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about time......

This is a discussion on about time...... within the GM Trucks forums, part of the Vehicle Specific category; It'll be a couple of years before I have to go truck shopping again. I generally go with pre-owned vehicles ...

  1. #21
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    It'll be a couple of years before I have to go truck shopping again. I generally go with pre-owned vehicles versus new.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5.0THIS View Post
    My uncle just got a brand new 2013 Dmax truck. Crew cab, 2500 4x4, LT, 18 inch alloys, backup cam, running boards etc, for 43k. Just got to look for dealers willing to deal. MSRP was well into the 50s.



    Nissan builds an exceptionally shitty truck, but even they're smart enough to engineer a suspension that is appropriate for a truck with powertrain. You make it sound like they're not going to change anything from the regular Titan. I'm sure they will.



    .
    On prices, I was comparing 1 tons to my current 79 1 ton in an attempt to stay on the same playing field, and they are much more expensive than $43k around here. Close to $60k for the truck I wanted. I couldn't justify the price at the time for the minimal gains over what I had. They don't deal on Diesels out here much at all either. The diesel is more popular out here than back east, and I assume it's all the ranchers and large properties around these parts, you'll find a big diesel truck sitting in just about every other driveway. And when you don't have a problem selling a truck like this, they just don't deal on prices much at all. Matter of fact I ended up going to Texas to by mine since that state had the largest selection and concentration of diesels. I would imagine in smaller states back east they would be more likely to deal. But the diesel package will still add about $7-$8k over the price of a similar gas truck right off the bat.

    As far as the second comment, it's still a half ton,,,,nuff said
    Last edited by Firebirdjones; 08-28-2013 at 06:16 AM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by pajeff02 View Post
    It'll be a couple of years before I have to go truck shopping again. I generally go with pre-owned vehicles versus new.
    And that's exactly what I did Jeff. The Dmax was still a solid $8k higher in price used than a comparable used gas engine truck. I can buy 6-7 year old 3/4 ton 6.0's all day long out here for $12-$14k if you are lucky enough to find them with 100k miles or less.
    Not so with the Diesels, they are $20k and on up in price, generally $24-$26k in most cases.

    My problem was that buying a 3/4 ton with a 6.0 or even the 6.2 would be a step down in pulling power over my current 79 1 ton. GM doesn't use the big blocks anymore, and I've installed a 502 for even more grunt. So none of that stuff they offer now even interested me. I had to go Diesel if I was going to improve on what I already had.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5.0THIS View Post
    Good, it should be a V8, for packaging alone. Cummins guys are some of the most stubborn truck guys ever, with their heads buried so far up their asses that they cant see that their precious inline 6 that's in the current Rams has seen its day, and needs to go bye bye. They can keep upping the boost and getting those great peak numbers, but that motor is well beyond its initial design envelope. It's being outclassed by the Duramax when it comes to real world performance.
    It should be a v8?
    How many semi trucks have v8's? lol

    You want max torque from idle? its got to be an I6

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    LS1 or bust b.lee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Finally wised up Probably time for a change I would think.
    There is reason they put v8's in sports cars and I6's in semi's .....dont fix it if it aint broke. =)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    On prices, I was comparing 1 tons to my current 79 1 ton in an attempt to stay on the same playing field, and they are much more expensive than $43k around here. Close to $60k for the truck I wanted. I couldn't justify the price at the time for the minimal gains over what I had. They don't deal on Diesels out here much at all either. The diesel is more popular out here than back east, and I assume it's all the ranchers and large properties around these parts, you'll find a big diesel truck sitting in just about every other driveway. And when you don't have a problem selling a truck like this, they just don't deal on prices much at all. Matter of fact I ended up going to Texas to by mine since that state had the largest selection and concentration of diesels. I would imagine in smaller states back east they would be more likely to deal. But the diesel package will still add about $7-$8k over the price of a similar gas truck right off the bat.

    As far as the second comment, it's still a half ton,,,,nuff said
    My uncle's truck was over 10k off MSRP. Definitely worth traveling for. And this is in Colorado. We have more ranches and "large properties" up here than you do down in the desert

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    My problem was that buying a 3/4 ton with a 6.0 or even the 6.2 would be a step down in pulling power over my current 79 1 ton. GM doesn't use the big blocks anymore, and I've installed a 502 for even more grunt. So none of that stuff they offer now even interested me. I had to go Diesel if I was going to improve on what I already had.
    I'll take a new 6.2 over an old carbed relatively stock 502 any day. Better engine in every single way.

    Quote Originally Posted by b.lee View Post
    It should be a v8?
    How many semi trucks have v8's? lol

    You want max torque from idle? its got to be an I6
    I'll keep that in mind next time I see a duramax truck raping the shit out of a cummins ram. The dyno curves don't support your theory, at least not in the light duty trucks from a performance standpoint. And BTW, Cummins, Cat, Mack, and Detroit all make V style diesel engines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5.0THIS View Post
    My uncle's truck was over 10k off MSRP. Definitely worth traveling for. And this is in Colorado. We have more ranches and "large properties" up here than you do down in the desert



    I'll take a new 6.2 over an old carbed relatively stock 502 any day. Better engine in every single way.


    More ranches in the desert than you might suspect

    6.0-6.2 lacks one very important thing when it comes to towing and that's torque baby It just doesn't even come close to the grunt that 502 makes (dyno'd at 540)

    My father has a newer 3/4 ton truck with the 6.0, nice truck and all that stuff. But when it came to towing I ran circles around him even when I had the 454 in my 79. We towed side by side for years with open car trailers and 4,000 lbs. cars on the back. Towed all over the three state area when living in Ohio. Even slight grades (and I"m talking slight) going up I-75 and my old 79 would run off and leave him every time. Try that out here with 7% mountain grades and it's just laughable Leaving a red light? PFFFF see ya. I had to constantly back peddle so he could catch up. Not only that, but I got 12 mpg towing, and he got 10 mpg.

    Sorry to say, as much as I like the new trucks, and they are nice, but if you stick with the gas engine you are stuck with relatively small ~370 cubes. Not a big torque engine, especially with those big square port heads they use now. They make more power upstares, but that's not what you want in a tow situation. GM sort of shot themselves in the foot for those that prefer a gas engine and have big loads to tow in that they don't offer the BBC anymore.
    If you want real pull power in a truck the only thing out there is a turbo diesel.

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    Senior Member 5.0THIS's Avatar
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    I don't think the difference is as big as you make it sound. And the newer engine is still better in every single way as far as I'm concerned. I'd live with a slight disadvantage towing for better everything else the rest of the time.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5.0THIS View Post
    I don't think the difference is as big as you make it sound. And the newer engine is still better in every single way as far as I'm concerned. I'd live with a slight disadvantage towing for better everything else the rest of the time.
    It is that big of a difference. Just doesn't compare in the tow department, and frankly that's the entire reason of owning a truck (myself). I can't tow a 28' enlcosed with moms 4th gen

    Where does that 6.2 make peak torque? I'd bet it's probably isn't much more than 430-440 ft lbs. Not bad but the problem is it likely makes that at what.....36-3800 rpms??? Not a good towing scenario. You need grunt off idle with a flat curve.

    My 502 starts making 500 ft lbs. at 1800 rpms and peaks at 540 ft lbs. at 2800 rpms (my cruising speed so that's perfect) and it carries that 500+ ft lbs. all the way to 4400 rpms. The 6.0-6.2 can't compete with that. Been there done that. My fathers truck constantly hunts for a gear on grades when towing, that's what killed his mileage I think. He had to push it pretty hard to try and keep up on the grades, still falling back not wanting to beat the crap out of it which I completely understand.
    Don't get me wrong, I like the new trucks, but I need a Dmax to compare (and do even better) than my old 79 in the towing compartment. Even gas mileage is comparable. I get 14 mpg out of that old thing empty, with a carb and no overdrive. Haven't heard an owner yet jumping for joy at the mileage they get out of those 6.2's
    I do like them however, they make some HP with some mods and a tune. I had my 6.0 running pretty good with just a tune, exhaust and intake, and it returned decent mileage after that, with an overdrive and 3.73's I got 17/22 city/highway in a 4x4 5,000 lbs. blazer.

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    Diesel V8's? When I went to engineering school I was working at Mack Trucks in Allentown. I got to go for a ride on the chassis dyno in a brand new truck sporting the Mack Magnum V8 engine. That was cool as hell even though we kept blowing the hoses off the induction port.

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    my opinion is that even though cummins makes a pretty decent diesel engine the duramax is a better engine. Makes more power and is just as durable. People still have the thoughts of those early GM engines in their minds when they do the comparisons but the duramax is light years ahead of those engines.

  12. #32
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    I'm sold on the Dmax, and I owe that partly to you Tim. They have been out long enough to get the bugs ironed out, and have proven to be a pretty durable package. Very quiet for a diesel and smooth power. I wasn't overly impressed in stock form but after a simple exhaust, intake mods, and a tune it was like flipping a light switch. Fun to drive now Best part about turbos, very easy to turn up the wick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    It is that big of a difference. Just doesn't compare in the tow department, and frankly that's the entire reason of owning a truck (myself). I can't tow a 28' enlcosed with moms 4th gen

    Where does that 6.2 make peak torque? I'd bet it's probably isn't much more than 430-440 ft lbs. Not bad but the problem is it likely makes that at what.....36-3800 rpms??? Not a good towing scenario. You need grunt off idle with a flat curve.

    My 502 starts making 500 ft lbs. at 1800 rpms and peaks at 540 ft lbs. at 2800 rpms (my cruising speed so that's perfect) and it carries that 500+ ft lbs. all the way to 4400 rpms. The 6.0-6.2 can't compete with that. Been there done that. My fathers truck constantly hunts for a gear on grades when towing, that's what killed his mileage I think. He had to push it pretty hard to try and keep up on the grades, still falling back not wanting to beat the crap out of it which I completely understand.
    Don't get me wrong, I like the new trucks, but I need a Dmax to compare (and do even better) than my old 79 in the towing compartment. Even gas mileage is comparable. I get 14 mpg out of that old thing empty, with a carb and no overdrive. Haven't heard an owner yet jumping for joy at the mileage they get out of those 6.2's
    I do like them however, they make some HP with some mods and a tune. I had my 6.0 running pretty good with just a tune, exhaust and intake, and it returned decent mileage after that, with an overdrive and 3.73's I got 17/22 city/highway in a 4x4 5,000 lbs. blazer.
    The new 6 speed alone closes more than half the gap between your obviously built 502 and a bone stock 6.2. A 3 speed sucks, and you lose soooo much not keeping the engine in the powerband. That's why the new 6 speed trucks run so much better. I'll give you the fact that a new 6.2 is fairly neutered with the factory tune. I bet an otherwise stock 6.2/6 speed with a tune would tow right with your 502, get better mileage, run circles around it unloaded, have infinitely better drivability, be more reliable, and have a much better axle and suspension behind it. I guess my point was that I wouldn't take the MINUTE better towing for completely sucking otherwise in comparison. But you're right, the diesels are where it is at.

    Oh and also, I bet if you look at the tow rating on your old truck, it's nowhere close to the new truck. I only mention it because you were so keen on the Nissan sucking because it was being overloaded. New truck with 6.2> old truck with ANY engine

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    ^^ Even the "4 speed" sucks in our Suburban. The jump from 2nd to 3rd is huge and you really have to pay attention on hills pulling a load to make sure it stays in the power band without kicking down and screaming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Where does that 6.2 make peak torque? I'd bet it's probably isn't much more than 430-440 ft lbs. Not bad but the problem is it likely makes that at what.....36-3800 rpms??? Not a good towing scenario. You need grunt off idle with a flat curve.
    You'd be lucky if it was down that low. the LS series engines make peak torque above 4000 rpm

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5.0THIS View Post
    The new 6 speed alone closes more than half the gap between your obviously built 502 and a bone stock 6.2. A 3 speed sucks, and you lose soooo much not keeping the engine in the powerband. That's why the new 6 speed trucks run so much better. I'll give you the fact that a new 6.2 is fairly neutered with the factory tune. I bet an otherwise stock 6.2/6 speed with a tune would tow right with your 502, get better mileage, run circles around it unloaded, have infinitely better drivability, be more reliable, and have a much better axle and suspension behind it. I guess my point was that I wouldn't take the MINUTE better towing for completely sucking otherwise in comparison. But you're right, the diesels are where it is at.

    Oh and also, I bet if you look at the tow rating on your old truck, it's nowhere close to the new truck. I only mention it because you were so keen on the Nissan sucking because it was being overloaded. New truck with 6.2> old truck with ANY engine
    Not a built 502, it's a GM crate 502HT truck engine built specifically as a replacement for these old trucks factory equipped with 454's, designed to pass smog etc.... Stock right out of the crate. GM under rates these engines quite a bit, as they do with everything. Mine was on the dyno and exceded the GM rating by 47HP and 40 ft lbs. of torque.

    I highly doubt the GVW on a half ton truck is higher than the GVW on my 1 ton. It wasn't just nissan I was squawking about, it's the public overloading these lightweight trucks in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pajeff02 View Post
    ^^ Even the "4 speed" sucks in our Suburban. The jump from 2nd to 3rd is huge and you really have to pay attention on hills pulling a load to make sure it stays in the power band without kicking down and screaming.
    Yep, and that's all fine and it works, but it sure is a bit un-nurving. My fathers 3/4 ton, even with the bigger engine, is always hunting for a gear to maintain speed on grades while towing. To keep from abusing the engine/trans he is forced to just slow it down on the hills.
    Last thing you want is the engine screaming in second gear while trying to climb a 7% grade for about 8 miles. I guarantee it will overheat before it reaches the top. I see that all the time here. No place to pull over when climbing the mountain either. Even alot of your tractor trailers don't make the climb in the summer months.
    You've been out here Jeff, if you came up I-17 from Phoenix heading towards Prescott and Sedona you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.
    Last edited by Firebirdjones; 08-29-2013 at 06:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5.0THIS View Post
    I'll keep that in mind next time I see a duramax truck raping the shit out of a cummins ram. The dyno curves don't support your theory, at least not in the light duty trucks from a performance standpoint. And BTW, Cummins, Cat, Mack, and Detroit all make V style diesel engines.
    Raping as in racing?
    Ya I6 Cummins aren't good at racing. They are good at towing though.

    I guess I'm stuck in the old days, I couldn't afford a new diesel anyways, lol ... IMO Cummins was the best diesel in a pickup from 88-02ish (give or take a few years)

    If I was going to get another diesel it would be a 1998 12 valve Cummins

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Not a built 502, it's a GM crate 502HT truck engine built specifically as a replacement for these old trucks factory equipped with 454's, designed to pass smog etc.... Stock right out of the crate. GM under rates these engines quite a bit, as they do with everything. Mine was on the dyno and exceded the GM rating by 47HP and 40 ft lbs. of torque.

    I highly doubt the GVW on a half ton truck is higher than the GVW on my 1 ton. It wasn't just nissan I was squawking about, it's the public overloading these lightweight trucks in general.
    A new 3/4 ton with the 6.2 has an infinitely better suspension and drivetrain than your old 1 ton. It ought to though, it's a brand new truck.

    Quote Originally Posted by b.lee View Post
    Raping as in racing?
    Ya I6 Cummins aren't good at racing. They are good at towing though.

    I guess I'm stuck in the old days, I couldn't afford a new diesel anyways, lol ... IMO Cummins was the best diesel in a pickup from 88-02ish (give or take a few years)

    If I was going to get another diesel it would be a 1998 12 valve Cummins
    No, raping as in instrumented testing with loads or without, factory trucks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5.0THIS View Post
    A new 3/4 ton with the 6.2 has an infinitely better suspension and drivetrain than your old 1 ton. It ought to though, it's a brand new truck.
    Problem is...you can't get the 6.2 in a 3/4 ton. Your stuck with the 6.0 or the Dmax.

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