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Trick Flow - 220cc Fast as Cast vs 215cc Finished

This is a discussion on Trick Flow - 220cc Fast as Cast vs 215cc Finished within the Internal Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Has anyone heard anything either good or bad about the new Trick Flow Fast As Cast 220cc Heads that they ...

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    Trick Flow - 220cc Fast as Cast vs 215cc Finished

    Has anyone heard anything either good or bad about the new Trick Flow Fast As Cast 220cc Heads that they have out for the LS1. They are considerably cheaper than thier top of the line, fully finished 215cc heads but I don't see them for sale at many places and there is virtually nothing that I can find for information, or reviews on them.

    What little I have learned is that they are priced similar to a PRC head, and trick flow makes the general statement "They flow nearly identical to our 215cc head but at an economical price" and in thier detailed section of website Trick Flow states "they are suitable for builds up to 550hp" while they claim "builds up to 600hp" with thier 215cc head. But this is all just the usual advertising stuff you see about every product from any company.

    If anyone has any real knowledge of these heads I would appreciate hearing it.

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    I have never run them, but I have heard a lot of good things about them. Depending on what you want to spend and what you plan to do with the car. Price wise they are in between the budget heads PRC, Patriot etc and the better heads, standard Trick Flows and Airflow.

    The nice thing is if you want to step up again after you run the heads is you can have them ported for cheaper than buying new heads.

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    Here are flow #'s from straight from TFS:

    lift intake exhaust

    100 67 47
    200 133 104
    300 211 167
    400 261 202
    500 292 222
    550 299 229
    600 305 233

    Tests conducted at 28" of water pressure.
    CNC profiled chambers; exhaust with 1 7/8" pipe.

    To put this in perspective thes heads flow at 400 what an untouched 243 casting does at 600.

    If you compare it with the TFS CNC'ed 215 head it gets beat of course but hangs pretty good especially on the intake side. It makes almost as as good or slightly better #'s than other proprietary CNC'ed castings. Rember you still have to buy a $400 set of RR's. I heard TEA will do a little handwork for reasonable and bump them up but not sure... TEA also puts nice doubles and Ti retainers on them....

    Edit: Yes you can have them CNC'ed later but you are limited to the larger valve 235cc program....
    Last edited by SOMbitch; 03-11-2010 at 08:26 AM.

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    It is tempting to save $ by going with a head that does need new RR's but, wasn't there an issue being talked about a while back regarding the stock RRs and thier inclination to failing.
    I don't remember why they were failing, but I'll do a bit of reading and try to dig it up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Intrepidman View Post
    It is tempting to save $ by going with a head that does need new RR's but, wasn't there an issue being talked about a while back regarding the stock RRs and thier inclination to failing.
    I don't remember why they were failing, but I'll do a bit of reading and try to dig it up.
    They puke needle bearings sometimes. The easy fix is buying the upgrade kit from Comp ($125) and doing it yourself or sending them off to Harland Sharp for a rebuild ($260).

    The reason you you have to run RR's with TFS is you cannot get correct geometry with the stockers. This causes the rocker to scrub across the valve tip and prematurely wears the guides.

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    How sever is loosing a needle bearing?
    If its the type of failure that gets expensive when it causes other parts to fail along with it, then I might consider an upgrade as good insurance

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    cutting and welding mark21742's Avatar
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    It honestly depends on where the needle bearing go when they shoot out...most of the time they just fall out and lay in the top of the head...but they can go other places too

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    vengeance racing uses the 220 cast head in kit ,$2700.head/cam/rocker arms/push rods/bolts/gaskets.I have herd 10 hp less than a cnc 215 TFS.

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    cutting and welding mark21742's Avatar
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    That is a great price!

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    do TFS LS heads use ls1 coolant lines?I have a intake valve leak on#7,241 heads .how much for a valve job?I hate to dump any money into these heads ,I would like to step up to some TFS 220 heads.
    Last edited by garygnu65; 03-12-2010 at 04:42 AM. Reason: more infor

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    thought i would just add, from my research i found that the TFS 220cc flow around 285cfm on the intake out of the box NOT the 305cfm that they claim, anyhow i just had a set of 220s hand ported by my engine builder and had them flow tested, results are 325cfm on intake and 256cfm exhaust, all figures qouted at .600 lift
    04 ss commodore with a very angry 346ci

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    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DR-vyss-108 View Post
    thought i would just add, from my research i found that the TFS 220cc flow around 285cfm on the intake out of the box NOT the 305cfm that they claim, anyhow i just had a set of 220s hand ported by my engine builder and had them flow tested, results are 325cfm on intake and 256cfm exhaust, all figures qouted at .600 lift
    I'm with you there... they do not make the expected numbers on the dyno in the "as-cast" configuration either.

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    Hmmm....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    I'm with you there... they do not make the expected numbers on the dyno in the "as-cast" configuration either.
    Ron at Vengeance has done LOTS of combos with these heads and reported they are usually around 10rwhp off the 215's.

    Brian at TEA did bowl and valve work on my 220's and on their bench they flowed 322.9 on the intake at .600. I had them independently flowed when they came off for the 403 build and they broke 320. The car is coming back from the tuner next week and I will post back with some #'s

    Frost I don't doubt this is your experience but it just seems kind of odd to me....

    Also seems odd that a little bowl and valve work would pick up 35+cfm. I will try to remember to post up the flow sheet when I get home tonight.

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    No me too... that or my dyno is less internet friendly.

    I have had 3 as-cast sets in the last month alone and they ALL came in lower than expected.

    Last week I had an RX-7 swap. Forged 383 (about 10.55:1 SCR) with the Trickflow 515hp top end kit and a Fast 92 w/ M6. Looking for lost HP, I stripped all elbows and inlet piping all the way down to the TB. It was a MAF car but since I tune the VE too, we could do that and try it in SD. It just wouldn't make more than 426rwhp and about 388tq. I tried from 12.2 to 13.2 AFR and had timing optimized and that's just all it would make. The prior week had the same top-end kit on an LS1 F-body M6 and it made 408rwhp without the Fast that the 383 had. Man.... that 228r/stg 2.5 5.3l combo with an LS6 intake that EVERY THIRD F-BODY OWNER SEEMS TO HAVE makes 405-407 on average and is much cheaper.

    On the other hand, I have a car with a g5 x-4, ported fast 92, A4 4400 stall, the as-casts, boltons, STOCK 6.0L bottom end (heads milled for about 10.2-10.3:1 SCR), 3750lbs and it runs 10.70s-10.80 at 124.9-125.1.... Never dyno'd this. This guy races and hates dyno's, so I tuned it on the street.

    Just relating experience. I've seen all of the threads and guys saying that they did better for them, but that's what they did on this dyno

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    Yeah it is weird how different some cars respond to the same mods.... My old 346 had the dyno #'s and setup to run high 11's (417rwhp, SS3600, MT DR's) but never got better than 12.02 and usually ran 12.2's It trapped 113 a few times but was usually 111.

    When the PRC 5.3's came off and the the 220's went on it picked up 19/19 on the dyno and felt faster up top but never got a time on it because the rear was screaming and I didn't want to break it... That rear is gonna love the 403 haha....

    I lucked out too when the heads came off #7 had a broken ringland but there was not a scratch on the head...... weird thing is the car still ran fine and I had no idea......

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    These are my "touched up" 220's. Notice the mid-lift #'s are really strong...

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