wanting to install a cam

**formulajman** · 05-24-2011, 02:29 PM

my 2001 formula has the LS1 with the LS6 manifold and intake. my mods are:
long tube headers
full slp exhaust
slp lid
msd ignition tune up package
and a custom made ram air hood

im looking for a cam package at the moment and i wanted to know how big some of you guys have gone with your cam without putting a stall. ive heard the MS2 - MS4 is a good choice but no one i have talked to has actually had that setup. eventually i will purchase the stall and flex plate but how big can i go?

**ls1wallen** · 05-24-2011, 03:26 PM

I am running a stock stall with the 228R cam. The car will get up to about 10mph on its own without gasing it from a dead stop. You have to hold the brake like crazy. Your tuner my not like you much lol

Can it be done yes
Should it be done no

**mark21742** · 05-25-2011, 06:34 AM

I would definitely do a stall first. If you go with around a 3,600-3,800 stall you will love it....if you do Ho with a can first it will be more of a pain to drive and a lot less fun. plus with just a new higher rpm stale you can knock a half a second off your 1/4 mile time. Where with just a cam and no stall you will probably run slower.

**98TransAmWs-6** · 05-25-2011, 07:37 AM

I would get a stall first and then get a cam. What is with all these people wanting cams without a stall.

**Firebirdjones** · 05-25-2011, 08:37 AM

I don't know, I've seen that alot lately. Not sure why there are so many people wanting cams before converters.
That's a general no no, and creates poor driveability. Pushing through the brakes, poor idle quality while in gear etc etc...
After a week of trying to drive a car like that, you'll be screaming for that converter.

Do the converter first. The fun factor of the car goes up 110%, and it'll knock 1/2 second off your times easily to boot.
In the end, the converter is much cheaper (and easier) to do anyway. You won't regret the converter swap.

**rc74racer** · 05-25-2011, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by 98TransAmWs-6

I would get a stall first and then get a cam. What is with all these people wanting cams without a stall.

They are obsessed with power numbers and not performance. It's the same reason why some people go with huge cams and then wonder why their car doesn't perform like they thought it would. Dyno numbers are good for nothing but shit talking the proof is in the time slip.

**WICKEDLS1** · 05-25-2011, 10:04 AM

228R on a 112 lsa here with no convertor. IMO get the convertor first, i have one sitting in my closet just dont have the time to put it in just yet

**My00Z28** · 05-25-2011, 10:13 AM

to answer your question like others have said a 3600-4000+ stall is recommended for an ms3-ms4 cam... it can be done but like others said it will be rough... you will also want some SFC(Sub-Frame Connectors)...

ya im one of those people that asked one of these questions also the reason for it was because i could get a good deal on a new cam(about $100 off) and i was seeing if it would have to collect dust for a bit or if i could run it right aways.... no need to be bashing on everyone that comes to ls1.com and asking a question about something that no others would do, an honest answer all they are looking for then its up to them...

**98TransAmWs-6** · 05-25-2011, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by My00Z28

to answer your question like others have said a 3600-4000+ stall is recommended for an ms3-ms4 cam... it can be done but like others said it will be rough... you will also want some SFC(Sub-Frame Connectors)...

ya im one of those people that asked one of these questions also the reason for it was because i could get a good deal on a new cam(about $100 off) and i was seeing if it would have to collect dust for a bit or if i could run it right aways.... no need to be bashing on everyone that comes to ls1.com and asking a question about something that no others would do, an honest answer all they are looking for then its up to them...

Who was bashing? Everyone in this thread has just given their honest answer and the proper way to mod. Sorry if someone doesn't like it but it's the truth.

**My00Z28** · 05-25-2011, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by 98TransAmWs-6

I would get a stall first and then get a cam. What is with all these people wanting cams without a stall

In another post some one says that they do it so it can be done and the OP stated that he will be getting a stall also!

Originally Posted by rc74racer

They are obsessed with power numbers and not performance. It's the same reason why some people go with huge cams and then wonder why their car doesn't perform like they thought it would. Dyno numbers are good for nothing but shit talking the proof is in the time slip.

not all people are about numbers those cams sound awesome and they rev super high with the correct setup they stand their ground, making good numbers and a nice little slip!

im just pointing it out the problem with any kind of text it can be misread into something else. asking why everyone is wanting to do this and shit talking is all you will get from it...ect? but what ever it may not of been intended for bash or anything like that just saying, on to original topic!

**98TransAmWs-6** · 05-25-2011, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by My00Z28

In another post some one says that they do it so it can be done and the OP stated that he will be getting a stall also!

We said that it shouldn't be done, not that it can't be done. As in the smart way to do it would be to get the stall first so you aren't wanting the stall after you put the cam in.

Originally Posted by My00Z28

not all people are about numbers those cams sound awesome and they rev super high with the correct setup they stand their ground, making good numbers and a nice little slip!

I believe what he was saying is that people who don't get stalls first (not all people) are just power hungry just want the power and don't get the right set up for what they want, so they don't end up standing their ground. Yes a big cam can stand its ground it just needs to be paired up with the right heads and intake, along with a stall that is right for its powerband.

Originally Posted by My00Z28

im just pointing it out the problem with any kind of text it can be misread into something else. asking why everyone is wanting to do this and shit talking is all you will get from it...ect? but what ever it may not of been intended for bash or anything like that just saying, on to original topic!

I dunno but to me it seemed more like constructive criticism, not bashing.

**mark21742** · 05-25-2011, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by 98TransAmWs-6

Yes a big cam can stand its ground it just needs to be paired up with the right heads and intake, along with a stall that is right for its powerband.

I like my 255/263 .624/.624 115 lsa cam, and love the sound of my 408 at 7,500+ rpms

I am power hungry

**WICKEDLS1** · 05-25-2011, 11:35 AM

thats when you say bye bye to gas mileage

**rc74racer** · 05-25-2011, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by My00Z28

In another post some one says that they do it so it can be done and the OP stated that he will be getting a stall also!

not all people are about numbers those cams sound awesome and they rev super high with the correct setup they stand their ground, making good numbers and a nice little slip!

im just pointing it out the problem with any kind of text it can be misread into something else. asking why everyone is wanting to do this and shit talking is all you will get from it...ect? but what ever it may not of been intended for bash or anything like that just saying, on to original topic!

I never bashed the original poster merely answered a question with my opinion from another poster.

You hit the nail right on the head there "with correct setup". I never said there is anything wrong with a big cam but just throwing one in there to make a number or because it sounds cool is stupid. Lots of things can be done but they don't always make good sense. If you're going to go with a large cam for whatever reason you will be much happier with your results if you have the proper supporting mods. There is no reason to get your panties in a wad because someone stated a simple fact.

**ls1wallen** · 05-25-2011, 03:23 PM

I have been running for 4 months without a stall. Its NOT that bad. Yes it can be annoying at times but i dont regret it. People saying it will make you slower is a lie. Its all in the tuning.

**Firebirdjones** · 05-25-2011, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by ls1wallen

I have been running for 4 months without a stall. Its NOT that bad. Yes it can be annoying at times but i dont regret it. People saying it will make you slower is a lie. Its all in the tuning.

That won't convince someone like me that's been around this stuff more than 30 years. Cams without converters is not a good idea at all.

You are running what I consider a baby cam (228 at .050 on a 112 lsa) that's really mild.
I can make a cam like that live without a converter as well with some trickery tuning in a smallish 350 ci. Advance the cam 4-6 degrees to smooth the idle, run alot of initial timing to smooth the idle, fatten the idle circuits to make it happy, (or idle tables with fuel injection).
But you'll still have to bump the idle speed up higher than what should be satisfactory just to get the car to idle happily in gear. Which pushes through the brakes.
Poor vacuum signal is another issue with larger cams and no stall, depending on other variables. Not to mention waiting for the engine to get up into it's new powerband of 4,000 + on a stockish 1800 stall isn't any fun either.
I can go on and on. I have had customers want the same thing, I turn them away because I just don't want my work running around like that, may cause inaccurate assumptions.

I simply just don't recommend it.

To go a little further with that, comparing your cam size of 228 at .050,,,,which is similar (and considered on the small side) to many cams that were offered in the 60's for factory muscle cars.
Like the little L79 327/350hp engine for example. 221/221 at .050 with .447 lift on a 114 lsa. GM wouldn't offer an auto behind even this small of a cam, and there is a reason for that. Torque converter technoligy was in it's infancy back then. Because of that, GM never offered an automatic behind any of these hotter engines, including the solid lifter engines where duration numbers got up into the 250+ range. It was 4 speed only until 69 when they finally started offering autos behind them, and even then the stock converters weren't all that great.

**ls1wallen** · 05-25-2011, 04:26 PM

Can it be done yes . Should it be done no. I am just saying to all of the people that come in bashing some one that doesnt run a stall. I have had zero problems with it. Do you have to hold the brakes a little more yes. I dont have any surge. It idles at 600 rpms in gear. Unlike my mustang buddy with no stall has to keep it up to almost 1k rpms but, he's running on a handheld tuner

I was actually able to run my car untuned ( to make sure everything was installed right). For the size of the cam. I didnt want a massive cam. I was looking for a power proven cam.

The stall and cam pose to all been put in at once. I ended up having to pay uncle sam my money i had saved for the stall. After talking to frost for about an hour he was able to do it.

What it all comes down to is how good your tuner is.

**formulajman** · 05-25-2011, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by 98TransAmWs-6

I would get a stall first and then get a cam. What is with all these people wanting cams without a stall.

if i knew i would perform better with a stall maybe i wouldnt have asked that question. i appreciate your two cents

**Firebirdjones** · 05-25-2011, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by ls1wallen

Can it be done yes . Should it be done no. I am just saying to all of the people that come in bashing some one that doesnt run a stall. I have had zero problems with it. Do you have to hold the brakes a little more yes. I dont have any surge. It idles at 600 rpms in gear. Unlike my mustang buddy with no stall has to keep it up to almost 1k rpms but, he's running on a handheld tuner

I was actually able to run my car untuned ( to make sure everything was installed right). For the size of the cam. I didnt want a massive cam. I was looking for a power proven cam.

The stall and cam pose to all been put in at once. I ended up having to pay uncle sam my money i had saved for the stall. After talking to frost for about an hour he was able to do it.

What it all comes down to is how good your tuner is.

Nobody is bashing that I can see, and I read though all this twice. Looks pretty civil to me with good suggestions.

It's really not a matter of tuning. I think what others are trying to say is that a larger cam without a converter just doesn't make a good combination. I guess if you can live with soggy performance until 3500 rpms and you don't mind the drivability issues it causes (even after tuning),,,then sure.

**Firebirdjones** · 05-25-2011, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by formulajman

if i knew i would perform better with a stall maybe i wouldnt have asked that question. i appreciate your two cents

98TA is just trying to lead you in the right direction before you plunk a bunch of money down and then wind up not being happy with the car. Nothing he said warranted a response like that.
If you absolutely have to buy a cam right now, I'd suggest sitting on it until you can afford to buy the stall too,,,then do it all at once.