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77 Corvette... LS1 with a carb

This is a discussion on 77 Corvette... LS1 with a carb within the Classic Muscle forums, part of the Vehicle Specific category; The great difference between carbs and computers is the computers use of a MAF (or equivalent) which allows for F/A ...

  1. #21
    Exalted Cyclops 67CamaroRSSS's Avatar
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    The great difference between carbs and computers is the computers use of a MAF (or equivalent) which allows for F/A changes on the fly.

    Only problem with a carb is if you change altitudes you have to rejet. But hey, that's part of the "adventure".

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    Quote Originally Posted by 67CamaroRSSS View Post
    The great difference between carbs and computers is the computers use of a MAF (or equivalent) which allows for F/A changes on the fly.

    Only problem with a carb is if you change altitudes you have to rejet. But hey, that's part of the "adventure".
    Ya,,,,it's not as bad as people make it out to be really. It's becoming a lost art unfortunately.

    I use a wideband on the carbed cars as well, and with a little math formula you can get pretty darn close to an optimum jet combination for a given altitude. Then go to the track and fine tune it with MPH.

    I'll have to change all the cars around once I move to Arizona,,,living currently at 600 ft. altitude and moving to 5,000 ft.,,,,,the race track out there is another story though,,,,for extremeties like that I usually carry a spare carb setup accordingly,,,a simple carb swap and I'm done.

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    Exalted Cyclops 67CamaroRSSS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Ya,,,,it's not as bad as people make it out to be really. It's becoming a lost art unfortunately.

    I use a wideband on the carbed cars as well, and with a little math formula you can get pretty darn close to an optimum jet combination for a given altitude. Then go to the track and fine tune it with MPH.

    I'll have to change all the cars around once I move to Arizona,,,living currently at 600 ft. altitude and moving to 5,000 ft.,,,,,the race track out there is another story though,,,,for extremeties like that I usually carry a spare carb setup accordingly,,,a simple carb swap and I'm done.
    When I lived in Los Angeles during the late 80's the only place to drag race was LACR (RIP - Thanx for the fun Bernie). It was at 3500' while I was at ~20 above sea level. I always took bigger jets and spare (Holley) carb parts. Keep upping the jets til it starts slowing down the back off one. Worked every time.

    And you're correct, tuning a carb is becoming a "lost art".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    It makes the conversion much easier in an older (non computerized) vehicle. Also makes it cheaper as well,,,since you no longer need a computer/lap top for tuning along with expensive software. It really simplifies things. The MSD controller does all the ignition for you thus eliminating the need for a computer all together,,,so there is much less wiring and clutter to mess with as well.

    It's been shown on the dyno many times that the carbs make as much or generally a little more HP than the fuel injected motors as well, so you're not losing anything.

    It's a great way to go in an older vehicle if you know how to tune carburators,,,my hats off to holley505 for a job well done.

    YUP... THANK YOU ...

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    Nitrous Tuner LS2Tuner's Avatar
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    Welcome holley!

    Cool Vette I had a few back in the 90's. A couple ?'s for you? Is that a 3310 750 you are currently running? I see that it doesn't have a metering block for the secondaries.
    Also what kind of timing are you running total at this point.

    I highly recommend you move that MSD box away from the top of the motor. At the very least I would make a heat shield for it. That isn't a optimum location due to heat soak. I have had customers toast them from similar mounting.

    Larry you'll be fine once you get out here and get that NX plate on the Chevelle.
    Don't be afraid of the bottle!!! Be afraid of your tune!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LS2Tuner View Post
    Welcome holley!

    Cool Vette I had a few back in the 90's. A couple ?'s for you? Is that a 3310 750 you are currently running? I see that it doesn't have a metering block for the secondaries.
    Also what kind of timing are you running total at this point.

    I highly recommend you move that MSD box away from the top of the motor. At the very least I would make a heat shield for it. That isn't a optimum location due to heat soak. I have had customers toast them from similar mounting.

    Larry you'll be fine once you get out here and get that NX plate on the Chevelle.
    NO... I am running a AED 680 DP holley. 750 is usually better for the 6.0 364ci LS2

    I am running the chip#4 from Edelbrock... my box come with 6 chips... set base timing I think is 34? which is high for LS motors

    I will be switching the to MSD 6LS box with timing adjustments and retard. (spray time soon)

    I will move the box that time... cables or short from edelbrock and that is the recommended location from edelbrock... keep in mine this is a air gap manifold and no water runs into it.

    As far as toasting it... not a issue yet and I have been running it this way for a year.

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    Nitrous Tuner LS2Tuner's Avatar
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    I'm really surprised AED would build a DP without a secondary metering block for secondary jet changes. It also looked to not have changeable air bleeds. One of the two should be added for proper tuning specially with bottle.

    We run AED Dominator's on a few cars I'm familiar with their work.

    What are you running for exhaust?

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LS2Tuner View Post
    I'm really surprised AED would build a DP without a secondary metering block for secondary jet changes. It also looked to not have changeable air bleeds. One of the two should be added for proper tuning specially with bottle.

    We run AED Dominator's on a few cars I'm familiar with their work.

    What are you running for exhaust?
    I'm surprised to,,,it looks much like a 3310-1,2 or 3 with a vacuum secondary. I swear I can see the very outer dimensions of the vacuum can in the one picture of the engine (air cleaner removed)

    Easy enough to convert to a rear meter block though.

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LS2Tuner View Post
    Larry you'll be fine once you get out here and get that NX plate on the Chevelle.
    LOL,,,ya I am thinking I will need it to gain back the lost performance from the added elevation I am going to be facing

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    I don't understand why you guys carb LS1's. Is it because it makes more power at the track? I'm old school and just sold my 455 olds and bought a ls1 complete pull out. I went LS1 because of the fuel injection. The wiring and computer was the easiest part of my build. I know nothing about how it works but it is basically plug and play. The wiring and computer was much easier than making it fit in my old A body cutlass. You can send the computer to a mail order tuner and get it set up for 85$ If I wanted a carb I would have stayed with my stump pulling 455. You do have to add an electric fuel pump and regulator but that is less than 300$. Nice vet by the way but I still don't get the carb thing. In no way do I see it being cheaper than just installing the bone stock LS1.
    Last edited by rockytopper; 05-06-2008 at 07:45 AM.

  11. #31
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Eh,,,just depends on who ya ask. Nothing wrong with carbs. They have been around since the invention of the combustable engine.

    Tuning is cheap and easy. Repairs can be done roadside if need be. It's just a simple fuel mixer. It doesn't get any easier. It's cheap and it makes power. There is a huge market for it,,,hence the reason it didn't take long for someone to whip up an intake manifold/carb setup for the LSx motors. They have been shown on the dyno to run neck and neck with fuel injection and in some instances actually edge out the injected motor by a slight margin. There are also advantages in NHRA class racing.

    Fuel injection does get expensive no matter how you look at it. Take Nascar for instance. The rules dictate a carb for alot of reasons,,,it's much easier for tech inspection,,,but a big reason Nascar keeps the carbs in place is the fact that they are trying to keep the cost of racing to a minimum,,,is it working???? In that respect yes,,,but the overall picture,,,No,,,,but letting the teams run fuel injection would skyrocket the cost of research and development, equipment needed etc....

    Thats just one example.

    You mention sending the computer out for a cheap tune. Thats fine and dandy,,,but how do you diagnose problems?? How do you know it's running to it's full potential?? Without the proper software to do your own diagnose and repair then you cannot do any of these things. My take is,,,if you're going to own a fuel injected car then you need to have the software to properly, tune, diagnose and repair the engine. Otherwise,,,where is the advantage????? This also adds to the cost, laptop costs, software etc....

    These are all different ways to look at it. I am not knocking fuel injection,,,and I own 3 cars with it. But in the end I honestly prefer a carb. Biggest reason is cost,,,,it's simply much cheaper. Another reason is it's easily tuned and repaired with simple hand tools that most everyone has in their box. And lastly,,,if you break down on the road,,,chances are good that it can be repaired on the spot, and with parts available at most any parts store,,,a computer controlled fuel injected motor is another story,,,you may as well call a hook.

    Now fuel injection has it's own advantages too,,,and you can get into a huge discusion on how the fuel injector is placed close to the intake runner, better fuel distribution, precise metering etc.....
    It really just depends on what you want more, how much you want to spend and what the indivisual person is willing to put up with.....Just some things to think about.

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    I don't believe there is a need to constantly tune a computerized engine. Once you set it right it should be done. I don't recall too many computer cars lying on the side of the road. That's because the solid state stuff is extremely reliable these days. The ls1 is now the junk yard engine just like you use to buy 454's all day long for 75$ not so anymore they are hard to find cheap. As far as parts any part of an ls1 is readily available at any local parts store because it is the engine of today. If you have trouble a scan tool is 125$ or many parts stores will loan you one in the parking lot. Again I don't know how each sensor etc works but I don't need too to fix it. You simply identify the bad part and replace it. Plug and play. Most folks these days already have an efi car and by buying the tools as you state they can fix their own daily driver instead of sending it to the local Chevy house at 100$ plus an hour. Holley 505 is a prime example because he also owns a new camaro along with the classic vet. In my case I own a 2002 Chevy truck so now I’m going to fix most problems my self rather than send it to the shop. Honestly I’m no mechanic I could never tune a carb, my friends always helped me with stuff like that. I just thank for most old school folks it scares them to think about dealing with the computer and wiring and it should not. It just don’t make sense to me to buy a ls1 and then strip the efi off and shell out 700+ on an intake and carb. Again I’m no mechanic so that’s just my point of view. As far as Nascar I thank they should let them go balls out like the old days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Eh,,,just depends on who ya ask. Nothing wrong with carbs. They have been around since the invention of the combustable engine.

    Tuning is cheap and easy. Repairs can be done roadside if need be. It's just a simple fuel mixer. It doesn't get any easier. It's cheap and it makes power. There is a huge market for it,,,hence the reason it didn't take long for someone to whip up an intake manifold/carb setup for the LSx motors. They have been shown on the dyno to run neck and neck with fuel injection and in some instances actually edge out the injected motor by a slight margin. There are also advantages in NHRA class racing.

    Fuel injection does get expensive no matter how you look at it. Take Nascar for instance. The rules dictate a carb for alot of reasons,,,it's much easier for tech inspection,,,but a big reason Nascar keeps the carbs in place is the fact that they are trying to keep the cost of racing to a minimum,,,is it working???? In that respect yes,,,but the overall picture,,,No,,,,but letting the teams run fuel injection would skyrocket the cost of research and development, equipment needed etc....

    Thats just one example.

    You mention sending the computer out for a cheap tune. Thats fine and dandy,,,but how do you diagnose problems?? How do you know it's running to it's full potential?? Without the proper software to do your own diagnose and repair then you cannot do any of these things. My take is,,,if you're going to own a fuel injected car then you need to have the software to properly, tune, diagnose and repair the engine. Otherwise,,,where is the advantage????? This also adds to the cost, laptop costs, software etc....

    These are all different ways to look at it. I am not knocking fuel injection,,,and I own 3 cars with it. But in the end I honestly prefer a carb. Biggest reason is cost,,,,it's simply much cheaper. Another reason is it's easily tuned and repaired with simple hand tools that most everyone has in their box. And lastly,,,if you break down on the road,,,chances are good that it can be repaired on the spot, and with parts available at most any parts store,,,a computer controlled fuel injected motor is another story,,,you may as well call a hook.

    Now fuel injection has it's own advantages too,,,and you can get into a huge discusion on how the fuel injector is placed close to the intake runner, better fuel distribution, precise metering etc.....
    It really just depends on what you want more, how much you want to spend and what the indivisual person is willing to put up with.....Just some things to think about.
    ..........Good reply Larry.

    Give me a Super Victor

    and a Race Demon
    with a Gemini Twin plate kit




    9's on drag radials ALL day.

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LS2Tuner View Post
    ..........Good reply Larry.

    Give me a Super VictorClick for full size

    and a Race DemonClick for full size
    with a Gemini Twin plate kitClick for full size




    9's on drag radials ALL day.
    Why thank you sir. That intake and carb just looks sexier too!!!!

    I wish someone would step up and make a tunnel ram for the LSx motors,,,I'd be all over that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockytopper View Post
    I don't believe there is a need to constantly tune a computerized engine. Once you set it right it should be done. I don't recall too many computer cars lying on the side of the road. That's because the solid state stuff is extremely reliable these days. The ls1 is now the junk yard engine just like you use to buy 454's all day long for 75$ not so anymore they are hard to find cheap. As far as parts any part of an ls1 is readily available at any local parts store because it is the engine of today. If you have trouble a scan tool is 125$ or many parts stores will loan you one in the parking lot. Again I don't know how each sensor etc works but I don't need too to fix it. You simply identify the bad part and replace it. Plug and play. Most folks these days already have an efi car and by buying the tools as you state they can fix their own daily driver instead of sending it to the local Chevy house at 100$ plus an hour. Holley 505 is a prime example because he also owns a new camaro along with the classic vet. In my case I own a 2002 Chevy truck so now Iím going to fix most problems my self rather than send it to the shop. Honestly Iím no mechanic I could never tune a carb, my friends always helped me with stuff like that. I just thank for most old school folks it scares them to think about dealing with the computer and wiring and it should not. It just donít make sense to me to buy a ls1 and then strip the efi off and shell out 700+ on an intake and carb. Again Iím no mechanic so thatís just my point of view. As far as Nascar I thank they should let them go balls out like the old days.
    No need to tune a computerized engine???? really??? Like any true hotrodder we just can't leave anything alone. For instance after a while,,,a camshaft swap or maybe a different exhaust system, a new set of heads etc.....any of these things would require revamping the fuel curves, timing curves etc...... Maybe I'm just one of the few left that like to tinker. I'm just not going to plunk a fuel injected motor in a hotrod and leave it be.

    Shucks I didn't buy the pair 4th gens that I have to just drive and stare at,,,,I like to work on them too. I also have old school hotrods as well,,,and I try not to be bias here since part of what I do for a living is carburators,,,but I still jumped into the fuel injected bandwagon,,,and knowing the importance of a proper tune I just couldn't own these cars without the proper software to do so.

    As you said yourself,,,you could never tune a carb,,,so I can see why you may be bais towards fuel injection. Thats fine. Everyone has there own cup of tea. But as far as LS motor being plenitful and cheap???? I don't agree,,,,,comparing them to 454's is apples and oranges. A mirror comparison would be looking at what this motor evolved from and replaced,,,,the Gen 1 and Gen 2 small blocks,,,,in which case they have been around since 1955 and have the advantage of mass production for the last 50+ years,,,and parts interchangability makes them some of the most popular hotrod swaps and probably will be for years to come. The LS motors just haven't been around long enough yet. Not all parts interchange,,,,and right now complete engines (USED) still fetch $1,500 or more,,,thats not exactly cheap for a used motor. Maybe after 50 years they will be stacked like cordwood and prices will come down accordingly. Right now they just don't have that advantage though.

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    Besides which, carbs just look bitchin!

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    '66 Nova LS1 with carbs

    I just love what you did. My 15 year old son is building a '66 Nova (it is out for paint right now)we are doing the same thing as you. He is a little different, because we discussed FI or Carb and he wanted to go old school in his car and wants the carb look. The kid is keeping his Dad in line and not going wild on paint or accessories. We got a crate LS1, a big cam and are going with the Edelbrock set up too. One exception, Edelbrock recommended their 850 carb. I am, really impressed with the ease with which the swap is going to be. How did you select the Chip??? Edelbrock feels I should easily have 425 - 450HP with my cam and the remaining components still stock. I have a spare LS1 Crate if anyone is interested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDz View Post
    I just love what you did. My 15 year old son is building a '66 Nova (it is out for paint right now)we are doing the same thing as you. He is a little different, because we discussed FI or Carb and he wanted to go old school in his car and wants the carb look. The kid is keeping his Dad in line and not going wild on paint or accessories. We got a crate LS1, a big cam and are going with the Edelbrock set up too. One exception, Edelbrock recommended their 850 carb. I am, really impressed with the ease with which the swap is going to be. How did you select the Chip??? Edelbrock feels I should easily have 425 - 450HP with my cam and the remaining components still stock. I have a spare LS1 Crate if anyone is interested.
    Sounds like a great project!

    Welcome to the site.

    I would highly recommend going with a Holley style carb if your looking for max power. The afb carbs are good for all around drivers but not our choice for power due to many reasons.
    I would put a double pumper on it size depending on the cam you chose........

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    Quote Originally Posted by LS2Tuner View Post
    I'm really surprised AED would build a DP without a secondary metering block for secondary jet changes. It also looked to not have changeable air bleeds. One of the two should be added for proper tuning specially with bottle.

    We run AED Dominator's on a few cars I'm familiar with their work.

    What are you running for exhaust?
    C5 manifolds... with mid america 2.5 inch chambered pipes to exit the rear... (does have mufflers)

    I will take a Picture of the CARB... It is a Double Pumper... it has 2 block and screws all the way around. The picture I posted may have been with my early 750 vacuum Holley (brass colored carb)

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockytopper View Post
    I don't understand why you guys carb LS1's. Is it because it makes more power at the track? I'm old school and just sold my 455 olds and bought a ls1 complete pull out. I went LS1 because of the fuel injection. The wiring and computer was the easiest part of my build. I know nothing about how it works but it is basically plug and play. The wiring and computer was much easier than making it fit in my old A body cutlass. You can send the computer to a mail order tuner and get it set up for 85$ If I wanted a carb I would have stayed with my stump pulling 455. You do have to add an electric fuel pump and regulator but that is less than 300$. Nice vet by the way but I still don't get the carb thing. In no way do I see it being cheaper than just installing the bone stock LS1.
    just compare pricing... LS1 complete with motor trans computer wiring harness, fuel system

    VS.

    LS motor Long Block + 700 for the Edelbrock kit... I had a Holley Carb... later upgraded to AED (hell I see 5.3 for $600.00-$700.00)

    different strokes for different folks... besides I have beat many Fuel injected LS1/LS6 cars at my local track running FI. My cars runs and drives way better than my old L48 sbc with cam, intake and shaved heads.

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