Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 65
Like Tree1Likes

Video: Silverado locking rear diff vs. Tundra posi

This is a discussion on Video: Silverado locking rear diff vs. Tundra posi within the GM Trucks forums, part of the Vehicle Specific category; I've never been a huge fan of GM's Gov-lock posi but I randomly came across this video showing its advantages ...

  1. #1
    Moderator Cutlass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    6,997

    1999 Formula WS6 M6-sold
    2001 Silverado Z71

    Video: Silverado locking rear diff vs. Tundra posi

    I've never been a huge fan of GM's Gov-lock posi but I randomly came across this video showing its advantages over a normal clutch type posi.

    Last edited by Cutlass; 05-06-2012 at 11:44 AM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Too Fast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Age
    54
    Posts
    5,170

    Black
    2000 WS6 6spd Hooker LT

    Very enlightening video. I wonder how the Torsen would work in my car going up the 20% incline with those rollers. Any vids on those?

  3. #3
    Former Mopar Man 2002ssslp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Branchville, NJ
    Posts
    3,111

    Silver & Blue
    02 Camaro SS, 04 GTO

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Fast View Post
    Very enlightening video. I wonder how the Torsen would work in my car going up the 20% incline with those rollers. Any vids on those?
    The Torsen is an all gear system without clutches so I think it should work like the Gov-Lock. Does anyone have info on how the Torsen compares to the Gov-Lock ?
    My ride is a 2002 Camaro SS SLP #3296 with 30k, LTH, 3" Y, CME, Frost tune, K&N, ported TB, Blackwing lid, Bellows, MSD, Denso Iridium, and 85mm MAF, Bilsteins, Eibach springs, SLP strut brace, Adj. Panhard, TA Girdle, UMI, Pro 5.0, Nitto NT555
    My wife has a 2004 GTO with the rare SAP, 18" wheels, K&N Cold Air System, MSD, Ported TB, Frost tune, Denso Iridium, Flowmaster cat-back, 3200 Yank, 75k

  4. #4
    Moderator Cutlass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    6,997

    1999 Formula WS6 M6-sold
    2001 Silverado Z71

    I would love to know also, I know a guy who put a True-Trac (same as a Torsen) in his 04 Silverado

  5. #5
    Senior Member Too Fast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Age
    54
    Posts
    5,170

    Black
    2000 WS6 6spd Hooker LT

    Road trip. Let's get that guy to go to the 20% incline, and we'll try our cars also!


    I'd love to, but y'all know I'm J/K.

  6. #6
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Somewhere
    Posts
    14
    Stumbled upon this thread, thought I’d share some info.

    The newer 2007-onward Toyota Tundras have a conventional (open) rear differential. Toyota uses full electronic traction control (ETC) which is networked into both the engine and anti-lock breaking system (ABS) to control excessive wheel slip (spin).

    Electronic traction control or "Automatic Limited Slip Differential" (ALSD) in Toyota speak, mainly uses ABS. You can see it working (using the rear breaks, squeezing the rear wheels) in the video.

    Since most traction control systems take into account the amount of throttle being applied, more throttle would allow the traction control system to ABS "brake lock" the slipping wheel, simulating a rear differential lock.

    But they (the rival company) will not disclose that fact in a comparison.
    Last edited by TorqueTransfer; 06-24-2012 at 03:52 PM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member tatertot91's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Coral Springs, Fl
    Posts
    5,773

    Sunset Orange Metalic
    2001 Camaro SS

    That was pretty interesting to watch, definitely puts the two into perspective.

  8. #8
    Moderator Cutlass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    6,997

    1999 Formula WS6 M6-sold
    2001 Silverado Z71

    Quote Originally Posted by TorqueTransfer View Post
    Stumbled upon this thread, thought I’d share some info.

    The newer 2007-onward Toyota Tundras have a conventional (open) rear differential. Toyota uses full electronic traction control (ETC) which is networked into both the engine and anti-lock breaking system (ABS) to control excessive wheel slip (spin).

    Electronic traction control or "Automatic Limited Slip Differential" (ALSD) in Toyota speak, mainly uses ABS. You can see it working (using the rear breaks, squeezing the rear wheels) in the video.

    Since most traction control systems take into account the amount of throttle being applied, more throttle would allow the traction control system to ABS "brake lock" the slipping wheel, simulating a rear differential lock.

    But they (the rival company) will not disclose that fact in a comparison.
    Thats kinda crappy of Toyota to put a open diff in their Tundra. Looks like an open diff w/traction control doesn't work very well in comparison to GM's locker.
    I actually thought about this video the last couple days while pulling my jetski out of the water. The boat launch is slimey and slippery and I can feel one wheel spin for half a second then the gov-lock clicks over and the truck starts pulling up the ramp.

  9. #9
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Somewhere
    Posts
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by Cutlass View Post
    ... Looks like an open diff w/traction control doesn't work very well in comparison to GM's locker.

    How effective electronic traction control is depends on two crucial factors: its control logic (software programming), and what vehicle systems it’s networked into.

    Not all traction control systems are created equal. If traction control is networked into both the engine control unit (ECU) and anti-lock braking system (ABS), and is programmed for off road used (i.e. has full ABS break control to allow for break locking, etc.), it can actually outperform any limited-slip differential, and even some types of locking differentials.

    I have not seen the programming for Toyota’s traction control system, (only authorized engineers/computer programmers will have access to that kind of information as its proprietary) so I cannot say whether or not the Tundra’s traction control has specific off road programming. I doubt it does.

    However, Toyota does have a four-wheel electronic traction control system that is programmed heavily for off road use, and uses it on the 2008-onward Toyota Land Cruiser (J200).

    The Land Cruiser relies solely on electronic traction control, rather than locking differentials. The front differential and rear differential are both conventional (open). The only lock it has is for the Torsen (torque sensing) torque-biasing center differential.

    Other 4x4s (quick list off the top of my head) that rely on traction control instead of differential locks are:

    Toyota Land Cruiser - already mentioned

    Lexus LX 570 - almost the same thing as a Land Cruiser

    Land-Rover Defender

    Land-Rover Discovery 2, 3, and 4 (called LR3 for 2005-2009 and now LR4 for 2010-present, here in the North American market)

    Land-Rover Range Rover - since 1993, responsible for first introducing electronic traction control as a 4x4 off road enhancement, used as a stand-in for rear differential locks, only rear-wheel enabled, gained four-wheel electronic traction control for 1999.

    Mercedes-Benz ML – since 1998, responsible for introducing four-wheel electronic traction control, worked at all four wheels. Four-wheel enabled traction control functions like having both front and rear differential locks.

    Mercedes-Benz GL

    Ford Expedition - since 2003

    Nissan Armada

    Ford F-150 - since 2009, 2010 saw changes to control logic when put into Four Low mode, control logic is similar to the Expedition’s.

    Hummer H1 - the original one, now discontinued

    Jeep (in general), various models including Wrangler, depending on which 4x4 systems they were/are equipped with. Grand Cherokee started using electronic traction control as a off road feature for 2005.

    Ram 1500 - said to be getting the four-wheel electronic traction control from the 2011-present Jeep Grand Cherokee for the 2013 model year, we shall see.
    Last edited by TorqueTransfer; 06-24-2012 at 09:32 PM.

  10. #10
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Somewhere
    Posts
    14
    This video is pretty good at showing how much tractive-force electronic traction control can provide when programmed (setup) correctly.




    The vehicle is a Land-Rover Defender 110 Station Wagon, and it uses nothing but ABS brake traction control, all drive axles have open differentials, yet it does what only a vehicle with locking differentials could do.

    Land-Rover has about the best traction control systems around, but to be fair, they have used it longer (since 1993), evolving it over the years. They were also the first to realize (when programmed properly) how much it improved the vehicle’s off road capability.

  11. #11
    Veteran 0rion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    ohio
    Posts
    22,520

    98 Formula
    06 duramax

    Quote Originally Posted by TorqueTransfer View Post
    Stumbled upon this thread, thought I’d share some info.

    The newer 2007-onward Toyota Tundras have a conventional (open) rear differential. Toyota uses full electronic traction control (ETC) which is networked into both the engine and anti-lock breaking system (ABS) to control excessive wheel slip (spin).

    Electronic traction control or "Automatic Limited Slip Differential" (ALSD) in Toyota speak, mainly uses ABS. You can see it working (using the rear breaks, squeezing the rear wheels) in the video.

    Since most traction control systems take into account the amount of throttle being applied, more throttle would allow the traction control system to ABS "brake lock" the slipping wheel, simulating a rear differential lock.

    But they (the rival company) will not disclose that fact in a comparison.
    I've read this a couple of times and I'm still unclear on what you're trying to say? The GM clearly outperformed the Tundra in that video....regardless of the reason or what wasn't disclosed.

  12. #12
    Senior Member REVNORR82's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    NEW ALBANY
    Posts
    1,462

    silver
    2002 ws6 ta convertible

    Yea I agree the chevy is better I mean just look at any serious off road truck they have lockers not traction control systems give me the real thing not brakes applying and releasing.

    Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
    2002 WS6 TA VERT M6 HOOKER SUPER COMPS ORY AND CAT BACK TUNE DONE BY CHARLES AT GREAD TUNNING!!

    2007 Z71 EXTENDED CAB PROGRAMMER COLD AIR
    TRUE DUALS

  13. #13
    Moderator Cutlass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    6,997

    1999 Formula WS6 M6-sold
    2001 Silverado Z71

    We can sort of add the Cadillac Escalade to the list of traction controled AWD. It does have a rear gov-locker but the transfer case is like an open diff. So in order for it to transfer power to the front (like on a snow covered road) it needs to back off the engine power and apply the rear brakes. The result is a awful performing winter AWD vehicle. If you wanna give the truck a bunch of throttle to get the wheels spinning, the truck moving, and get some momentum going...you really can't because the engine is choked way down to no power and the brakes are applied.
    I'd rather have a mechanical 4wd, locking diff setup.
    -------------------------------------
    Kooks 1 7/8" race headers, Kooks ORY, Borla catback, Nitto 555R, LS6 intake manifold, Shaner S3 ported stock throttle body, SLP lid, smooth bellows, JAAM Ram Air kit, Elite Engineering catch can, LS6 valley cover, EGR and AIR deleted, Frost tune, and Simpson Racing child car seat in the back. 13.2 @ 108MPH

  14. #14
    Veteran 0rion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    ohio
    Posts
    22,520

    98 Formula
    06 duramax

    Quote Originally Posted by Cutlass View Post
    We can sort of add the Cadillac Escalade to the list of traction controled AWD. It does have a rear gov-locker but the transfer case is like an open diff. So in order for it to transfer power to the front (like on a snow covered road) it needs to back off the engine power and apply the rear brakes. The result is a awful performing winter AWD vehicle. If you wanna give the truck a bunch of throttle to get the wheels spinning, the truck moving, and get some momentum going...you really can't because the engine is choked way down to no power and the brakes are applied.
    I'd rather have a mechanical 4wd, locking diff setup.
    I think some of it is customer driven, some is cost driven, and some is technology driven. Everyone would like to have air lockers but that's just not going to happen. I personally miss the old days when you got out and locked the front hubs by hand. My wifes durango was awd and it was virtually seamless......which is what a woman wants when it comes to her vehicle. She also never got that thing in the mud either. My truck on the other gets in the mud pretty regularly and I hate the way it acts in the mud. You get it deep in mud and it doesn't know whether to shit or go blind. I think it flips a coin to determine which wheels are going to pull.

  15. #15
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Somewhere
    Posts
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by Cutlass View Post
    We can sort of add the Cadillac Escalade to the list of traction controled AWD.
    Oh I agree having a four-wheel drive system looked after entirely by traction control will provided less than desirable performance in certain situations. That really is too much responsibility for any traction control system, no matter how advanced it is. Several auto makers have tried it, and moved on.

    Mercedes-Benz did it with the first M-Klasse (W163) from 1998-2005. Land-Rover tried it with the Discovery Series II (L50) from 1999-2003. BMW tired it with the X5 (E53) from 2000-2003.

    GM did try a similar system with the Cadillac Escalade, but it (like those above) is no longer in use. The permanent four-wheel drive system you a referring too is the one supplied by BorgWarner, and used a one-speed BorgWarner transfer case with open center differential.

    Currently the Cadillac Escalade has a automatic four-wheel drive system that uses a one-speed Magna Powertrain transfer case with torque biasing center multi-disc differential. Technically, there is no center differential, rather the multi-disc clutch pack does double-duty, performing the task of a center differential, and also torque biasing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cutlass View Post
    So in order for it to transfer power to the front (like on a snow covered road) it needs to back off the engine power and apply the rear brakes. The result is a awful performing winter AWD vehicle. If you wanna give the truck a bunch of throttle to get the wheels spinning, the truck moving, and get some momentum going...you really can't because the engine is choked way down to no power and the brakes are applied.
    I'd rather have a mechanical 4wd, locking diff setup.
    The part of electronic traction control that is networked into the engine (engine management) can always be disabled. Assuming it is networked into the engine.

    Some traction control systems use only the engine (like the Ford F-350/450 with dual rear wheels), some use only the ABS, but most use both engine and ABS.


    The Ford Expedition (for example) has four-wheel electronic traction control with "brake lock" logic, and allows the driver to disable the engine management portion of the traction control (the part of traction control that cuts throttle), so the V-8 engine is, in a word, "unleashed", free and unrestricted to rev up into it's power band, and produce more torque.

    As of 2010, the Expedition’s engine management is disabled automatically when put into Four Low (lock) mode. The ABS brake lock function always remains active to send torque to the wheels that need it.

    Ford had to reprogram the system to automatically disable engine management as dim witted owners complained the engine would seem choked, such as pulling a boat out of the water on a slipway. Reading the owners manual will tell you how to disable the engine management function of traction control, if that happens. In the case of the Ford Expedition, all the owners had to do was press the AdvanceTrac button once. A simple act that takes no more than a second to perform.

    But people rarely take the time to read and comprehend the information in the owner’s manual.

  16. #16
    Moderator Cutlass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    6,997

    1999 Formula WS6 M6-sold
    2001 Silverado Z71

    Quote Originally Posted by 0rion View Post
    I think some of it is customer driven, some is cost driven, and some is technology driven. Everyone would like to have air lockers but that's just not going to happen. I personally miss the old days when you got out and locked the front hubs by hand. My wifes durango was awd and it was virtually seamless......which is what a woman wants when it comes to her vehicle. She also never got that thing in the mud either. My truck on the other gets in the mud pretty regularly and I hate the way it acts in the mud. You get it deep in mud and it doesn't know whether to shit or go blind. I think it flips a coin to determine which wheels are going to pull.

    True. But you should try a mid 2000s Escalade (and probably the Yukon Denali). They are just strange. Every other GM truck/SUV has a clutch, a set of gears, or viscous coupling transfer case to transmit torque to the front and rear. And you can choose how fast or slow you want to spin the tires to get going in the snow, ice or mud. The crappy Escalade/Yukon Denali system keeps detecting wheel spin and in response keeps choking back the engine power and applying the brakes. The result is you can't hardly climb any kind of snowy road on a hill. Its basically as useful as a 2wd truck in the snow.
    My old Jeep Grand Cherokee had open front and rear diffs and a viscous coupling full time AWD system. Thats about as inexpensive as it gets and that thing was nearly unstoppable in the snow...no joke

  17. #17
    Moderator Cutlass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    6,997

    1999 Formula WS6 M6-sold
    2001 Silverado Z71

    Quote Originally Posted by TorqueTransfer View Post
    Oh I agree having a four-wheel drive system looked after entirely by traction control will provided less than desirable performance in certain situations. That really is too much responsibility for any traction control system, no matter how advanced it is. Several auto makers have tried it, and moved on.
    Definitely agree! So is that how the Tundra system works??

  18. #18
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Somewhere
    Posts
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by Cutlass View Post
    So is that how the Tundra system works??
    Not precisely. The Tundra does not have permanent four-wheel drive, or automatic four-wheel drive. Rather it has an "old-school" conventional four-wheel drive system, with a few high-tech improvements.

    Tundra 4x4s are outfitted with a two-speed dual range JF-Series JF1A transfer case that has electronic shift-on-the-move capability. It provides three drive modes; Two High, Four High, and Four Low.

    The front and rear propeller shafts are locked at all times in Four High and Four Low giving a permanent 50/50 torque split.

    The two-wheel Automatic Limited Slip Differential (Auto LSD) system is disabled in Four High and Four Low. It does not function in four-wheel drive.

    When the truck is put into either Four High or Four Low, four-wheel Active Traction Control (A-TRAC) system is activated automatically. The A-TRAC system is the same system found on the full-size Land Cruiser (J200).

    At that point (with A-TRAC enabled) the Tundra performs as if it has both a rear differential lock and a front differential lock. The driver can still steer the truck relatively easily even when A-TRAC is working at the front wheels transferring torque. Some attentive drivers may notice a tug at the steering wheel when the front axle is ABS brake locked.
    Last edited by TorqueTransfer; 06-25-2012 at 06:39 PM.

  19. #19
    Moderator Cutlass's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    6,997

    1999 Formula WS6 M6-sold
    2001 Silverado Z71

    Thanks!

  20. #20
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    9

    '09 Cadillac CTS4
    '12 GMC Sierra Denali 6.2

    People often confuse a posi with a locker. I am in the specialty lube business and I get these questions all the time especially with truck owners being told that have to use a limited slip additve in the locker, which btw will lead to premature failure.

    GM uses lockers in trucks and its code G80. GM uses limited slip (posi) in cars and its coded G80 and there is were confusion arises. Truckers always think they have a posi, old GM name for the limited slip differential used back in the muscle car days.

    Since 1999, the only truck to use a limited slip is the Quadrasteer, that was a Dana setup and was coded G86.


    Posi - short for Positraction Chevrolet trademark name


    Here is a short vid that 'splains this for those who would like to know.

    Last edited by ZZ71; 06-26-2012 at 04:07 AM.

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

LinkBacks (?)

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. '05 Silverado Rear Brakes Locking
    By pajeff02 in forum GM Trucks
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 10-13-2010, 09:13 AM
  2. WANTED: 12 bolt Posi diff. (33 spline)
    By 9t8z28 in forum Parts Wanted / Trade
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-24-2009, 03:35 PM
  3. killed ss silverado and tundra (with my duramax)
    By jmadden in forum Kill Stories
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 09-18-2008, 11:44 AM
  4. Posi Diff question?
    By mglangley21 in forum Drivetrain
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-27-2007, 06:25 AM
  5. MTX Thunderform Box / Auburn POSI diff + 4.10 gears
    By StillSmokin in forum Parts For Sale / Trade
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 04-10-2006, 09:47 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •