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Something I Don't Understand

This is a discussion on Something I Don't Understand within the Internal Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Originally Posted by PFM I believe there just wasn't anymore room available under the hood. They had already cramed half ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PFM View Post
    I believe there just wasn't anymore room available under the hood. They had already cramed half the motor under the dash already anyway and descided to spare all the poor peoples Knuckels from cuts and scrapes. Can you imagine trying to change spark plugs on a LS1 with big fat heads on it. Scarry!
    not quite...for the f-body this might have been the case. but that means nothing in terms of new engine development

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexg69 View Post
    Why hasnt Chevy gone from a OHV config. to a DOHC config. Wouldnt having more valves per cylinder make for a better breathing engine and increasing power?
    lt5

    northstar v8s


    both are examples of 4 valve ohc set ups

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    Quote Originally Posted by PFM View Post
    I believe there just wasn't anymore room available under the hood. They had already cramed half the motor under the dash already anyway and descided to spare all the poor peoples Knuckels from cuts and scrapes. Can you imagine trying to change spark plugs on a LS1 with big fat heads on it. Scarry!
    I agree, that may have had something to do with it. For example the possible reason they went with 3.4L ohv and the lower deck 2v 3800-II in base models.. Fitting a 660 high feature would be interesting to say the least.. Imho,, the 24v LQ1 would have been a far better choice than the 160hp 3.4l ohv.. Final production years saw the lq1 in the 215-220hp range which is more than the l36 3800 f-body engine.. 60*v6 are night and day better balanced compaired to the 90* 3800. But the lq1 is/was way too tall to fit under the cowl of a 4th gen. Not to mention the maintainance level is higher for the lq1 too.. I also think an early base 32v north star in a base Camaro/Bird would have been neat imho..
    Last edited by Smittro; 07-21-2010 at 06:42 PM.

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    I read in Hot Rod a few months back that GM has a patent on a new 3 valve head for the LSx motors and that they have been working on a DOHC motor as well.

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    GM is already there in Northstar v8's, and the new 3.6 (high feature 660) dohc, with variable valve timimg, DI injection and an 11.3:1 CR.. 304hp.. Rumor has it next years model v6's will be over the 312hp mark.. Imho, DI injection is also going to be found in more v8's with less displacement.. Also in my oppy the old saying "no replacement for displacement" is rapidly becomming a thing of the past and on pump gas.. The 3.6l does it on 87 octane..
    Last edited by Smittro; 07-22-2010 at 03:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 97bluebird View Post
    I read in Hot Rod a few months back that GM has a patent on a new 3 valve head for the LSx motors and that they have been working on a DOHC motor as well.
    A 4v-4cam lsx would be pure imho.. The sound alone would be worth owning one..

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    Quote Originally Posted by 97bluebird View Post
    I read in Hot Rod a few months back that GM has a patent on a new 3 valve head for the LSx motors and that they have been working on a DOHC motor as well.
    yup but the project was scrapped in 2008. oddly enough the code names were lt-5, lt-6, lt-7

    the lt-5 was designed to replace the ls3 and offered 500/500 and was a 6.2 liter

    the lt-6 was to replace the ls7 and was a 6.2 liter offering 600/550

    the lt-7 was to replace the ls9 and was a s/c 6.2 offering 700/700


    ^ it has become standard for gm now to use the same blocks for multiple engines. the ls9/ls3/lsa/(l99s maybe) all share the same block

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    noone ever thinks about a cam in block multi valve setup. Similar to a sohc 4v honda motrcycle setup, two valves are run off of a split fork rocker. This setup is used on 4v sbc and ls1 heads

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheeliE-maxx View Post
    noone ever thinks about a cam in block multi valve setup. Similar to a sohc 4v honda motrcycle setup, two valves are run off of a split fork rocker. This setup is used on 4v sbc and ls1 heads
    Interesting, are those gear or chain driven? Years ago there was a mod magazine that ran an article on a multi valve setup for SBC's that ran off a single cam, and one set of pushrods operated 2 valves. Which pushed on one rocker which in turn was connected to the other rocker with a small adjustable "mini" pushrod if you will.. Crazy, but neat setup imho.. Simplistic as well.. No need to set timing on 2or4 cams. Just set the timing up like you would any other roller SBC..
    Last edited by Smittro; 07-25-2010 at 06:36 AM.

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    GM already has Direct Injected 6.2 R&D engines running around doing certifcation testing.
    A DI equipped LS3 would likely gain 25-30 HP over the current setup.

    BTW the 2 C4 Corvettes tested by Exec's back in the early `90's. One was LT5 powered the other was an LT1 (not LS1).
    GM's V8 cylinder head development has been phenomenal even in the short time frame of the Gen III/IV (13yrs) Think back to the original LS1/LS6 head with it's 200/210cc intake ports and now the production 6.2's 250cc intake port.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9T8W66 View Post
    GM already has Direct Injected 6.2 R&D engines running around doing certifcation testing.
    A DI equipped LS3 would likely gain 25-30 HP over the current setup.

    BTW the 2 C4 Corvettes tested by Exec's back in the early `90's. One was LT5 powered the other was an LT1 (not LS1).
    GM's V8 cylinder head development has been phenomenal even in the short time frame of the Gen III/IV (13yrs) Think back to the original LS1/LS6 head with it's 200/210cc intake ports and now the production 6.2's 250cc intake port.
    Not knowing the 6.2's @ all. I'd still wager more of a gain with DI than that is highly possible in production engines.. For example the N/A 60* DOHC-DI v6 in the 2010 Camaro is just over 11:1 CR and roughly 90 crank HP over the 3.4 DOHC LQ1 v6. Amaging (to me anyways) that an engine with only a slight displacement difference and a .2 liter gain could crank out 304hp on only 6 jugs and being N/A.. A 6 liter DI dohc v8 over 11:1 factory CR would be mind blowing imho..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smittro View Post
    Not knowing the 6.2's @ all. I'd still wager more of a gain with DI than that is highly possible in production engines.. For example the N/A 60* DOHC-DI v6 in the 2010 Camaro is just over 11:1 CR and roughly 90 crank HP over the 3.4 DOHC LQ1 v6. Amaging (to me anyways) that an engine with only a slight displacement difference and a .2 liter gain could crank out 304hp on only 6 jugs and being N/A.. A 6 liter DI dohc v8 over 11:1 factory CR would be mind blowing imho..
    I agree. My statement was based off the DI being the only change to the engine, Compression, Cam, Airflow all being the same.
    The potential for the DI 6.2 may be close to if not surpass the 7.0 LS7's 505 HP. That's a 70+ HP jump and it would still be a pushrod engine.
    Last edited by 9T8W66; 07-25-2010 at 08:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9T8W66 View Post
    GM already has Direct Injected 6.2 R&D engines running around doing certifcation testing.
    A DI equipped LS3 would likely gain 25-30 HP over the current setup.

    BTW the 2 C4 Corvettes tested by Exec's back in the early `90's. One was LT5 powered the other was an LT1 (not LS1).
    GM's V8 cylinder head development has been phenomenal even in the short time frame of the Gen III/IV (13yrs) Think back to the original LS1/LS6 head with it's 200/210cc intake ports and now the production 6.2's 250cc intake port.
    my bad...it was done to pick what the next gen motor (genIII) was going to run....i should have known the ls1 wouldnt have been in it yet..it wasnt even in prototype yet

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    Look at it this way. When the LS1 came out it almost got crusified for changing the original SBC in the beginning, especialy by the aftermarket crowd. Could oyu imagine if GM completly killed off OHV with DOHC like ford Mustangs? I already hate GM for killing ponitac, I think changing an industry standard would cause a boycott and eventual disaster for an already economicly strugglying Company. THe LS1 was a great gamble and a highly lucrative one. I do agree that there are benefits to having DOHC but im not sure id like to be the guy to tell the owner of his brand new mustang (had this happen too) that his motor is toast cause his belts and chains broke slipped or broke and now he was a 500lb paperweight in his engine compartment. Great buisness by the way, silly interference motors. not all but most do this. Lose a belt lose your ride


    and im not hating on mustangs. The new Ford 5.0 is actually badass. Im mostly referring to the imports taht come in and never have their timeing belts checked.... ever. Or you tell them its starting to frew and they might want a new one and they say its fine and 3 weeks later they want you to rebuild a motor that ate every valve, piston, plug, and whatever else that got in the way once the cams and crank stopped talking to each other
    Last edited by JoshuaGrooms83; 07-26-2010 at 01:30 PM. Reason: clarification

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaGrooms83 View Post
    Look at it this way. When the LS1 came out it almost got crusified for changing the original SBC in the beginning, especialy by the aftermarket crowd. Could oyu imagine if GM completly killed off OHV with DOHC like ford Mustangs? I already hate GM for killing ponitac, I think changing an industry standard would cause a boycott and eventual disaster for an already economicly strugglying Company. THe LS1 was a great gamble and a highly lucrative one. I do agree that there are benefits to having DOHC but im not sure id like to be the guy to tell the owner of his brand new mustang (had this happen too) that his motor is toast cause his belts and chains broke slipped or broke and now he was a 500lb paperweight in his engine compartment. Great buisness by the way, silly interference motors. not all but most do this. Lose a belt lose your ride
    Would be a shame to change a platform that has just started, it's still pretty young.

    What's worse is GM is already talking about changing the camaro platform to something different. I feel sorry for all those 5th gen camaro owners out there now. First year out and GM wants to change the platform?? Not that I liked it anyway, but you know how things go when that happens.
    Before long, parts are discontinued for a platform that no longer exists. I'd expect platforms to change after 5-10 years,,,but after the first year?? It won't leave many parts cars out there to source parts from, and will probably turn out to be a bastard car with nothing else interchanging.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaGrooms83 View Post
    Look at it this way. When the LS1 came out it almost got crusified for changing the original SBC in the beginning, especialy by the aftermarket crowd. Could oyu imagine if GM completly killed off OHV with DOHC like ford Mustangs? I already hate GM for killing ponitac, I think changing an industry standard would cause a boycott and eventual disaster for an already economicly strugglying Company. THe LS1 was a great gamble and a highly lucrative one. I do agree that there are benefits to having DOHC but im not sure id like to be the guy to tell the owner of his brand new mustang (had this happen too) that his motor is toast cause his belts and chains broke slipped or broke and now he was a 500lb paperweight in his engine compartment. Great buisness by the way, silly interference motors. not all but most do this. Lose a belt lose your ride
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Would be a shame to change a platform that has just started, it's still pretty young.

    What's worse is GM is already talking about changing the camaro platform to something different. I feel sorry for all those 5th gen camaro owners out there now. First year out and GM wants to change the platform?? Not that I liked it anyway, but you know how things go when that happens.
    Before long, parts are discontinued for a platform that no longer exists. I'd expect platforms to change after 5-10 years,,,but after the first year?? It won't leave many parts cars out there to source parts from, and will probably turn out to be a bastard car with nothing else interchanging.
    actually the Gen V v8s will offer both ohv and what is looking like a dual cam in block configuration.

    all gen Vs will offer DI supposedly. but dont worry the vette and maro are still going to be good ol pushrod.

    the gen 6 camaro will not be out for another 2+ years with talk on the 2013-14 model year ...so really 4 years isnt bad...

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaGrooms83 View Post
    Look at it this way. When the LS1 came out it almost got crusified for changing the original SBC in the beginning, especialy by the aftermarket crowd. Could oyu imagine if GM completly killed off OHV with DOHC like ford Mustangs? I already hate GM for killing ponitac, I think changing an industry standard would cause a boycott and eventual disaster for an already economicly strugglying Company. THe LS1 was a great gamble and a highly lucrative one. I do agree that there are benefits to having DOHC but im not sure id like to be the guy to tell the owner of his brand new mustang (had this happen too) that his motor is toast cause his belts and chains broke slipped or broke and now he was a 500lb paperweight in his engine compartment. Great buisness by the way, silly interference motors. not all but most do this. Lose a belt lose your ride


    and im not hating on mustangs. The new Ford 5.0 is actually badass. Im mostly referring to the imports taht come in and never have their timeing belts checked.... ever. Or you tell them its starting to frew and they might want a new one and they say its fine and 3 weeks later they want you to rebuild a motor that ate every valve, piston, plug, and whatever else that got in the way once the cams and crank stopped talking to each other
    Also a known LQ1 issue.. People baught w-body cars powered by a 4-cam motor with a valve clearance near .001 and did'nt think "that belt thingy" would ever go bad.. GM says replace it every 60k, I says every 20-30k and the motor will last quite long. Problem is finding someone whom CAN or WILL work on one.. Most mechanics go when you say LQ1.. They tend to hate the motor for whatever reason (most likely hard to work on/around). No splines on the cam timing pullies means the average joe can't change/set the timing without special tools.. Hell changing the spark plugs is far beyond LS1 in difficulty, and nearly $200.00 for a set of factory wires alone.. There are cheaper sets of coures but you get what you pay for there. Top it all off with an ALT. you can't change without pulling the passenger axle = bad rep.. But if we turn the page we see Fiero guys opting for the LQ1/LS1 swap over the 3800 swap time and time again..
    Last edited by Smittro; 07-27-2010 at 05:21 AM.

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    Direct injection (Di) is the wave of the future in gasoline engines,especially with the ever higher CAFE standards.the 2011 Sonata we build at HMMA has 200hp from a 2.4L Di 4 cyl,the turbo 2.0L Di 4 cyl Sonata has 275 hp and 34 mpg both hp and mpg are best in class vs v6 engines and it runs on regular unleaded.
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    Wow, I can't stand the excitement

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Wow, I can't stand the excitement
    i cant wait because that means the gen IVs will go down in price in terms of crate motors

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