Will this all be compatible? (theoretical/planning ahead.)

[cwilliamsws6]

I think this is the right section but if not I'm sorry moderators please move it if you need to...

My friend and I are planning ahead for an LS1 build we want to do when we get the money for it. I think it all looks good, I did a bit of research myself on this forum and LS1Tech as well as general googling but I want a second opinion before we go ahead and start ordering the parts.

Texas Speed MS3 cam 112LSA 238/242 .600"/.600", LS7 lifters, Harland Sharp 1.7 rockers, 7.4" chromoly pushrods, PAC .660" dual-springs, Melling performance oil pump, LS2 timing chain, TCI 3600 stall converter, 3.73:1 gears, Bosch 36LB injectors, Volant dual cone filter intake. Also assembly lube and new valve cover gaskets.

The total of the list is roughly $3,000 so we'd be doing it one piece at a time haha but regardless in the end is all this compatible and make for a decent performance build? Thanks!

[SMWS6TA]

Texas Speed MS3 cam 112LSA 238/242 .600"/.600" - meh....There are better cams that have better/updated lift designs compared to the MS3 & 4. Those cams were designed in the beginning of the LS1 era and since then lobe design has greatly improved. The MS3 & 4 have a steep rise and fall. I've read you'll need to check you're valve springs every 15-20k miles cause of this. That's a lot of maintenance.


These = :thumbsup: LS7 lifters, Harland Sharp 1.7 rockers, 7.4" chromoly pushrods, PAC .660" dual-springs, Melling performance oil pump (You'll want a 10295 pump), LS2 timing chain, TCI 3600 stall converter, 3.73:1 gears (this for a 10 bolt?), Bosch 36LB injectors, Also assembly lube and new valve cover gaskets.


Volant dual cone filter intake - not worth the cost, if you want more air flow look at a 104mm airlid. Only issue may be fitment if using with a non WS6 hood.


Don't forget to plan for a tune session.

[cwilliamsws6]

Thank you for your input. I understand what you're saying about the design of the MS3 and I've read similar things before but Ive seen videos of cars with the MS3 and I just really love how it sounds -- are there similar sounding cams available??

Also if I DO end up going with the MS3 the maintenance won't be too much of a hassle as the car likely would only be driven on weekends so I won't have to do it often.

And yes I plan to put the 3.73s into the 10-bolt, and I went ahead and switched the Volant for a 104mm lid on the list.

And as far as tuning goes most likely I just mail the PCM in to Texas Speed since they offer mail order tunes. I'm experienced enough with technology that honestly I could probably do it myself but I don't trust myself to not mess something up lol.

Thanks!

[SMWS6TA]

I have a Polluter Stg3 from Tick. It's 238/244/ LSA 112+3, with BTR 0.650" springs. It's a solid design close to the MS3/4 cams but the rise of the lobe is not as severe. In non stroker builds it would be a very healthy cam, but in my 403ci it's on the low side for me. I built mine as a budget so I didn't have the cash to change out so it will be on phase 2 when I get better heads.

Also another suggestion on rockers. The stock ones are pretty good, just need to do the CompCams Trunion upgrade and they'll handle quite a bit of power. A solid alternative for the cost. About $120 IIRC. I've been using them on my build.


For mild bolt ons a mail order tune IMO would be ok, but when you do a major upgrade like cam, heads & crank (if you go stroker) you need a tuner on sight to make the changes they see. It takes an experience tuner 2-3 runs to get a tune right, sometimes a few more. No 2 engines are the same. My tuner not only did dyno pulls but also we drove a 5 mile course so he could data log as it went thru the cycle of the drive. It could also be because mine was a Speed Density tune over using the MAF.

[Redphoenix1998]

Just chiming in as well. I do agree with SMWS6TA with the cam spec. The Tick Polluter cams are great cams with stock cubes. As far as the rockers, I've had harland sharps and I had a failure with the snap rings on the trunions due to bad heat treating. I would avoid aftermarket rockers and stick with the upgraded stocks and save yourself some money. I have heard of LS7 lifters and there was a big discussion on them. If you're planning to go with an after market lifter the Morel link bar setup I would go for. With high lift cams you run the inherent risk of the lifter rotating in the bore which goes away with a link bar setup. As far as your injectors I would step it up to 42# injectors to give your tuner room to play with and I do agree with finding a local tuner vs a mail order tune and go speed density and eliminate the MAF completely from your fuel control. The FTP airlid is a good upgrade and I would stick with that over the volant. Also what fuel pump are you running? Also any headers?

[SMWS6TA]

If you do look at 42lb injectors a good budget injector is the LS3 injectors. I picked up a set of some EV1 to EV6 adapters for $16 to use the LS3 injectors with my 98 harness. The spacers for my FAST were $18 and the LS3 injectors I picked up used for $150 and spent another $100 having them cleaned and tested but that was because of another issue. If sticking with the LS6 intake then you'll want to look for Ford Green Top 42lb injectors. Be careful because there are a lot of cheap Chinese knockoffs out there, at least when I was shopping 3 yrs ago.

LS7 lifters are the stock replacement for all GM GEN III and IV LS family motors. If you're doing a high output build I agree with getting the link bar lifters. A set are on my phase II build list for full disclosure. But my Phase II will be a nasty build too.


Agree with asking about the fuel pump question? Under 550-600 the Racetronix pump is very good, if you doing a high nitrous or boost build then dual pumps is going to be needed.

[cwilliamsws6]

I watched some videos of the polluter cam and I liked the sound of it and I'm definitely considering editing it onto my list. I'll look into the link bar thing too and I'll also do the 42# injectors. Since we'll be on a budget we'll probably wait and switch headers later on. Also I plan to just run the stock fuel pump if I can. Thanks!

[SMWS6TA]

Here's mine.






Open cutout

[SMWS6TA]

1 more thing. With you being an auto you'll want to have around a 114 LSA on the cam. The manuals can handle the lower LSA more so then auto's can. Or at least that what I was told by the guy that designed my cam when he was with Tick.

[cwilliamsws6]

Sorry to derail the topic a bit but SMWS6TA I noticed your disabled veteran plates. Thank you for your service!!!

Now back to the topic, I made the following revisions to our list:
Bosch 42# injectors
Upgraded stock rocker package from Texas Speed

I am still doing research on link-bar lifters and I am iffy on doing the 104mm airbox over the Volant CAI because the airbox would require a new throttle body which costs a lot.. would something easier like the SLP airbox lid work good enough? We're honestly not looking for super-crazy-race-car performance, but rather just a good weekend warrior build.

I like the sounds of both the MS3 and the Polluter cam, I'm torn between the two now to be honest based on what I've heard, but I'm still leaning toward the MS3 because it's $10 less and its a bit less aggressive and doesn't actually require aftermarket headers. Also about the 114LSA thing, they offer the MS3 in 112, 113, and 114. Would 113 be better since it's like the middle?

Also if I forgot to mention earlier, I plan to try to use the stock fuel pump, and to save costs we probably wouldn't get headers until later on..

I'm just glad my part list was decent to start and I don't have to start all over so thanks.

[tug686spd]

Texas Speeds ms3 cam has been ground on new lobes now for about 2 yrs. They are .600" lift now and much easier on the valve train. Stock rockers with a bushing upgrade is definitely the way to go there. I prefer reflowed stock injectors from FIC. Also on use Ls7 lifters and on bigger and much bigger cams than the ms3. Keeping valves under control keeps the lifer happy and the newer lobes on the ms3 make that easier.

Headers should be first. Pretty much every mod you have listed the car can still be run some what decent with out a tune except the cam and injectors. Get all supporting stuff done first then do cam and injectors and get a tune.

[tug686spd]

And instead of the Tci converter I'd call PTC and get their non billet for about the same price.

[SMWS6TA]

I didn't know about the new MS3 profile. good to here. Go with the SLP airlid then over the other one. It has a cool factor but function it's not that well.

Trust us when we say do headers 1st. Think of it this way. The engine is an air pump. More air let's you add more fuel = more power. So the beginning and end of the system needs flow
Having a small Throttle body, intake restricts air intake. Same with the exit side, restricting exhaust causes back pressure. Some is needed but to much doesn't allow the cylinder to evact all the gases or makes it inefficient. So having better flow exhaust let's you build more power.


$10 is not anything to sweat on a cam. Get the one you want that will work best for your build goals.


Thank you for your observation.

[oldmanZ28]

agree with post # 12,NO TCI. Yank SS3600 or equivalent.

[cwilliamsws6]

I'll revise further, thanks! Just out of curiousity, what's so bad about the TCI converter?

[tug686spd]

Converter is honestly personal preference. I've run Ati, tci, PTC, yank, precision and a b&m back in the day. Tci and b&m converters are more of a commercial type as in a one size fits all, not much to choose from and I'm pretty sure there's no free restall if you don't like it. Yank, PTC and Precision have expensive billet converters that are nice but no where needed at the power you'll be making. PTC makes a non billet rated at about the same power as the other billets for $500 give or take. Going with PTC or similar company you can call tell them what you expect and you car combo and they'll make you a converter with a free restall if your not happy. I'm currently running a yank ss4000, it did not hold the way I thought it should. It had about 12-15 percent slip at the stripe at 7000 rpm. Had dyno time and 3 passes on it but was out of the 1 year restall period so I had to pay to have it restalled to the pas3400 it is now. To much money into it now to start over or I'd be running a PTC again. In a auto car nothing will make as much of a gain in performance as a converter.

I will add I'm running a stroker motor now so if you find a deal on a ss4000 used somewhere don't be afraid of getting it. Just about all your parts can be sourced used. I always use new springs, lifters and timing chains though. Check all the forums and Facebook groups you can. Nothing wrong with being a baller on a budget.

[SMWS6TA]

In a auto car nothing will make as much of a gain in performance as a converter.


I always use new springs, lifters and timing chains though. Check all the forums and Facebook groups you can. Nothing wrong with being a baller on a budget.

So damn true on the converter. Even a stock motor will fill different once you get a good converter. I have a friend that has a C6 Vette LS2, we are both similar in power. At the track I would beat him quite a bit even on drag radials, then he gets a new stall converter and now it's 70/30 he wins. The times I do win now it's cause he's asleep at the light or is running on street tires.

I would add oil pump to the list too. Especially if the stock oil pump is from a 97-99 LS1. They are know to fail once they get high in the rpms (6500+) and in age. I think that's what killed my LS1.



OP - there's nothing wrong with building on a budget. It took me almost 2.5 yrs to finish building my engine. Mainly because I was chasing issues that happen do to failure of certain parts and my own stubbornness in not wanting to pull the motor back out.


Best advice you can get -

- Do like your doing now, researching, asking questions. Learn from others that have been down the road you're on. We have a few tech threads that have a lot of knowledge in them.

- Make a plan (and budget). Both are important, don't worry about time, this is your build, not for a paying customer. Most self builds take 3-5 yrs on average. To be honest I'm on yr 7 and have a few more to go till I'm 100% satisfied that I have my car the way I envision. $$$ doesn't grow on trees or at least I haven't found one that does yet. Try to keep all of your receipts and I made a spreadsheet that I can track every part and everything I did to my car. It helps a ton.

- Be ready for changes.

- Start with small projects, a successful build is made up of many small projects. Over time they add up.

- Know your limitations. Skills, knowledge, tools, workspace, etc.... There are some things that are difficult to do, learning on the fly can be expensive and even dangerous. Not everyone has every tool to do all jobs. What I'm saying is it's one thing to take something on to learn how to do it but another if doing so puts you or others in danger. Safety should always trump all other.

[oldmanZ28]

TCI convertors,every one I've seen/felt were always loose in city driving,even the more expensive 'street fighter/super street fighter' series.
Do a good convertor first to awaken the beast. I've seen convertors done first and then change of other plans(sometimes not even done) because of the satisfaction of the performance of just the convertor.

[Redphoenix1998]

In all honesty you need to think of your build in stages. Everything has to be researched and pieced together right to make the right combination. If money is an issue then add more time. Don't rush it. That extra paycheck going towards parts will save you headaches in the long run. Trust me on this I'm on engine 4, transmission 2, rear end 2, H/C combination 2, etc etc. Car has not grenaded in 2 years running 900 rwhp. We just recently took the engine apart for inspection and upgrades and it still looks good because we picked what would work. Now we're going for a bigger 1000+ rwhp setup which may require a new clutch but we're within our part limitations. With that being said,when doing a head cam setup as guys above have said, headers, headers, headers! Stage 1 or any build are always bolt on's. Lid, filter, throttle body, intake manifold, headers, under drive pulley, catback or cutout. Stage 2 is normally, heads, cam, fuel pump, fuel injectors, stall, tune. Take it in stages and plan your build accordingly. If you do head cam now without headers you're going to cause a choke point. If you still have cats you're going to fry the cats with the excess fuel you'll be dumping in. TSP makes a set of affordable headers that are seriously bang for the buck. I'm running them and have zero issues and it ran me no more than $600 for headers w/ ORY. Install is the easiest install I have ever done on a header with no fitment issues. But like I said take that extra time to build up another paycheck or two and just collect parts. Don't do the install until you have every part you need to support a H/C build. It will save you a lot of headaches in the long run.

[SMWS6TA]

^^it will also save in $$$$ in the long run too.

With Heads and Cam you will need tuning and not the mail order kind.

It sucks waiting (trust me, mine was in my garage for 2.5 yrs) but once it's done you'll appreciate it more.

Engine for me: LS1 grenade itself, LQ4 build 1, block had to be bored 0.005" over, used stock bottom end plus pistons = had a rod bolt failure on startup. Cost me a rod and the stock crank, LQ4 2nd time - Went with 4"stroker crank and turned it into a 403ci. Haven't looked back and having a blast

Transmission - on my 3rd rebuild, 1st a shop screwed me, 2nd time had a friend fix the 1st shops mess, but it was still on borrowed time. 3rd time it grenade in spectacular fashion that Tick called me to applaud my efforts as they gave me the bad news. In the end I have a stg3 with Viper output shaft. Only better version is to have it turned into a T56 Magnum for about $6k(They used the TR6060 internals and with a lot of machine work and some custom shafts they squeeze it into our T56 case. The TR6060 will not fit in our f bodies. They are about 6" longer. The day comes I need to upgrade the transmission to that level I'll just swap over to a 4L80E. Be cheaper in the long run.

Rear - I built my 8.8 myself. Been going on 3 yrs now and still tough as hell. Next upgrade for it will be a WaveTrac.