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Third Gen Muscle ?

This is a discussion on Third Gen Muscle ? within the Internal Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Originally Posted by 1998 T/A here is a drive train list from thirdgen.org at the bottom you can see the ...

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by 1998 T/A View Post
    here is a drive train list from thirdgen.org at the bottom you can see the 5.7 being offered http://www.thirdgen.org/1986-chevy-camaro
    The 350 was a factory option in 1987 and later. 1986 350 cars DO NOT EXIST. Your car originally had a 305. So either you're mistaken about the 350 or someone swapped it in. You cannot use the 305 block for a 383 build. And if someone dropped in a 350, well, who knows what the hell it has in it...


    Sketchy finding info?! www.thirdgen.org

  2. #22
    Member Jay37's Avatar
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    OP ... It might even has a 400ci in it? Who knows what the hell someone did with it in the past 25 years?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay37 View Post
    OP ... It might even has a 400ci in it? Who knows what the hell someone did with it in the past 25 years?
    Probably not. That would be very obvious. 400 blocks have several external cues, whereas the 305 and 350 look identical.

  4. #24
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    These guys are correct, 87 was the first year for the optional 350 L98. I had an 88 Iroc L98 (loved that car).

    You can easily tell any factory L98 87 and up 3rd gen. Just look for the number "8" in the 8th digit of the vin. Easy to remember.

    As far as dual carbs, I ran a tunnel ram in the mid 80's on a (radical for the time) 355. Drove it on the street daily (it was my only ride at the time) and even took the car on long trips (Cinci to Gatlinburg).
    They can be made to be very streetable with good throttle response. You really have to know how to tune to get everything happy. This combo is what I cut my teeth on back then. But back then there weren't alot of good single carb intakes that made power.

    Nowadays, there are so many good single carb intakes that make it so easy to make good streetable power there really isn't a reason to go multiple on a street/strip car. Most that you see now anyway are low profile pretty looking dual setups that don't make power. Depends on what you want. When you say dual carbs, the only one I consider is a good ole tunnel ram with a pair of 660 center squirters.

    I'd keep it simple, single carb, good intake, and you'll be happier.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Z28_Driver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1998 T/A View Post
    ya I know exactly what I need in terms on internals just tossing around some combination on the cam and head sizes..I'm sending the engine to be rebuilt here in Sandusky by my mechanic but its all still in Toledo, I'll take a look then and let ya'll know
    Take a look at Ridge Machine in Maumee (Just south of Toledo) before you have the rebuild done. They do great machining and engine work. One of the best in the area.

  6. #26
    Member Jay37's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc 85Z28 View Post
    Probably not. That would be very obvious. 400 blocks have several external cues, whereas the 305 and 350 look identical.
    #509 blocks have only 2 frost plugs... like the other sbc's, so the ONLY thing you would have to go off is the notch of the balancer. I am consitantly suprised at the people who have a different engine in there car than they thought! I recently tuned a "350" and sure shit... he brought it in, and it turned out to be a 400, being the honest joe I am I told the guy, and then tried to buy it off him.

    I know it's a little off topic, but it is all to common that shops try to tell some one the engine is different so they can buy it for cheaper, so BEWARE, and do your research.
    RUDE, CRUDE, AND SOCIABLY UNACCEPTABLE.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay37 View Post
    #509 blocks have only 2 frost plugs... like the other sbc's, so the ONLY thing you would have to go off is the notch of the balancer.
    Close. Early 4 bolt 400s had 3 plugs, while later 2 bolt had only 2. ALL blocks were cast with 3 provisions, even though only 2 may be drilled. The 400 block is also the only SBC without a smooth side, they have bulges.

  8. #28
    Member Jay37's Avatar
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    I was just trying to say maybe its possible it's a 400. and put out SOLID INFORMATION

    Lets say some one looks for the "notch" doesnt see it (maybe it stopped on the bottom side, or whatever) then looks for the three freeze plugs doesn't see them.
    Its possible its-casting number 3951509, THE "509" BLOCK HAS IDENTICAL FREEZE PLUG CONFIGERATION AS ANY OTHER. I'm not debating this boss. I agree 400's have the third freeze plug cast or there but not the 509. Back in the day, these blocks were the ultimate sleeper block, because most people, don't know about them. I have one on my engine stand right now, just because of pure love, not that I want to biuld it, I just like it! They have the best nickel content of any 400 and are a 2 bolt main block which is the strongest.... kind of ironic the sleeper or cheater block is the best.

    They also have a 509 stamped on the side of the block, but if the person doesn't know about the block, that won't give you away.
    an 817 is 73-80 2 bolt 3 provisions and only 2 actual freeze plugs
    an 511 is 70-73 4 bolt 3 freeze plug block
    an 509 is the one alot of people miss.

    Hope that helps
    Last edited by Jay37; 12-26-2010 at 09:14 PM.

  9. #29
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc 85Z28 View Post
    Close. Early 4 bolt 400s had 3 plugs, while later 2 bolt had only 2. ALL blocks were cast with 3 provisions, even though only 2 may be drilled. The 400 block is also the only SBC without a smooth side, they have bulges.
    That is correct. The last 400 I have is in fact a 70 model, 4 bolt main with 3 freeze plugs per side. The balancers however are a dead give away and the easiest to spot.

  10. #30
    Member Jay37's Avatar
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    I always seem to be swimming up current here!

    http://books.google.com/books?id=nbu...page&q&f=false

    Look at page 16 for the 509, then page 18 has the ones you all are talking about!

  11. #31
    Member Jay37's Avatar
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    I firmly believe there are small block guys and there are 400 guys. 400s have been cursed their whole life with and I quote the late John Lingenfelter "all the overheating, durability and other so-called problems with the sbc 400 are, wives tales generated from the engines being assembled improperly". I am saying all this in case some one is thinking of biulding one. If you are you need to now all the differences in a 400, compared to the rest of its family.

  12. #32
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    They are just as John says,,,,wives tales.

    I've built several 400's over the years and have never had any durability or overheating issues. I don't mean to say I'm a 400 guy,,,,I like all the small blocks. Actually you could say I'm more of a 302/327/350 guy.

    I do however like the 4.125 inch bore the 400's offer. A tad easier to make power with.

  13. #33
    Member Jay37's Avatar
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    I smile just thinking about the classic "cheater block"

    OP can we get some casting numbers?

  14. #34
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Not really a cheater block out there. The freeze plugs are too difficult to see when installed in the car unless you go crawling around someone else's ride on a cruise night, not sure that would go over well

    The balancer is a dead giveaway, and very easily identifiable in just about any vehicle. Can't hide it. Nothing sneaky about that.

    Give me a few minutes and I'll show a picture of mine installed in the car. No way I can tell anyone it's a 350 if you know what you are looking at.

  15. #35
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Here ya go, maybe this will help. Regardless of which 400 block you use, they will all have this distinctive balancer on it.

    In this first pic, you can see the timing mark I have highlighted. Notice how the rear portion of the balancer is cut out, and the timing mark doesn't go all the way accross. They are also 8 inch diameter for the 400's.
    All your 350/327/307/283/265 balancers come in various sizes, but they will all be a solid piece without these cutouts.



    In this second pic, I rotated the motor slightly, and you can see how the cutout starts.



    This is just a quick way to know what you are looking at. This is a new GM balancer still available through GM.
    This isn't taking into account the many aftermarket balancers on the market with a completely different design where as these markings are not easily identifiable. In which case it's anybodies guess.

  16. #36
    Member Jay37's Avatar
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    Alright, alright.

    I agree on the balancer, Never doubted that. But you can run a tci rattler on a street car, with a 509 and most guys will by off on it being 327 or what ever storie you can come up with.

    Also in a dirtracing car you can run a 377, so a 350 crank and balancer in a 509 block and nobody is the wiser.

    Guys use to do that stuff back in the day when a few inches made all the difference.
    He he he

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Not really a cheater block out there. The freeze plugs are too difficult to see when installed in the car unless you go crawling around someone else's ride on a cruise night, not sure that would go over well

    The balancer is a dead giveaway, and very easily identifiable in just about any vehicle. Can't hide it. Nothing sneaky about that.

    Give me a few minutes and I'll show a picture of mine installed in the car. No way I can tell anyone it's a 350 if you know what you are looking at.
    I personally didn't nick name it the cheater block.
    So a "CHEATER BLOCK" I assume it came from stock car racing were 355 or bigger is not allowed. So the tech inspectors crawl all over and look for the freeze plugs and balancer, if you have an internally balanced 377 with a 509 block you would make it through the tech inspection.
    Does that make sense?
    Last edited by Jay37; 12-27-2010 at 03:40 PM.

  18. #38
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    For the record, all 377's would be internally balanced anyway, since they use a 350 crank and balancer in a 400 block.

    I don't know where the cheater name came from, and didn't mean to imply it was something you started.
    But It just doesn't fly with me if you know what you are looking at.

    For instance, even if someone ran a fluidamper balancer on the engine to try and hide the external balance clues, it would still raise a red flag with me. Seeing as how someone spent $300 on a high end balancer, it's no longer a sleeper in my book and there could be just about anything inside that block, even a 434 with 350 decals on it. See what I mean??

    Once you deviate from the stock appearance, it's no longer a sleeper or cheater, and the aftermarket balancer is a dead giveaway.

  19. #39
    Member Jay37's Avatar
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    For the record I was just trying to state that a 377 would be internally balanced, maybe some one other than us was able to learn something.
    Yeah the fluidamber might not get you, but hell I'm not trying to get you. I would make up some bull shit, like "a guy owed me some money and gave me this balancer so I ran it, then I would continue to act like I have no idea what the dumble hump heads on the engine are... all so the guys thinks I'm a tool, then BAM baby unleash the 406 and let the hell hounds out I just made some cash!... that is all stuff that wouldn't be effective any more due to lack of power compared to new technology.

    It has been done. the cheater block earned it's nickname. I have melted alot of lead and crashed alot of cars in my day. But the cheater block is something I will not forget!
    Last edited by Jay37; 12-27-2010 at 04:26 PM.

  20. #40
    Member Jay37's Avatar
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    So mr. jones, other than casting numbers how could one spot a 377? thats a 509 377 of course

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