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  1. #1
    Senior Member Cutlass's Avatar
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    Video: Silverado locking rear diff vs. Tundra posi

    I've never been a huge fan of GM's Gov-lock posi but I randomly came across this video showing its advantages over a normal clutch type posi.

    Last edited by Cutlass; 05-06-2012 at 10:44 AM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Too Fast's Avatar
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    Very enlightening video. I wonder how the Torsen would work in my car going up the 20% incline with those rollers. Any vids on those?

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    Former Mopar Man 2002ssslp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Too Fast View Post
    Very enlightening video. I wonder how the Torsen would work in my car going up the 20% incline with those rollers. Any vids on those?
    The Torsen is an all gear system without clutches so I think it should work like the Gov-Lock. Does anyone have info on how the Torsen compares to the Gov-Lock ?
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  4. #4
    Senior Member Cutlass's Avatar
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    I would love to know also, I know a guy who put a True-Trac (same as a Torsen) in his 04 Silverado

  5. #5
    Senior Member Too Fast's Avatar
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    Road trip. Let's get that guy to go to the 20% incline, and we'll try our cars also!


    I'd love to, but y'all know I'm J/K.

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    Stumbled upon this thread, thought I’d share some info.

    The newer 2007-onward Toyota Tundras have a conventional (open) rear differential. Toyota uses full electronic traction control (ETC) which is networked into both the engine and anti-lock breaking system (ABS) to control excessive wheel slip (spin).

    Electronic traction control or "Automatic Limited Slip Differential" (ALSD) in Toyota speak, mainly uses ABS. You can see it working (using the rear breaks, squeezing the rear wheels) in the video.

    Since most traction control systems take into account the amount of throttle being applied, more throttle would allow the traction control system to ABS "brake lock" the slipping wheel, simulating a rear differential lock.

    But they (the rival company) will not disclose that fact in a comparison.
    Last edited by TorqueTransfer; 06-24-2012 at 02:52 PM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member tatertot91's Avatar
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    That was pretty interesting to watch, definitely puts the two into perspective.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Cutlass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TorqueTransfer View Post
    Stumbled upon this thread, thought I’d share some info.

    The newer 2007-onward Toyota Tundras have a conventional (open) rear differential. Toyota uses full electronic traction control (ETC) which is networked into both the engine and anti-lock breaking system (ABS) to control excessive wheel slip (spin).

    Electronic traction control or "Automatic Limited Slip Differential" (ALSD) in Toyota speak, mainly uses ABS. You can see it working (using the rear breaks, squeezing the rear wheels) in the video.

    Since most traction control systems take into account the amount of throttle being applied, more throttle would allow the traction control system to ABS "brake lock" the slipping wheel, simulating a rear differential lock.

    But they (the rival company) will not disclose that fact in a comparison.
    Thats kinda crappy of Toyota to put a open diff in their Tundra. Looks like an open diff w/traction control doesn't work very well in comparison to GM's locker.
    I actually thought about this video the last couple days while pulling my jetski out of the water. The boat launch is slimey and slippery and I can feel one wheel spin for half a second then the gov-lock clicks over and the truck starts pulling up the ramp.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cutlass View Post
    ... Looks like an open diff w/traction control doesn't work very well in comparison to GM's locker.

    How effective electronic traction control is depends on two crucial factors: its control logic (software programming), and what vehicle systems it’s networked into.

    Not all traction control systems are created equal. If traction control is networked into both the engine control unit (ECU) and anti-lock braking system (ABS), and is programmed for off road used (i.e. has full ABS break control to allow for break locking, etc.), it can actually outperform any limited-slip differential, and even some types of locking differentials.

    I have not seen the programming for Toyota’s traction control system, (only authorized engineers/computer programmers will have access to that kind of information as its proprietary) so I cannot say whether or not the Tundra’s traction control has specific off road programming. I doubt it does.

    However, Toyota does have a four-wheel electronic traction control system that is programmed heavily for off road use, and uses it on the 2008-onward Toyota Land Cruiser (J200).

    The Land Cruiser relies solely on electronic traction control, rather than locking differentials. The front differential and rear differential are both conventional (open). The only lock it has is for the Torsen (torque sensing) torque-biasing center differential.

    Other 4x4s (quick list off the top of my head) that rely on traction control instead of differential locks are:

    Toyota Land Cruiser - already mentioned

    Lexus LX 570 - almost the same thing as a Land Cruiser

    Land-Rover Defender

    Land-Rover Discovery 2, 3, and 4 (called LR3 for 2005-2009 and now LR4 for 2010-present, here in the North American market)

    Land-Rover Range Rover - since 1993, responsible for first introducing electronic traction control as a 4x4 off road enhancement, used as a stand-in for rear differential locks, only rear-wheel enabled, gained four-wheel electronic traction control for 1999.

    Mercedes-Benz ML – since 1998, responsible for introducing four-wheel electronic traction control, worked at all four wheels. Four-wheel enabled traction control functions like having both front and rear differential locks.

    Mercedes-Benz GL

    Ford Expedition - since 2003

    Nissan Armada

    Ford F-150 - since 2009, 2010 saw changes to control logic when put into Four Low mode, control logic is similar to the Expedition’s.

    Hummer H1 - the original one, now discontinued

    Jeep (in general), various models including Wrangler, depending on which 4x4 systems they were/are equipped with. Grand Cherokee started using electronic traction control as a off road feature for 2005.

    Ram 1500 - said to be getting the four-wheel electronic traction control from the 2011-present Jeep Grand Cherokee for the 2013 model year, we shall see.
    Last edited by TorqueTransfer; 06-24-2012 at 08:32 PM.

  10. #10
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    This video is pretty good at showing how much tractive-force electronic traction control can provide when programmed (setup) correctly.




    The vehicle is a Land-Rover Defender 110 Station Wagon, and it uses nothing but ABS brake traction control, all drive axles have open differentials, yet it does what only a vehicle with locking differentials could do.

    Land-Rover has about the best traction control systems around, but to be fair, they have used it longer (since 1993), evolving it over the years. They were also the first to realize (when programmed properly) how much it improved the vehicle’s off road capability.

  11. #11
    Veteran 0rion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TorqueTransfer View Post
    Stumbled upon this thread, thought I’d share some info.

    The newer 2007-onward Toyota Tundras have a conventional (open) rear differential. Toyota uses full electronic traction control (ETC) which is networked into both the engine and anti-lock breaking system (ABS) to control excessive wheel slip (spin).

    Electronic traction control or "Automatic Limited Slip Differential" (ALSD) in Toyota speak, mainly uses ABS. You can see it working (using the rear breaks, squeezing the rear wheels) in the video.

    Since most traction control systems take into account the amount of throttle being applied, more throttle would allow the traction control system to ABS "brake lock" the slipping wheel, simulating a rear differential lock.

    But they (the rival company) will not disclose that fact in a comparison.
    I've read this a couple of times and I'm still unclear on what you're trying to say? The GM clearly outperformed the Tundra in that video....regardless of the reason or what wasn't disclosed.

  12. #12
    Senior Member REVNORR82's Avatar
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    Yea I agree the chevy is better I mean just look at any serious off road truck they have lockers not traction control systems give me the real thing not brakes applying and releasing.

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  13. #13
    Senior Member Cutlass's Avatar
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    We can sort of add the Cadillac Escalade to the list of traction controled AWD. It does have a rear gov-locker but the transfer case is like an open diff. So in order for it to transfer power to the front (like on a snow covered road) it needs to back off the engine power and apply the rear brakes. The result is a awful performing winter AWD vehicle. If you wanna give the truck a bunch of throttle to get the wheels spinning, the truck moving, and get some momentum going...you really can't because the engine is choked way down to no power and the brakes are applied.
    I'd rather have a mechanical 4wd, locking diff setup.
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  14. #14
    Veteran 0rion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cutlass View Post
    We can sort of add the Cadillac Escalade to the list of traction controled AWD. It does have a rear gov-locker but the transfer case is like an open diff. So in order for it to transfer power to the front (like on a snow covered road) it needs to back off the engine power and apply the rear brakes. The result is a awful performing winter AWD vehicle. If you wanna give the truck a bunch of throttle to get the wheels spinning, the truck moving, and get some momentum going...you really can't because the engine is choked way down to no power and the brakes are applied.
    I'd rather have a mechanical 4wd, locking diff setup.
    I think some of it is customer driven, some is cost driven, and some is technology driven. Everyone would like to have air lockers but that's just not going to happen. I personally miss the old days when you got out and locked the front hubs by hand. My wifes durango was awd and it was virtually seamless......which is what a woman wants when it comes to her vehicle. She also never got that thing in the mud either. My truck on the other gets in the mud pretty regularly and I hate the way it acts in the mud. You get it deep in mud and it doesn't know whether to shit or go blind. I think it flips a coin to determine which wheels are going to pull.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cutlass View Post
    We can sort of add the Cadillac Escalade to the list of traction controled AWD.
    Oh I agree having a four-wheel drive system looked after entirely by traction control will provided less than desirable performance in certain situations. That really is too much responsibility for any traction control system, no matter how advanced it is. Several auto makers have tried it, and moved on.

    Mercedes-Benz did it with the first M-Klasse (W163) from 1998-2005. Land-Rover tried it with the Discovery Series II (L50) from 1999-2003. BMW tired it with the X5 (E53) from 2000-2003.

    GM did try a similar system with the Cadillac Escalade, but it (like those above) is no longer in use. The permanent four-wheel drive system you a referring too is the one supplied by BorgWarner, and used a one-speed BorgWarner transfer case with open center differential.

    Currently the Cadillac Escalade has a automatic four-wheel drive system that uses a one-speed Magna Powertrain transfer case with torque biasing center multi-disc differential. Technically, there is no center differential, rather the multi-disc clutch pack does double-duty, performing the task of a center differential, and also torque biasing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cutlass View Post
    So in order for it to transfer power to the front (like on a snow covered road) it needs to back off the engine power and apply the rear brakes. The result is a awful performing winter AWD vehicle. If you wanna give the truck a bunch of throttle to get the wheels spinning, the truck moving, and get some momentum going...you really can't because the engine is choked way down to no power and the brakes are applied.
    I'd rather have a mechanical 4wd, locking diff setup.
    The part of electronic traction control that is networked into the engine (engine management) can always be disabled. Assuming it is networked into the engine.

    Some traction control systems use only the engine (like the Ford F-350/450 with dual rear wheels), some use only the ABS, but most use both engine and ABS.


    The Ford Expedition (for example) has four-wheel electronic traction control with "brake lock" logic, and allows the driver to disable the engine management portion of the traction control (the part of traction control that cuts throttle), so the V-8 engine is, in a word, "unleashed", free and unrestricted to rev up into it's power band, and produce more torque.

    As of 2010, the Expedition’s engine management is disabled automatically when put into Four Low (lock) mode. The ABS brake lock function always remains active to send torque to the wheels that need it.

    Ford had to reprogram the system to automatically disable engine management as dim witted owners complained the engine would seem choked, such as pulling a boat out of the water on a slipway. Reading the owners manual will tell you how to disable the engine management function of traction control, if that happens. In the case of the Ford Expedition, all the owners had to do was press the AdvanceTrac button once. A simple act that takes no more than a second to perform.

    But people rarely take the time to read and comprehend the information in the owner’s manual.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Cutlass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0rion View Post
    I think some of it is customer driven, some is cost driven, and some is technology driven. Everyone would like to have air lockers but that's just not going to happen. I personally miss the old days when you got out and locked the front hubs by hand. My wifes durango was awd and it was virtually seamless......which is what a woman wants when it comes to her vehicle. She also never got that thing in the mud either. My truck on the other gets in the mud pretty regularly and I hate the way it acts in the mud. You get it deep in mud and it doesn't know whether to shit or go blind. I think it flips a coin to determine which wheels are going to pull.

    True. But you should try a mid 2000s Escalade (and probably the Yukon Denali). They are just strange. Every other GM truck/SUV has a clutch, a set of gears, or viscous coupling transfer case to transmit torque to the front and rear. And you can choose how fast or slow you want to spin the tires to get going in the snow, ice or mud. The crappy Escalade/Yukon Denali system keeps detecting wheel spin and in response keeps choking back the engine power and applying the brakes. The result is you can't hardly climb any kind of snowy road on a hill. Its basically as useful as a 2wd truck in the snow.
    My old Jeep Grand Cherokee had open front and rear diffs and a viscous coupling full time AWD system. Thats about as inexpensive as it gets and that thing was nearly unstoppable in the snow...no joke

  17. #17
    Senior Member Cutlass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TorqueTransfer View Post
    Oh I agree having a four-wheel drive system looked after entirely by traction control will provided less than desirable performance in certain situations. That really is too much responsibility for any traction control system, no matter how advanced it is. Several auto makers have tried it, and moved on.
    Definitely agree! So is that how the Tundra system works??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cutlass View Post
    So is that how the Tundra system works??
    Not precisely. The Tundra does not have permanent four-wheel drive, or automatic four-wheel drive. Rather it has an "old-school" conventional four-wheel drive system, with a few high-tech improvements.

    Tundra 4x4s are outfitted with a two-speed dual range JF-Series JF1A transfer case that has electronic shift-on-the-move capability. It provides three drive modes; Two High, Four High, and Four Low.

    The front and rear propeller shafts are locked at all times in Four High and Four Low giving a permanent 50/50 torque split.

    The two-wheel Automatic Limited Slip Differential (Auto LSD) system is disabled in Four High and Four Low. It does not function in four-wheel drive.

    When the truck is put into either Four High or Four Low, four-wheel Active Traction Control (A-TRAC) system is activated automatically. The A-TRAC system is the same system found on the full-size Land Cruiser (J200).

    At that point (with A-TRAC enabled) the Tundra performs as if it has both a rear differential lock and a front differential lock. The driver can still steer the truck relatively easily even when A-TRAC is working at the front wheels transferring torque. Some attentive drivers may notice a tug at the steering wheel when the front axle is ABS brake locked.
    Last edited by TorqueTransfer; 06-25-2012 at 05:39 PM.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Cutlass's Avatar
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    Thanks!

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    People often confuse a posi with a locker. I am in the specialty lube business and I get these questions all the time especially with truck owners being told that have to use a limited slip additve in the locker, which btw will lead to premature failure.

    GM uses lockers in trucks and its code G80. GM uses limited slip (posi) in cars and its coded G80 and there is were confusion arises. Truckers always think they have a posi, old GM name for the limited slip differential used back in the muscle car days.

    Since 1999, the only truck to use a limited slip is the Quadrasteer, that was a Dana setup and was coded G86.


    Posi - short for Positraction Chevrolet trademark name


    Here is a short vid that 'splains this for those who would like to know.

    Last edited by ZZ71; 06-26-2012 at 03:07 AM.

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