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vindicator or ms4 with a 150shot

This is a discussion on vindicator or ms4 with a 150shot within the Internal Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; just like the title says ... daily driven car but i race probly almost everyday also its a 3600 stall ...

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    vindicator or ms4 with a 150shot

    just like the title says ... daily driven car but i race probly almost everyday also its a 3600 stall 373 car full bolt ons with ls6 intake. and the vindicator is 240/244 .608/.596 112+4 and the ms4 is 239/242, .649"/.609" and i would get the ms4 on a 110 with 4 advance.
    Last edited by getthesand0ut; 07-12-2007 at 02:05 PM.

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    Old LS1.com member bluethunder2's Avatar
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    I would go Vindicator. The profile is AWESOME for NA, and a little better for nitrous (in my opinion). Neither cams are good nitrous cams especially for an A4. But, if you're like me, you want the best NA and just let nitrous add to it.

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    the vindicator does sound like alot better cam but on the other site and from what ive heard people still insist on goin with the ms4. but the only vids ive seen of the ms4 are speedinjection's trans am wich hauls major ass.. ms4 with 150 kit ..

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    anyone else use big cams and bottle????

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    Old LS1.com member bluethunder2's Avatar
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    Yep, that's because the MS4 has been around longer. The Vidicator with TFS heads and FAST 90/90 has put out 500 rwhp and 470 plus on several cars...NA

    Give Mike and Ron a call they will not steer you wrong.

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    ya i already know the ms4 with a 150 hauls ass.. i havent found anyone runnin the vindicator on bottle yet. just tryin to see what runsbest.. ive found that the vindicator makes better tourqe down low also.

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    no more 4th gen secondgearscratch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by getthesand0ut View Post
    just like the title says ... daily driven car but i race probly almost everyday also its a 3600 stall 373 car full bolt ons with ls6 intake. and the vindicator is 240/244 .608/.596 112+4 and the ms4 is 239/242, .649"/.609" and i would get the ms4 on a 110 with 4 advance.
    i wouldnt use magic stick for and daily driven in the same sentence.

    you better get a bigger stall for these cams. like a 4000 atleast. i dont know, those gears may be o.k.

    what are you wanting out of this car, because that kind of duration in a daily driver is kind of silly. the idle is gonna be around 900 if youre lucky. after seeing a large cammed car run this past weekend, im just not impressed....

    and do you mean street race? i hate to tell you bro but cars with a much smaller heads and cam combo are gonna eat you alive.

    how much do you wanna spray?

    sorry if im coming off as a dick. i dont mean too. i just think you should think this through if you want to daily drive it. cams these large arent designed for that kind of driving.

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    lets put it this way when i do drive i race. around were i live we have alot of car things going on drivability is not what im to concerned with andi would a 150 hit.and ive seen what a ms4 on a 150 kit can do search speedinjection's trans am. most of our races go from a role of some sort also not to maney dig places around here. and yes i know smaller combo cars will get out stronger at the begining but i would run them down like a train before the quarter esp. with a 150 i just tryin to get some more info on how the vindicator reacts on the bottle

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    Pathelogical Liar BlackLT1Z28's Avatar
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    From what I've heard, the MS4 cam is a beastly cam. But I have heard it get beat consistantly by smaller cams. Its a dyno cam more than anything I think. I'm sure it has its time and place though. I'd go vindicator.

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    Slower Than a 3rd Gen juiced99ws6's Avatar
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    im with secondgearscratch on this one, this is just silly. if you had a built engine and much bigger stall and this was a weekend strip car then you would be ok with either one. You are talking about cams here that peak at RPM ranges I dont ever wanna even see. you will not run down a smaller cam car in the quarter either. the reason people put a stall in an a4 is to keep you in your powerband and get rid of any "dead spots" or lag in power. With a cam this large you are just going to create dead spots again which you will more than likely hit upon every gear change. VTEC effect

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    no more 4th gen secondgearscratch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by getthesand0ut View Post
    lets put it this way when i do drive i race. around were i live we have alot of car things going on drivability is not what im to concerned with andi would a 150 hit.and ive seen what a ms4 on a 150 kit can do search speedinjection's trans am. most of our races go from a role of some sort also not to maney dig places around here. and yes i know smaller combo cars will get out stronger at the begining but i would run them down like a train before the quarter esp. with a 150 i just tryin to get some more info on how the vindicator reacts on the bottle
    someone misinformed you then man. cam only cars are great and shit but no one drives them on the street. you can read all you want on the net but the fact is a smaller cam with matching flow heads will stomp out a ms4 cam only car any day of the week. you have to spin the motor high to start catching up and im not about a thin powerband and a high revving ls1.

    the ms4 is and will always be a peak dyno queen that gets hammered on the street. the guy i know who has one has to stay on the throttle to keep it from dying, idling at 900! they dont tell you that shit when they act like these huge cams are amazing. plus the cam surge and the shitty shitty power under 4000 rpms. that means if we raced id be a few car lengths up the road and you'd be wondering what was going on. you dont really want that do you?

    go alittle smaller and keep some civility and power in the low rpm range.

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    Slower Than a 3rd Gen juiced99ws6's Avatar
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    I will post dyno numbers on my setup tomorrow and you can see if it is adequate for what you want to do. I have stage 2 ls1 heads and a 230-236 cam which I think is a great setup (even a little large) for an A4 car

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    alright thanks alot man.. its just hard i hang out with a pretty big car group. fuelsluts and there is crazy ass shit there ms4 zo6s to the stealth cars lately the big cam cars have been dominating tho.. a buddy of mine has stealth II only and went 11.6 at 116 with a 1.58. car is stout for sure. but on the highway it does not mean that much when he goes up against a ms4 car i guess thats y i was leanin towards it. lets put it this way i want the strongest cam i can get with my mods and on the 150.

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    insert witty title here Blk00ws6's Avatar
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    ok, I don't mean to thread hijack, but I need some clarification. Define "street-friendly", "streetable" etc. What's makes the MS4 not so "streetable"? Is it the idle? Powerband? Is it pretty much what secondgearscratch said?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk00ws6 View Post
    ok, I don't mean to thread hijack, but I need some clarification. Define "street-friendly", "streetable" etc. What's makes the MS4 not so "streetable"? Is it the idle? Powerband? Is it pretty much what secondgearscratch said?
    ok. let me clarify because i sense that im coming off as kind of a douche bag and i really dont mean to.

    i am not saying that large cammed cars do not make power.

    they do however make peak or after the curve horsepower. this generally comes on at a much higher rpm than you may be used to.

    the stock ls1 cam in my opinion is pretty darn good at making some good under the curve torque and remain very very tame at cruising speeds. it has a very good top end also with the 3.42 gears (as it pertains to my m6 car). it is a very "small" cam and heads set up but does well. the word im going to stress here is "combination" which has pretty much been beaten into the ground.

    peak horsepower is great------on a dyno. but in the real world under the curve power should be the focus. i suppose if you go out and street race the standing 2 mile stretch its ok to have a gargantuan cam only car but i for one race the 1320 and i like torque.

    to the OP, your buddies 11.6 is very respectable but there are too many factors to list as to why he may or may not be peaking with his setup. i think you are wondering why the smaller cam and heads on your buddies car is only running a 11.6 when you know your other buddies magic stick 4 is a beast on the highway. have that guy make a track pass. see what it reads.

    there are way more in these cars than people think. it seems like if someone doesnt run a 10 with longtubes they wanna get a donkey dick cam and then they just "know" theyre gonna run 10s. its the driving as much as anything else, and the suspension and weight. alot of horsepower means dick if you cant put it to the ground and drive it.

    i dont know shit but if there are any questions, after i butcher them i will get some one who knows a thang er two.....

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    insert witty title here Blk00ws6's Avatar
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    LOL.... no, I didn't think you were coming off as a douche bag. I literally needed clarification on what "streetable" is. If it was just something as superficial as too rough of an idle, that would not turn me away. I want some rumpity rump and I know the MS4 has it. But backing it up with actual reasons why it's not good on the street, like it would get whooped because where the power is made. I want a lumpy mean idle, but don't want "all show and no go" shall I say. So thanks! Sweet deal. Whenever I actually decide to do heada/cam/intake, I'll researce deeper in the cam dept.

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    no more 4th gen secondgearscratch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk00ws6 View Post
    LOL.... no, I didn't think you were coming off as a douche bag. I literally needed clarification on what "streetable" is. If it was just something as superficial as too rough of an idle, that would not turn me away. I want some rumpity rump and I know the MS4 has it. But backing it up with actual reasons why it's not good on the street, like it would get whooped because where the power is made. I want a lumpy mean idle, but don't want "all show and no go" shall I say. So thanks! Sweet deal. Whenever I actually decide to do heada/cam/intake, I'll researce deeper in the cam dept.
    and just so you know too, you can have the lumpy idle without a huge peak power cam. its all about the centers the cam is ground on. the lobe seperation angle which affects valve overlap and at less rpms creates that choppy sound you like. look into a 112 or even a 110 l.s.a. cam if you need that vintage cam chop.

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    insert witty title here Blk00ws6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by secondgearscratch View Post
    and just so you know too, you can have the lumpy idle without a huge peak power cam. its all about the centers the cam is ground on. the lobe seperation angle which affects valve overlap and at less rpms creates that choppy sound you like. look into a 112 or even a 110 l.s.a. cam if you need that vintage cam chop.
    Yeah, I knew the LSA was what the chop was all about. I just was looking at the MS4 because it picked up in the neighborhood of 80hp on the dyno. I just didn't look too hard into it to know that that cam was a dyno queen and not much for where (in my opinion) it counts, at the track and on the street. And now I know, and knowing is half the battle. It's not that I need the cam chop, it's that I want the cam chop. That's all I need, again, sorry for thread-jacking. Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by getthesand0ut View Post
    alright thanks alot man.. its just hard i hang out with a pretty big car group. fuelsluts and there is crazy ass shit there ms4 zo6s to the stealth cars lately the big cam cars have been dominating tho.. a buddy of mine has stealth II only and went 11.6 at 116 with a 1.58. car is stout for sure. but on the highway it does not mean that much when he goes up against a ms4 car i guess thats y i was leanin towards it. lets put it this way i want the strongest cam i can get with my mods and on the 150.
    sorry dude, had an issue with my battery dying that im sorting out so she didnt get on the dyno yet but hopefully soon my friend

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