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Something I Don't Understand

This is a discussion on Something I Don't Understand within the Internal Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; imho it seems though when they take those 4 bangers pushin' that much power stock they turn into smokers when ...

  1. #41
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    imho it seems though when they take those 4 bangers pushin' that much power stock they turn into smokers when they get beat on.. Least that's how it seems to me.. Not being a lawnmower expert..
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    No replacement for displacement will always be true. If a 3.6 can make 306 hp how much do you think a 6.0L with that technology can make?

    The LT5 was and is a badass motor. They are heavier and expensive but prices would have dropped if they continued on in more models like the fbody.
    It was finally matched by the c5 z06 yes but lets not kid ourselves on the power potential of each motor.

    There is an LT5 out there with tons of cash in it yes but it puts out over 880 hp from 350 cubic inches. Think of that for a second.Naturally aspirated. yes i repeat NA.

    There are many guys on the vette forum as well with 415 ci LT5s that IDLE LIKE STOCK or a Mild cam, and make 650 NA rwhp singing to 7500 rpm.

    I dont mean to diss the ls. Its a sick motor and I love it but the LT5 is just badass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5abivt View Post
    No replacement for displacement will always be true. If a 3.6 can make 306 hp how much do you think a 6.0L with that technology can make?

    The LT5 was and is a badass motor. They are heavier and expensive but prices would have dropped if they continued on in more models like the fbody.
    It was finally matched by the c5 z06 yes but lets not kid ourselves on the power potential of each motor.

    There is an LT5 out there with tons of cash in it yes but it puts out over 880 hp from 350 cubic inches. Think of that for a second.Naturally aspirated. yes i repeat NA.

    There are many guys on the vette forum as well with 415 ci LT5s that IDLE LIKE STOCK or a Mild cam, and make 650 NA rwhp singing to 7500 rpm.

    I dont mean to diss the ls. Its a sick motor and I love it but the LT5 is just badass.
    agree 100%

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5abivt View Post
    No replacement for displacement will always be true. If a 3.6 can make 306 hp how much do you think a 6.0L with that technology can make?

    The LT5 was and is a badass motor. They are heavier and expensive but prices would have dropped if they continued on in more models like the fbody.
    It was finally matched by the c5 z06 yes but lets not kid ourselves on the power potential of each motor.

    There is an LT5 out there with tons of cash in it yes but it puts out over 880 hp from 350 cubic inches. Think of that for a second.Naturally aspirated. yes i repeat NA.

    There are many guys on the vette forum as well with 415 ci LT5s that IDLE LIKE STOCK or a Mild cam, and make 650 NA rwhp singing to 7500 rpm.

    I dont mean to diss the ls. Its a sick motor and I love it but the LT5 is just badass.
    while i agree about the power potential i dont agree about the price going down. gm tried the v8 dohc with the northstar engines..and besides being a pain to work on..they were ridiculously expensive to service and make. the lt5 was a no holds bar engine with a good amount of outsourcing ..no way could it be economically feasible to mass produce them for everyday production vehicles

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    Quote Originally Posted by shady milkman View Post
    while i agree about the power potential i dont agree about the price going down. gm tried the v8 dohc with the northstar engines..and besides being a pain to work on..they were ridiculously expensive to service and make. the lt5 was a no holds bar engine with a good amount of outsourcing ..no way could it be economically feasible to mass produce them for everyday production vehicles
    Guess they just have too many cylinders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smittro View Post
    Guess they just have too many cylinders
    the lt5 ...yes ..doesnt matter how many cylinders ..name a dohc from gm that is a all out high performance engine besides the lt5

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    Quote Originally Posted by shady milkman View Post
    the lt5 ...yes ..doesnt matter how many cylinders ..name a dohc from gm that is a all out high performance engine besides the lt5
    The original proto to: 91-93 TDC All in house Chevrolet too.. Check it out..
    Last edited by Smittro; 08-03-2010 at 09:25 AM.

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    Engine of the Z34
    The Twin Dual Cam V-6 is the most respectable upgrade in the Z34. GM's engineers used the same block as the 2.8-3.1 60 degree V-6 for this four cam achievement. They did this to get the performance of Japanese four cam engines while keeping prices reasonable. The TDC engine incorporates racing engine technology with its valve configuration to attain a 7000 rpm redline. Aluminum heads in a pent-roof design and valve clearance notches in the pistons also uphold the high-rever's capacity. To keep manufacturing new parts to a minimum, the TDC shares the same bore (84 mm) as the 3.1-3.4's but contrary to popular belief it does not share the same stroke with the Chevy 2.8l, the 2.8 has a 2.99" stroke whereas the other 60 degree v6's (3.1's & 3.4's) have a stroke of 3.31". The connecting rods and crankshaft are shared although the metallurgy has been altered to handle the additional horsepower of the 3.4L engine. Cylinder walls were thickened and bearings were reinforced and polished to handle the increased load. Improvements have also been made in the cooling system, ignition, and oiling system to accommodate more moving parts. For example, the Z34 has oil reserves in the valve train to reduce wear at start up, an oil to water cooler, and a windage trey to avoid foaming. This simplistic and reliable design puts out 210 hp (157 kW) at 5,200 rpm, an impressive 215 ftlbf (292 Nm) of torque at 4,400 rpm, and a compression ratio of 9.25:1 (9.50:1 when equipped with a manual transmission). Upwards of 7,200 rpm the fuel delivery is cut off and the valves float to avoid engine damage.
    Last edited by Smittro; 08-03-2010 at 09:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smittro View Post
    The original 91-93 TDC All in house Chevrolet too.. Check it out..
    Quote Originally Posted by Smittro View Post
    Engine of the Z34
    The Twin Dual Cam V-6 is the most respectable upgrade in the Z34. GM's engineers used the same block as the 2.8-3.1 60 degree V-6 for this four cam achievement. They did this to get the performance of Japanese four cam engines while keeping prices reasonable. The TDC engine incorporates racing engine technology with its valve configuration to attain a 7000 rpm redline. Aluminum heads in a pent-roof design and valve clearance notches in the pistons also uphold the high-rever's capacity. To keep manufacturing new parts to a minimum, the TDC shares the same bore (84 mm) as the 3.1-3.4's but contrary to popular belief it does not share the same stroke with the Chevy 2.8l, the 2.8 has a 2.99" stroke whereas the other 60 degree v6's (3.1's & 3.4's) have a stroke of 3.31". The connecting rods and crankshaft are shared although the metallurgy has been altered to handle the additional horsepower of the 3.4L engine. Cylinder walls were thickened and bearings were reinforced and polished to handle the increased load. Improvements have also been made in the cooling system, ignition, and oiling system to accommodate more moving parts. For example, the Z34 has oil reserves in the valve train to reduce wear at start up, an oil to water cooler, and a windage trey to avoid foaming. This simplistic and reliable design puts out 210 hp (157 kW) at 5,200 rpm, an impressive 215 ftlbf (292 Nm) of torque at 4,400 rpm, and a compression ratio of 9.25:1 (9.50:1 when equipped with a manual transmission). Upwards of 7,200 rpm the fuel delivery is cut off and the valves float to avoid engine damage.
    What screwed the engine being so much more was good old GM not building good trany's for the engine, and then later not offering the good trany's that came out in other cars.. And toooo many cry babies about it's maintainance level and having to shift a manual.. Imho this is what really holds car companies back.. The lazyness of the owners... Most people don't want to deal with the higher level of maintainance of 4-cam engines.. Hell many don't like working on cars period. Unfortunatley these are the same folks whom usually get face/featured in auto reviews..

    Imho many engines start out as all out performance engines.. But get hit with beurocracies(sp) and red tape killing them on the engineers bench..
    Last edited by Smittro; 08-03-2010 at 09:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smittro View Post
    The original proto to: 91-93 TDC All in house Chevrolet too.. Check it out..
    Quote Originally Posted by Smittro View Post
    Engine of the Z34
    The Twin Dual Cam V-6 is the most respectable upgrade in the Z34. GM's engineers used the same block as the 2.8-3.1 60 degree V-6 for this four cam achievement. They did this to get the performance of Japanese four cam engines while keeping prices reasonable. The TDC engine incorporates racing engine technology with its valve configuration to attain a 7000 rpm redline. Aluminum heads in a pent-roof design and valve clearance notches in the pistons also uphold the high-rever's capacity. To keep manufacturing new parts to a minimum, the TDC shares the same bore (84 mm) as the 3.1-3.4's but contrary to popular belief it does not share the same stroke with the Chevy 2.8l, the 2.8 has a 2.99" stroke whereas the other 60 degree v6's (3.1's & 3.4's) have a stroke of 3.31". The connecting rods and crankshaft are shared although the metallurgy has been altered to handle the additional horsepower of the 3.4L engine. Cylinder walls were thickened and bearings were reinforced and polished to handle the increased load. Improvements have also been made in the cooling system, ignition, and oiling system to accommodate more moving parts. For example, the Z34 has oil reserves in the valve train to reduce wear at start up, an oil to water cooler, and a windage trey to avoid foaming. This simplistic and reliable design puts out 210 hp (157 kW) at 5,200 rpm, an impressive 215 ftlbf (292 Nm) of torque at 4,400 rpm, and a compression ratio of 9.25:1 (9.50:1 when equipped with a manual transmission). Upwards of 7,200 rpm the fuel delivery is cut off and the valves float to avoid engine damage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smittro View Post
    What screwed the engine being so much more was good old GM not building good trany's for the engine, and then later not offering the good trany's that came out in other cars.. And toooo many cry babies about it's maintainance level and having to shift a manual.. Imho this is what really holds car companies back.. The lazyness of the owners... Most people don't want to deal with the higher level of maintainance of 4-cam engines.. Hell many don't like working on cars period. Unfortunatley these are the same folks whom usually get face/featured in auto reviews..

    Imho many engines start out as all out performance engines.. But get hit with beurocracies(sp) and red tape killing them on the engineers bench..
    so still ...because of economical reasons ..there is only the lt5 in terms of high-po dohc from gm in a higher production terms. mind you how expensive the c4 zr1 was for its time. I dont have a beef with dohc engines..they have great potential..but hi-po dohc N/A are way more expensive for the gain than needed.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5abivt View Post
    There is an LT5 out there with tons of cash in it yes but it puts out over 880 hp from 350 cubic inches. Think of that for a second.Naturally aspirated. yes i repeat NA.
    Eh, not that impressive. Nascar has been doing that with 358 ci pushrod motors for years, and they do it while keeping within certain rules and regulations, still using flat tappet camshafts even

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Eh, not that impressive. Nascar has been doing that with 358 ci pushrod motors for years, and they do it while keeping within certain rules and regulations, still using flat tappet camshafts even
    I agree with this as well.. I even believe they run solids too..

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    Quote Originally Posted by shady milkman View Post
    so still ...because of economical reasons ..there is only the lt5 in terms of high-po dohc from gm in a higher production terms. mind you how expensive the c4 zr1 was for its time. I dont have a beef with dohc engines..they have great potential..but hi-po dohc N/A are way more expensive for the gain than needed.
    Yeah you're prolly right.. But imho they should'nt be.. The tech on dohc engines is very old.. Broken down to bare mechanics they're pretty simplistic really...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smittro View Post
    I agree with this as well.. I even believe they run solids too..
    Yes they run solid flat tappets. They are also bound by rules that limit intake and head design, as well as carb size. So there is alot holding these engines back.
    Even still, I believe the cup engines make well over 800 HP now. Even the truck/grand national engines make 750+ HP and they run a smaller carb among other things.
    If anyone wants to see potential in an old 2 valve pushrod engine, these Nascar guys have a pretty good handle on it. Now if they would just let some of those secrets out

    I do agree with what you've said here Smittro, and I enjoy seeing what can be done with small engines and dual cams etc...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smittro View Post
    Yeah you're prolly right.. But imho they should'nt be.. The tech on dohc engines is very old.. Broken down to bare mechanics they're pretty simplistic really...
    Ya that tech goes back a ways. Anyone remember the ford SOHC 427's??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Yes they run solid flat tappets. They are also bound by rules that limit intake and head design, as well as carb size. So there is alot holding these engines back.
    Even still, I believe the cup engines make well over 800 HP now. Even the truck/grand national engines make 750+ HP and they run a smaller carb among other things.
    If anyone wants to see potential in an old 2 valve pushrod engine, these Nascar guys have a pretty good handle on it. Now if they would just let some of those secrets out

    I do agree with what you've said here Smittro, and I enjoy seeing what can be done with small engines and dual cams etc...
    Old SBC fan here.. I had a buddy when I was a kid, dropped some goodies into a 350 4-bolt cam,carb,headers, shift kit, bla,bla.. Helped him drop it into an 86 single cab s-10.. I don't know what kind of numbers it put down.. But I can tell you it felt and was dangerous to drive @ times.. If you stomped it @ 60 mph you better be sure....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smittro View Post
    Old SBC fan here.. I had a buddy when I was a kid, dropped some goodies into a 350 4-bolt cam,carb,headers, shift kit, bla,bla.. Helped him drop it into an 86 single cab s-10.. I don't know what kind of numbers it put down.. But I can tell you it felt and was dangerous to drive @ times.. If you stomped it @ 60 mph you better be sure....
    I cut my teeth on sbc's 30 years ago. I just love the smaller cubed sbc's that spin to the moon, 4.88 gears rowin' a 4 speed. I still have 2 cars in the garage like that
    Over the years I've grown to also appreciate large cubed motors too though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Ya that tech goes back a ways. Anyone remember the ford SOHC 427's??
    even fuel injection goes way back.. Like 1930's way back..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    I cut my teeth on sbc's 30 years ago. I just love the smaller cubed sbc's that spin to the moon, 4.88 gears rowin' a 4 speed. I still have 2 cars in the garage like that
    Over the many many many years I've grown to also appreciate large cubed motors too though.
    corrected

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smittro View Post
    Yeah you're prolly right.. But imho they should'nt be.. The tech on dohc engines is very old.. Broken down to bare mechanics they're pretty simplistic really...
    true..but i tell you what tho..i love how damn simple the csbs and the gen III+s are to work on..it is amazingly simple

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