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TSP Setup is this streetable

This is a discussion on TSP Setup is this streetable within the Internal Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Hey guys I had purchased this setup just cuz I thought I'd get big #'s out of it but I ...

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    Member Eganslp's Avatar
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    TSP Setup is this streetable

    Hey guys I had purchased this setup just cuz I thought I'd get big #'s out of it but I guess not from what ppl are saying, "since it's a small cu" engine I won't see anything over 450 or maybe 480 unless I'm boosted. Which ok I'll live!! Is this true tho? & I jus wanna know can my car still be streetable? (I'm guessing the means 93 octane or lower) idk from what I hear everybodies has their own version of streetable, but I jus wanna know if I can be pump gas friendly? Do I have to buy a different cam? This is what I have 227cc PRC proted CNC heads with the dual spring kit to I think the .675" lift (pic below)

    With a 102mm T\B & Intake Manifold (pic below)
    Ah damn I deleted it well ill post them up when I can get to them sry for that
    Also the ms4 cam and 7.4 pushrods and the CTS-V racing Hyd. Liters on stock rockers but hopefully not for long I want the trunion comp cams style. This is all on the stock bottom end with stage 2 trans, spec stage 3+ clutch, moser 9" and rebuilt driveshaft.


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    Slow'er'Ass Mr. Luos's Avatar
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    I do not believe the MS4 cam is streetable.
    But it is all in what you can put up with. Everyone will say it is different.

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    Veteran Blackbird WS6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Luos View Post
    But it is all in what you can put up with. Everyone will say it is different.
    well said

    plus why did you get that cam? i think a custom grind is your best bet to go with to get the numbers you want and keep it somewhat streetable

    what CC are those heads? make sure you dont have to flycut

    going to have run like a 4.30 gear, power is going to be in the higher RPMs with that setup....most likely wont feel it until 3500rpms or so
    Last edited by Blackbird WS6; 11-13-2010 at 08:00 PM.

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    Member c5z28's Avatar
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    A friend went for a 224 cam to the ms4 and now misses the 224
    The cam used in the "500rwhp recipe" is a 224/228 cam.

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    Veteran Blackbird WS6's Avatar
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    if i remember right the people running the TF 515 setup are seeing about 450 at the tires with a much smaller cam...you might want to look into that setup

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    Member zmg00camaross's Avatar
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    I like the OP set up, But me can handle and like a big cam and think a MS4 is fine on the street. Probly not daily driver. but its all what you can take. I think the OP setup will make damn good power for a street/strip car. But like I said in the other thread it mite not make 500 rwhp but it will be a beast for sure.

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    Member Eganslp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Luos View Post
    I do not believe the MS4 cam is streetable.
    But it is all in what you can put up with. Everyone will say it is different.
    No it's not in yet I wish, and ill put up with a big cam dont mind the gas if thats what ya mean. Right now i can't afford it yet. The guy I whose going to do it wants 1800 $ to put it in along with three dyno pulls. As for the cam, you don't think that cam be run on pump gas(I only use 93)?

    And for heads these are the specs:
    227cc Fully CNC Ported Intake Runners
    84cc Fully CNC Ported Exhaust Runners
    Small Bore Chambers For Increased Horsepower & Torque+
    PRC Platinum Spring Kit Rated To .650" Lift (but I think I got the .675")
    62cc or 70cc CNC Machined Chambers
    2.06" Intake / 1.60" Stainless Valves
    Chromoly pushrods 7.4"
    And CTS-v Hyd. Lifters
    Factory Rocker Friendly!!*(so that's ? I'm using for now)

    And it never said anything about flycutting I'm gonna give them a call Tom. To find out cause now I'm nervous and hope I don't have to. I honestly couldn't afford something like that. I can't even get this shit put in!! It makes me sad!!! I just want my car to get put back together without any worries that's all. I feel like I just wasted 12k on shitt that ain't gonna work.

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  8. #8
    A big cam needs other things to be streetable. Those who say cams like the MS4 aren't streetable build an engine and not the car, and put a junk mail-order tune in it. The MS4 will work great if you have the compression and gearing to compliment it along with a tuner that knows what their doing. A minimum of 11.5:1 with at least a 4.10 or 4.30 gear should be used. In fact, my MS4 behaves as well as my old 221/221 cam did.

    Your setup will most likely make less than 480rwhp, but that will depend upon the little details beyond just the parts, and the compression ratio. Regardless, you've got the parts to make a very strong 346, you just need to make them all work. Your 515rwhp goal I saw from another thread is impossible.

    Do you already have the heads? What chambers? What gaskets? I would recommend a minimum 62cc, ideally around 59cc, and a .040" head gasket. That will give you good quench and compression, while still remaining pump gas friendly (quality 93 octane!!). Only downside is that you may need to clearance the pistons, but let that worry you. It sounds more intimidating than it really is.
    Last edited by Marc 85Z28; 11-12-2010 at 12:37 PM.

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    All you can do at this point is put it together and see what kind of numbers you put down if that's all you are concerned about.
    For big numbers I would have taken a different approach with heads and cam. It's also going to take things like 1 7/8 inch headers, a real exhaust system, and alot of rpms with a little 346, and a 4.56 gear to exploit it. Something I wouldn't want to do on a stock bottom end naturally aspirated for very long.

    In my opinion the MS4 isn't really that big, the .050 numbers look pretty tame to me. Others feel it's radical and are used to the baby cams. Only you can decide for yourself what you like and don't like. But I would think the track times would be the ultimate goal and not a dyno queen.
    Just do the best you can with it for what you can afford and be happy with what you get.

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    My understanding of a cam with a grind like the MS4 is that it is more of a peak HP type of cam. So, lets say he gets to 500 rwhp (I know this isn't a likely possibility - but its a nice round number). Isn't he likely to be down in the 420ish rwtq type of number, with his peak torque fairly late in the RPM range.

    If I am right, I think that's what takes away from the streetability of a cam setup like that.

    A bump in compression is a bump in tq all over the RPM range, which is why Marc would suggest going with high compression on those heads. Going with the gears will get you into the meat of your tq curve faster - thus making the power a little more usable on the street.

    I have a custom grind cam, full race exh, lid, maf, and a tune and have 402rwhp/399 rwtq. My cam specs are along the lines of a hybrid of the TSP Torquer series of cam, something in the vicinity of a Torquer V2.5ish. On the dyno, my cam looks great. Pull starts @ 2200 thru 6800, 320 ftlbs + from 2200 through 6200, the tq hit comes in @ the same spot as stock cam, but is bigger and more aggressive.

    Here's the rub though... I can tell you that I lost around town drivability AND highway drivability. What neither my stock dyno or my cammed and tuned dyno shows is what that tq curve looks like below 2200. Gone are the days where this car can be short shifted @1800 and putter around in traffic, same with those "pauses" at stop signs in 2nd gear, unless its downhill. I live in the rolling foothills of SE PA Northeast of Philly. There is a 55mph highway near my house that I can't use 6th on, because @60 in 6th my car doesn't have the tq to pull up some of the, not really all that big that big, hills and starts to lug.

    On the other hand, with the weather now much cooler, at nights with the air temps in the high 30s, I have to be careful with the go pedal in 1st and 2nd, lest the traction control get a workout.

    Your cam is "bigger" than mine, and less low end torque happy.

    Oh, and if you want to make your RWPH numbers look really nice, put on a pair of the cheapest/lightest tires you can find, then burn the tread down. Thats good for about 25 or 30 rwhp over running a set of 315s. Rotational inertia baby...

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    Oh, and while you're already "dirty" with those heads, and into the car for 10k, might as well drop the extra 4 or 500 and get a set of roller rockers... Probably leaving 15 or 20hp on the table by staying with the stock rockers.

  12. #12
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gashkerwin View Post
    Here's the rub though... I can tell you that I lost around town drivability AND highway drivability. What neither my stock dyno or my cammed and tuned dyno shows is what that tq curve looks like below 2200. Gone are the days where this car can be short shifted @1800 and putter around in traffic, same with those "pauses" at stop signs in 2nd gear, unless its downhill. I live in the rolling foothills of SE PA Northeast of Philly. There is a 55mph highway near my house that I can't use 6th on, because @60 in 6th my car doesn't have the tq to pull up some of the, not really all that big that big, hills and starts to lug.
    .
    And here is where you touch on how a thumpy cam acts in a stick car. Stick cars are not as forgiving as an auto with a cushy converter when it comes to drivability.
    With a stick car you will always find that spot where the cam lugs and chugs, bucks and kicks, if you try to drive it around at low rpms. A thumpy cam won't be very happy in 6th gear, even with a mild 4.10 rear gear. Since you cut that in half with a .50 overdrive, you'll have to be moving along at a pretty good clip to keep that engine from chugging. You'll even find yourself driving around town in a lower gear just to keep the rpms up so it doesn't chug around, or put even more rearend gear in it.

    Interesting you brought this up, I think it's something that others don't take into consideration with a stick car. The auto guys have it much easier in this respect.

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    Right on. His cam is much "thumpier" than mind too. 111 LSA on that puppy - 113.5 on mine. Open the garage door BEFORE you start that car up in the morning on a cold day...

    I was too lazy to look back @ other threads to see if he's mentioned whether its auto or stick.

    Very right though, the tq converter will do loads to "smooth" out the cam for around town driving, though the shift points are still going to have to come way up - hundreds of RPM. I would wager that his idle speed might creep near 4 digits too.

    I definitely drive a gear lower than stock to keep the RPM up, all the time basically. Tell you what though, you get this car on a highway 65mph, set the cruise @ 80, and 6th is great - and will still get you low 20mpg.

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    Member Eganslp's Avatar
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    So what are you guys saying that I should sell that cam and go with something smaller? See the thing is that i didnt know what im doing or how to go about this. Honestly all I wanted to do was get the most streetable power I could get with a head and cam. So I had seen tsp's run and wanted their setup just of that and well I guess thats the price I pay. But the thing is I'm not auto. So I dont wanna lauch that high in my rpms b/c I'm stick an can't get the thing to stick at 2k. I never knew about the torque curvature or anything like that I just bought it b/c it said that it produced 60hp alone on the dyno but obviously thats not how it works. So Look I guess I'm just afraid to put the parts in b/c I dont want to waste even more of my money with it not being right but it's def too late for my heads to be taken back cuz they were milled to my specs so what cam should I look into buying Instead or the ms4 fine. I was all about the hp/tq but seriously what drove me to get head and cam(haha)was for the loopy sound.(haha) seriously!!! Ha I know that's a lot of money to spend, but then I figured if I'm gonna do it then go big right? Or at least that's what I thought. So I guess Im gonna need some serious help then. What will work for this heads setup:
    227cc Fully CNC Ported Intake Runners
    84cc Fully CNC Ported Exhaust Runners
    Small Bore Chambers For Increased Horsepower & Torque+
    PRC Platinum dual Spring Kit Rated To .675" Lift
    62cc CNC Machined Chambers (they told me to stay small I couldve went to 70cc idky)
    2.06" Intake / 1.60" Stainless Valves
    Comp cam trunion rocker kit
    CTS-v racing hyd. Lifters
    m6 & 9" w/ 4.11's

    Please help me!!!!!! Idk ? I'm doing obviously.




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    I've never seen a car with a cam like that in it before, so I can't really say it won't be streetable. Plus like others have said, there are different ideas on streetable. If that a car I would want to drive every day to work? No... mine isn't either, city or stop and go driving in my car is not that fun.

    Since you're not going to do the work yourself, a try it and see approach might not be that great for you.

    Ultimately, I think going with a rear is the right move, but now you're talking about dropping another 2500... As it stands you'll need an after market clutch, and a mild upgrade probably won't get you there either - if you've already got something like a Spec Stage 2, or a z06, those are better than stock, but you'll never put that power down because either your tires will slip or your clutch will. So, tack another $500 or more onto your build price.

    On the plus side, if you do decide to swap the cam, I would guess, based on what people have said about TSP that they'd be willing to just swap cams with you, and you might just have to pay shipping both ways.

    There's tons of guys on these boards from the Philly area. Maybe post something in the regional section. You might find someone with a similarly large cam, something like an MS3 or 4, or and LG G5X3 type cam that would meet up with you and take you for a ride, or even let you drive.

    If you want to make the trip out to pottstown, you can check out my car... what you plan to do to your car will, as I said, be slightly "worse" to drive than mine. How much, I'm not sure, but I would think it would be noticable.

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    Member zmg00camaross's Avatar
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    OP It is a big cam, But with a good tuner it will be driveable and a beast. IMO I would installed what you have and let it fly.

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    Member Eganslp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gashkerwin View Post
    I've never seen a car with a cam like that in it before, so I can't really say it won't be streetable. Plus like others have said, there are different ideas on streetable. If that a car I would want to drive every day to work? No... mine isn't either, city or stop and go driving in my car is not that fun.

    Since you're not going to do the work yourself, a try it and see approach might not be that great for you.

    Ultimately, I think going with a rear is the right move, but now you're talking about dropping another 2500... As it stands you'll need an after market clutch, and a mild upgrade probably won't get you there either - if you've already got something like a Spec Stage 2, or a z06, those are better than stock, but you'll never put that power down because either your tires will slip or your clutch will. So, tack another $500 or more onto your build price.

    On the plus side, if you do decide to swap the cam, I would guess, based on what people have said about TSP that they'd be willing to just swap cams with you, and you might just have to pay shipping both ways.

    There's tons of guys on these boards from the Philly area. Maybe post something in the regional section. You might find someone with a similarly large cam, something like an MS3 or 4, or and LG G5X3 type cam that would meet up with you and take you for a ride, or even let you drive.

    If you want to make the trip out to pottstown, you can check out my car... what you plan to do to your car will, as I said, be slightly "worse" to drive than mine. How much, I'm not sure, but I would think it would be noticable.
    I like the way you think!!! I tried doing that and nobody came into the thread from philly, but w/e I'll try it again.
    Lol "if you start the thread they will come" lol
    (ps-revised piece from field of dreams. Just in case no one got it)

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    Member xmarkx's Avatar
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    to the OP:

    you will definately need to check your piston to valve clearance. the PTV gets very close with unmilled stock heads. I'm not aware of the original deck height of your heads but I know this cam needs a good amount of space.

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