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Muscle Cars already looking strong this year...

This is a discussion on Muscle Cars already looking strong this year... within the Classic Muscle forums, part of the Vehicle Specific category; Watched the first segment of Barrett Jackson last night. Supposed to be the cheapest night but I saw some encouraging ...

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Muscle Cars already looking strong this year...

    Watched the first segment of Barrett Jackson last night. Supposed to be the cheapest night but I saw some encouraging numbers from many cars already.

    2nd gen F-bodies look as though they are going to be a hot item. A plain jain 73 T/A sold for $50,000 and it wasn't even a Super Duty...
    Then watched a pair of second gens, a 77 and a 79, considered from the smog era,,,,fetch $25,000 a piece. I knew these had started to gather a following from the local car circle in the past year. Looks like good things to come.

    Also saw a pair of big block Chevelles grab $45,000 each,,,and neither had their original engines.
    A 71 Charger 440/4speed fetched $50,000. Looks like Dodge/Chrysler is going to have another strong showing this year. Can't wait to see what the E-bodies grab later this week.

    Didn't see any Fords worth mentioning but if this is any indication so far, I'm sure they will be just as popular as last year.
    Interested to see what some of the heavy hitting Detroit iron brings on Fri/Sat.

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    Well that show mostly had damn near perfect cars, most probably have number matching. If not, nice built customs. But that Auction is for a bunch of rich bastards. You can easily buy those cars for cheaper else where. 79-81 T/A... I can point out number of of them under $10,000 in good shape, if it's a LE then those always more.

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    Barrett-Jackson is the fairyland of shows.

    Most educated buyers would never show their face there. Look into the fraud claims for buyers. There are many and most buyers win.

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    You all might not like it, but it doesn't change the fact that they tend to set the pace for what is to come within the next year.

    Like it or lump it,,,,it is what it is...

    I've been to Barrett Jackson, and I can personally tell you not all of these cars are prestine show pieces. There are more than 80% of these cars that have flaws.
    Only the handfull that are actually inside the bidding area (that you see on TV) are what I would call nearly perfect.
    The rest sit outside under tents (probably 900+),,,,and they are by no means perfect.

    With that aside, I see the muscle car market is going to be strong again, as last night saw some good numbers for big block chevys again. Even a Cobra Jet mustang grabbed $62,000.
    Some not so nice,,,(or not perfect,,,however you want to look at it) 69 Z28's were grabbing $50,000 pretty consistently.
    As I said,,,wait till Friday/Saturday. There are a dozen 69Z's inside the main arena that are the high dollar near perfect examples. They will fetch $70-$80,000 easily this weekend.
    That's the difference between the "OKAY" cars and the better "CORRECT" examples. You'll notice the prices will reflect that.

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    Cut and Paste from Team Camaro web site
    As a collector car journalist, I have been watching the Barrett-Jackson auction for years. For the last five or so years, it has been very apparent that the Scottsdale auction is at best a bastion of greed and manipulation…and at worse, all-out fraud.

    I’ve discussed B-J with collectors, dealers and enthusiasts, many of whom would be considered “insiders,” meaning they’ve bought and sold cars at B-J and other auctions, or are well-known in the collector car hobby. For some reason, it is this year that people are all finally grumbling and passing rumors in unison.

    The bottom line is that Craig Jackson and the B-J company have really screwed themselves this year. Their contracts specifically promise every car three minutes on the stand. Due to ego and greed, they expanded the Scottsdale ’07 auction to the point they could not provide this, plus they had the audacity to do it on live television.

    A well-known former head judge in the Ford Thunderbird circles was one of the sellers who had his car short-timed. He has already filed a law suit against B-J, and this is already headed towards class-action status.
    According to this judge and other sources, it appears Barrett-Jackson was operating a bit on the same level as an evangelical healing show. They had assistants milling around asking what specific sellers thought their cars would bring. Armed with this information at the control desk, if a lot passed the value at which a seller indicated he’d be happy, the car would be rushed off and the gavel would fall – even if bidding was still very much alive.

    Because the event was televised on live television via the Speed TV network, the plaintiff(s) now have video/audio proof that buyers were signaling increased bids before the three-minute marks, but were denied by a too-fast last call and hammer.

    While this all might cause Barrett-Jackson to have to pay money to sellers in the form of a judgment or settlement, it is something else that might land Craig Jackson in jail.

    It is no secret that Barrett-Jackson owns many cars that are run through the auction – it was something I suspected many, many years ago. This was proven when they started maintaining a showroom of cars in Arizona. This is not illegal, but stay with me.

    I’ve always suspected that the cars owned by Craig Jackson and the B-J company were often driven up by shill bidders working for the company. Essentially, the strategy works in the sense that ever since the auction focus moved from classics like Packards and Duesenbergs to muscle cars, B-J has been able to shill, say a Hemi Cuda or mid-year Corvette 427 they own, which causes the value of the 10 other identical cars to increase. They wind up “buying” their own car back, but the others go on to regular buyers, who now are paying higher because of the perception the market has moved up.

    This suspicion has been validated by auction attendees this year that witnessed cars sold at auction headed in trailers back to B-J’s warehouse. The lawsuit allegedly points out that these cars also spent significantly more time on the block than others.

    If this isn’t all interesting enough, during this year’s auction, fellow collector car journalist, Keith Martin of Sports Car Market, was booted from the Westworld premises and his media credentials revoked for voicing loud, specific concern regarding the event while sitting in the media room. Barrett-Jackson accused Keith Martin of “holding court” and attempting to send VIPs and journalists to the competing RM and Russo and Steele auction events. Among the alleged opinions included that the cars at B-J were of inferior quality (and had quality misrepresented,) as well as that the bidders were significantly over-bidding cars, which shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone who has witnessed people paying six figures for cars they could have bought for under $50,000 any other day of the year!!!
    This is somewhat of an interesting twist. Keith Martin’s publication has marketed the B-J events and has helped fuel its popularity. Keith is definitely one of the great “insiders” of the hobby, and has been a friend to Craig Jackson. In past years, Keith nor his publication have been critical of the goings-on and rumors, while other collector car journalists have been outwardly screaming that something stunk.

    It makes sense, since Sports Car Market really only tracks the value of vehicles and other items sold at auction, rather than via private sales (which really has skewed SCM’s values for years!) So without kissing-ass to B-J, Keith would have missed insider info on the largest events covered by his mag. So we can only guess that Keith and Craig had a falling out of some type.

    I applaud Keith for turning the corner on his view of B-J, but I’m with others I’ve talked to about this: I hate to say this about a colleague, but I felt his behavior was a bit unprofessional. As journalists, it is our responsibility to write what we think, but going to the show for years, then promoting RM and Russo+Steele while at Westworld is somewhat unprofessional. I agree that Keith, a true hobbyist who started out by writing an Alfa Romeo newsletter, was for a long time too much a part of the “circus” about which he finally rejected, and that SCM has to a significant degree helped to fuel misinformation and a house of cards regarding specific auction prices and bidding behavior. Keith, by all accounts, is a really good guy — an enthusiast, who maybe just needed to take a step back and a big breath and reacquaint himself with those outside of the very insulated collector car “in crowd” — and spend time with some car people who are not trying to exploit the collectors. There are plenty of guys who have dug themselves too deep into this little crowd, and are no longer fun to deal with, because they’ve put personal greed well ahead of the cars and the collectors. Keith will rebound — he has a great internal staff of really fantastic people, who hopefully will help him return to his roots.

    That being said… While I’ve never met him, the buzz among those in the hobby — both collectors and journalists, is that Craig Jackson is quite arrogant, so don’t expect many to come to his rescue. He inherited his father’s company, and has fueled B-J’s growth with a combination of intelligence, drive, ego, and greed. While there is nothing wrong with that combination, when it results in unethical and possibly illegal activities, that’s inexcusable.

    Like many surrounding the hobby, I will be watching the events unfold. Will the Westworld tents come down like a house of cards, or will everything just go away with an exchange of a little money? It’s hard to predict. Craig Jackson has become a very powerful man, and his company has pumped billions of dollars into the Arizona economy over the years.
    This all being said, there’s no doubt that Barrett-Jackson “jumped the shark” this year. Unlike when Fonzi did it, Craig Jackson drove his allegedly shill-bid Hemicudas over the tank and down a ramp that could lead to six years in a minimum security prison-issued orange jumpsuit. If that’s the case, maybe he can get Sports Car Market in the slammer to keep-up on Russo and Steele, RM and Kruse auction results.

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    Speculators have managed to ruin what was once a hobby that a regular guy could get into. I had two of those "plain jane" '73 Trans Am's and I know I will never be able to afford one again, let alone a Super Duty or a earlier '70 1/2 through '72. I watch BJ every once in a while but I change the channel because the greed and ego factor. Just my .02.

    Scott

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    I always watch. Whether or not I'd be able to touch any of those cars with a 10 foot pole, I sure like watching them go across the block I'd also love to just go one day and walk around and just take it all in. I love classic muscle and any chance to see such a huge gathering of awesome cars is a plus as far as I'm concerned.

    And, fantasy bid is fun too Although, last night I over bid by 1k to 6k three times and only ended up with a lousy 60 pts

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leon phelps View Post
    Cut and Paste from Team Camaro web site
    As a collector car journalist, I have been watching the Barrett-Jackson auction for years. For the last five or so years, it has been very apparent that the Scottsdale auction is at best a bastion of greed and manipulation…and at worse, all-out fraud.

    I’ve discussed B-J with collectors, dealers and enthusiasts, many of whom would be considered “insiders,” meaning they’ve bought and sold cars at B-J and other auctions, or are well-known in the collector car hobby. For some reason, it is this year that people are all finally grumbling and passing rumors in unison.

    The bottom line is that Craig Jackson and the B-J company have really screwed themselves this year. Their contracts specifically promise every car three minutes on the stand. Due to ego and greed, they expanded the Scottsdale ’07 auction to the point they could not provide this, plus they had the audacity to do it on live television.

    A well-known former head judge in the Ford Thunderbird circles was one of the sellers who had his car short-timed. He has already filed a law suit against B-J, and this is already headed towards class-action status.
    According to this judge and other sources, it appears Barrett-Jackson was operating a bit on the same level as an evangelical healing show. They had assistants milling around asking what specific sellers thought their cars would bring. Armed with this information at the control desk, if a lot passed the value at which a seller indicated he’d be happy, the car would be rushed off and the gavel would fall – even if bidding was still very much alive.

    Because the event was televised on live television via the Speed TV network, the plaintiff(s) now have video/audio proof that buyers were signaling increased bids before the three-minute marks, but were denied by a too-fast last call and hammer.

    While this all might cause Barrett-Jackson to have to pay money to sellers in the form of a judgment or settlement, it is something else that might land Craig Jackson in jail.

    It is no secret that Barrett-Jackson owns many cars that are run through the auction – it was something I suspected many, many years ago. This was proven when they started maintaining a showroom of cars in Arizona. This is not illegal, but stay with me.

    I’ve always suspected that the cars owned by Craig Jackson and the B-J company were often driven up by shill bidders working for the company. Essentially, the strategy works in the sense that ever since the auction focus moved from classics like Packards and Duesenbergs to muscle cars, B-J has been able to shill, say a Hemi Cuda or mid-year Corvette 427 they own, which causes the value of the 10 other identical cars to increase. They wind up “buying” their own car back, but the others go on to regular buyers, who now are paying higher because of the perception the market has moved up.

    This suspicion has been validated by auction attendees this year that witnessed cars sold at auction headed in trailers back to B-J’s warehouse. The lawsuit allegedly points out that these cars also spent significantly more time on the block than others.

    If this isn’t all interesting enough, during this year’s auction, fellow collector car journalist, Keith Martin of Sports Car Market, was booted from the Westworld premises and his media credentials revoked for voicing loud, specific concern regarding the event while sitting in the media room. Barrett-Jackson accused Keith Martin of “holding court” and attempting to send VIPs and journalists to the competing RM and Russo and Steele auction events. Among the alleged opinions included that the cars at B-J were of inferior quality (and had quality misrepresented,) as well as that the bidders were significantly over-bidding cars, which shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone who has witnessed people paying six figures for cars they could have bought for under $50,000 any other day of the year!!!
    This is somewhat of an interesting twist. Keith Martin’s publication has marketed the B-J events and has helped fuel its popularity. Keith is definitely one of the great “insiders” of the hobby, and has been a friend to Craig Jackson. In past years, Keith nor his publication have been critical of the goings-on and rumors, while other collector car journalists have been outwardly screaming that something stunk.

    It makes sense, since Sports Car Market really only tracks the value of vehicles and other items sold at auction, rather than via private sales (which really has skewed SCM’s values for years!) So without kissing-ass to B-J, Keith would have missed insider info on the largest events covered by his mag. So we can only guess that Keith and Craig had a falling out of some type.

    I applaud Keith for turning the corner on his view of B-J, but I’m with others I’ve talked to about this: I hate to say this about a colleague, but I felt his behavior was a bit unprofessional. As journalists, it is our responsibility to write what we think, but going to the show for years, then promoting RM and Russo+Steele while at Westworld is somewhat unprofessional. I agree that Keith, a true hobbyist who started out by writing an Alfa Romeo newsletter, was for a long time too much a part of the “circus” about which he finally rejected, and that SCM has to a significant degree helped to fuel misinformation and a house of cards regarding specific auction prices and bidding behavior. Keith, by all accounts, is a really good guy — an enthusiast, who maybe just needed to take a step back and a big breath and reacquaint himself with those outside of the very insulated collector car “in crowd” — and spend time with some car people who are not trying to exploit the collectors. There are plenty of guys who have dug themselves too deep into this little crowd, and are no longer fun to deal with, because they’ve put personal greed well ahead of the cars and the collectors. Keith will rebound — he has a great internal staff of really fantastic people, who hopefully will help him return to his roots.

    That being said… While I’ve never met him, the buzz among those in the hobby — both collectors and journalists, is that Craig Jackson is quite arrogant, so don’t expect many to come to his rescue. He inherited his father’s company, and has fueled B-J’s growth with a combination of intelligence, drive, ego, and greed. While there is nothing wrong with that combination, when it results in unethical and possibly illegal activities, that’s inexcusable.

    Like many surrounding the hobby, I will be watching the events unfold. Will the Westworld tents come down like a house of cards, or will everything just go away with an exchange of a little money? It’s hard to predict. Craig Jackson has become a very powerful man, and his company has pumped billions of dollars into the Arizona economy over the years.
    This all being said, there’s no doubt that Barrett-Jackson “jumped the shark” this year. Unlike when Fonzi did it, Craig Jackson drove his allegedly shill-bid Hemicudas over the tank and down a ramp that could lead to six years in a minimum security prison-issued orange jumpsuit. If that’s the case, maybe he can get Sports Car Market in the slammer to keep-up on Russo and Steele, RM and Kruse auction results.

    Eh, this is all old news from a couple years back. Fact is They've been in business for almost 40 years now. And buyers come from around the world because of the security you have from purchasing bogus or misrepresented cars. If there is a car that is questionable, it's pulled from the auction. That piece of mind alone is worth the price of a bidding card.
    Personally??? I don't worry about all the mumbo jumbo. Sounds more like cry babies to me that are worried about their time on stage and whether it would have made a difference. Fact is, these cars still bring good money, probably a bit more than your local trader. It was their choice to bring it to BJ where they don't have reserves.
    In my opinion if these sellers were worried about the dollar amount,,,they should have put their cars in Russo & Steel instead (it's right next door,,,lol), where a reserve can be set. I don't really have sympathy for these people.
    Overall I'm pretty happy, my classic cars are doing better (and have been for the last few years) than our 401K. I'm not complaining.

  9. #9
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyTATwo View Post
    Speculators have managed to ruin what was once a hobby that a regular guy could get into. I had two of those "plain jane" '73 Trans Am's and I know I will never be able to afford one again, let alone a Super Duty or a earlier '70 1/2 through '72. I watch BJ every once in a while but I change the channel because the greed and ego factor. Just my .02.

    Scott

    It was innevitable. Just like anything else that gets old overtime, it becomes collectable, and therefore the price reflects that. Just like furniture, planes, etc....
    Did you really think cars would stay cheap forever?? Barrett Jackson didn't drive these prices up, They've been around for 40 years, and at that time were selling pre-war vehicles that in 1970 were old collectables.
    If you notice now, it's the muscle cars from the 50's through the 70's that are the hot item. They were cheap up through the late 80's before the first big price jump. There weren't many at Barret Jackson at the time. Again, they became of age and were harder to find, and therefore became collectable, which drives the price up.
    Barrett Jackson or not, I don't think the rising prices could have been avoided.
    I think alot of the older folks on this board (including myself) can sit here and say,,,,"man I wish I would have kept that car",,,,or "Boy I wish I could find another one"
    Unfortunately like most of us, they have become out of reach, including myself. I'm not buying anything at Barrett Jackson,,,can't afford it.
    I'm just lucky I've held onto most of the cars I've got that I purchased in the 80's. A 70 Formula, 72 SS 454 chevelle, a 56 nomad, and managed to pickup a 69Z that I'm doing a frame off resto, and a survivor 71 Ventura to name a few, all of which are grabbing good money now. Do I want to sell them as a result??? Nope. But I'm happy with the direction the hobby is going. Looks better than the direction the rest of this country is heading.

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KahanaReef View Post
    I always watch. Whether or not I'd be able to touch any of those cars with a 10 foot pole, I sure like watching them go across the block I'd also love to just go one day and walk around and just take it all in. I love classic muscle and any chance to see such a huge gathering of awesome cars is a plus as far as I'm concerned.

    And, fantasy bid is fun too Although, last night I over bid by 1k to 6k three times and only ended up with a lousy 60 pts
    Now that's the attitude I've never actually been until I moved out here. It's truely a car lovers dream to just walk around and see what I consider some of the best restored cars in the country. It's like a giant car show really.
    I normally enjoy the fantasy bidding. But all this rain we've had (very unusual) has knocked out our internet, so I'm sitting here in the library checking emails. Ugh!!!

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    This country is going in the shitter anyways..

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allbaugh_04 View Post
    This country is going in the shitter anyways..
    Yep, but as long as I can keep enjoying my classic cars, I'm happy.

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    I dont enjoy when they are sitting in someones garage though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by leon phelps View Post
    I dont enjoy when they are sitting in someones garage though.
    lol it is not a garage it is a warehouse. And investors have killed the hobby side of old cars just like they did with the stock market, houses, coins, ect. It sucks that loving something is not good enough for most people now days, they have to make money at anything that will pay them the big payday that they are going to BLOW on crap they don't need. No responsibility in the world any more just greed. Used to be if you loved pluming you became a plumber, If you loved cars you became a mechanic. Now people go become what ever pays them the most. They don't care about anything but the pay check. There are still people out there that love what they do for work even if it is something they had no interest in before they got into it and I applaud all of you. To the rest who don't care about the work they do, Go jump off a cliff.

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leon phelps View Post
    I dont enjoy when they are sitting in someones garage though.

    I'm kinda on the fence with this one.

    Having several collectable cars myself and watching how the values keep rising,,,I'm starting to get to the point where I'm afraid to get them out very often. It's not that I don't want to drive them,,,it's the other idiots on the roadways that I worry about.
    One fender bender and then the survivor car you were just driving is no longer a survivor.
    And some of my cars have only hit values in the $50-$70K range. So I can completely understand some of the higher dollar cars that are worth tripple digits. I don't think I would drive it either.

    Because of this,,,and since I still have a passion for driving them,,,I tend to get them out later in the evenings after rush hour has died. I drive primarily back roads anymore and stay away from the main stream of traffic. I don't hit the highways unless absolutely necessary.

    It's not that people don't like to drive them,,,,it's the other idiots out there that aren't paying attention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JaycenK View Post
    lol it is not a garage it is a warehouse. And investors have killed the hobby side of old cars just like they did with the stock market, houses, coins, ect. It sucks that loving something is not good enough for most people now days, they have to make money at anything that will pay them the big payday that they are going to BLOW on crap they don't need. No responsibility in the world any more just greed. Used to be if you loved pluming you became a plumber, If you loved cars you became a mechanic. Now people go become what ever pays them the most. They don't care about anything but the pay check. There are still people out there that love what they do for work even if it is something they had no interest in before they got into it and I applaud all of you. To the rest who don't care about the work they do, Go jump off a cliff.
    This is what I wanted to post but could not find the words. Thanks Jaycenk.

    Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    I'm kinda on the fence with this one.

    Having several collectable cars myself and watching how the values keep rising,,,I'm starting to get to the point where I'm afraid to get them out very often. It's not that I don't want to drive them,,,it's the other idiots on the roadways that I worry about.
    One fender bender and then the survivor car you were just driving is no longer a survivor.
    And some of my cars have only hit values in the $50-$70K range. So I can completely understand some of the higher dollar cars that are worth tripple digits. I don't think I would drive it either.

    Because of this,,,and since I still have a passion for driving them,,,I tend to get them out later in the evenings after rush hour has died. I drive primarily back roads anymore and stay away from the main stream of traffic. I don't hit the highways unless absolutely necessary.

    It's not that people don't like to drive them,,,,it's the other idiots out there that aren't paying attention.
    There is a lot of truth here as well. I love driving my GTO and my Trans Am, I am worried that some clown will hit them in traffic and I will be out a car that I love. With Pontiac gone I think they will go up in value but not in the near future.

    Scott

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaycenK View Post
    lol it is not a garage it is a warehouse. And investors have killed the hobby side of old cars just like they did with the stock market, houses, coins, ect. It sucks that loving something is not good enough for most people now days, they have to make money at anything that will pay them the big payday that they are going to BLOW on crap they don't need. No responsibility in the world any more just greed. Used to be if you loved pluming you became a plumber, If you loved cars you became a mechanic. Now people go become what ever pays them the most. They don't care about anything but the pay check. There are still people out there that love what they do for work even if it is something they had no interest in before they got into it and I applaud all of you. To the rest who don't care about the work they do, Go jump off a cliff.

    Unfortunately that's not the world we live in anymore. Investors didn't kill the hobby. This country has been going in the toilet for many years. It didn't take long to realize the cars were better investments than our 401K's.
    It only made sense to cash them out and buy something that keeps appreciating.
    I can tell you my 401K investments flat suck right now and are getting worse, just like everyone else in this country. We have also been out of work for almost 2 years now and no good looking jobs in the immediate future either. Most of the middle class jobs have left the country.
    So I can completely understand the thought process of doing whatever brings in money.

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