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roller Rockers on a stock LS1

This is a discussion on roller Rockers on a stock LS1 within the Internal Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Originally Posted by 9t8z28 No, wipe would be movement from exhaust side to intake side Can you elaborate for me? ...

  1. #21
    Slow'er'Ass Mr. Luos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9t8z28 View Post
    No, wipe would be movement from exhaust side to intake side
    Can you elaborate for me?
    The exhaust side is its own side. Same as intake.


    Are you talking about the valve itself when open?
    Okay...I just got very confused.

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    Senior Member mrr23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin93 View Post
    Any gains from these or driveability issues on a stock motor with just a K&N FIPK and magaflow cat back? Im thinking the 1.7 ratio as I believe stock is 1.6 correct me if im wrong? Thanks for the help.
    stock is 1.7. i put the crane 1.8 rocker kit on the wife's car. picked up 17 rwhp with the stock tune. the mods were lid, k/n filter, ported MAF, bassani headers w/catted y-pipe and borla exhaust.

    here's the dyno
    dyno 9 = baseline
    dyno 11 = 500 miles
    dyno 14 = 10 months later


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    Senior Member mrr23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Luos View Post
    Can you elaborate for me?
    The exhaust side is its own side. Same as intake.


    Are you talking about the valve itself when open?
    Okay...I just got very confused.
    as the rocker moves to open and close the valve, it slides across the valvetip from top (intake side of head) to bottom (exhaust side of head).

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    Slow'er'Ass Mr. Luos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrr23 View Post
    as the rocker moves to open and close the valve, it slides across the valvetip from top (intake side of head) to bottom (exhaust side of head).
    Okay...so my original statement is true then?
    By wipe...you mean side to side movement on the valve tip correct?
    I just didn't have the direction involved.
    And again, my stock arms stay centered with a .630" cam. Something I keep an eye on.
    Granted, can't really measure them when it is running.

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    2004 HEAD/CAM CTS-V 9t8z28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrr23 View Post
    stock is 1.7. i put the crane 1.8 rocker kit on the wife's car. picked up 17 rwhp with the stock tune. the mods were lid, k/n filter, ported MAF, bassani headers w/catted y-pipe and borla exhaust.

    here's the dyno
    dyno 9 = baseline
    dyno 11 = 500 miles
    dyno 14 = 10 months later

    Click for full size
    Aren't these the Vinci rockers and correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you state, (in another thread) that these actually creat more lift as apposed to a standard increased ratio rocker?

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    Senior Member mrr23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Luos View Post
    Okay...so my original statement is true then?


    I just didn't have the direction involved.
    And again, my stock arms stay centered with a .630" cam. Something I keep an eye on.
    Granted, can't really measure them when it is running.
    have you ever measured the wipe? what you do is take a marking dye and put it on the valve tip. install the rocker. rotate the motor one full revolution. remove the rocker and look to see what got 'wiped' off. if the wipe pattern is centered on the valve, good. if it's more towards the intake side of the valve tip, then raising the rocker to push the tip back is in order. if it's on the exhaust side of the tip, then lowering the rocker is in order.

    things that change the wipe pattern from stock is milling heads, doing a valve job where cutting the seats and valve will sink the valve deeper into the seat, thus raising the valve tip.

    now, with stock rockers, when you lift/lower the rocker, you must change the pushrod length the same amount to keep correct lifter preload.
    Last edited by mrr23; 07-14-2008 at 06:51 PM.

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    Senior Member mrr23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9t8z28 View Post
    Aren't these the Vinci rockers and correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you state, (in another thread) that these actually creat more lift as apposed to a standard increased ratio rocker?
    they are a joint effort by vinci and crane back in the development days. crane markets them. these rockers are what crane calls quick lift rockers.

    her's how vinci explains how they work
    http://www.vincihighperformance.com/...HTML#quicklift

    The same laws of physics that limit every other cam designer limit our cam lobe designs. We attribute the advantage in valve lift to the "translation" properties of the varying ratio design of our Quick-Lift rocker body design. If you donít believe us, test any cam lobe (Crane, Comp, Cam Motion, etc.) with stock LS1 rockers. Install a dial indicator on the retainer and a degree wheel on the crank. Plot a lift vs. degrees of rotation curve. Then install the Crane LS1 1.7 rockers (with the pushrods in the Crane kit) and plot the same curve. Measure the duration at .200" net valve lift. The Crane rockers will definitely provide more duration at this checking point. The reason for this is that, contrary to popular belief, the stock LS1 rockers are only 1.7 ratio above .480" valve lift. They actually start the valve off the seat at a 1.54 ratio. What do you think that ratio does to a "super fast" cam lobe? Slows it down quite a bit? The Crane rockers, properly installed, bring the valve off the seat at 1.79. Doesnít take a math wiz here to see what combination is going to get open quicker and longer!! If you really want to see something interesting, take two lobes that have identical .050" seat-to-seat timing, identical .200" lifter rise timing, but one provides .583" valve lift with 1.7 ratio and the other providing .551 lift with 1.7 ratio. Plot a lift vs. duration curve with any rocker you want (other than Crane) and measure the duration at .200" valve lift. Then do a plot of the .551 cam with 1.8 Crane rockers (this will net out .583 also) and measure the duration difference at .200" valve lift. You will be impressed by how much more this second plot gives over the first. Itís also quicker on the drag strip! Weíve done this. Every person reading these threads can do something like this.
    the part in bold is why most other aftermarket rockers don't produce the same type of results. the SLP 1.85 ratio rockers are identical to stock rockers in design.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrr23 View Post
    have you ever measured the wipe? what you do is take a marking dye and put it on the valve tip. install the rocker. rotate the motor one full revolution. remove the rocker and look to see what got 'wiped' off. if the wipe pattern is centered on the valve, good. if it's more towards the intake side of the valve tip, then raising the rocker to push the tip back is in order. if it's on the exhaust side of the tip, then lowering the rocker is in order. things that change the wipe pattern from stock is milling heads, doing a valve job where cutting hte seats and valve will sink the valve deeper into the seat, thus raising the valve tip.
    If just turning it over once is enough, then yes, I have measured.

    Stayed centered.

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    Senior Member mrr23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Luos View Post
    If just turning it over once is enough, then yes, I have measured.

    Stayed centered.
    good deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrr23 View Post
    stock is 1.7. i put the crane 1.8 rocker kit on the wife's car. picked up 17 rwhp with the stock tune. the mods were lid, k/n filter, ported MAF, bassani headers w/catted y-pipe and borla exhaust.

    here's the dyno
    dyno 9 = baseline
    dyno 11 = 500 miles
    dyno 14 = 10 months later

    Click for full size
    I talked to the guy from crane today and from what Im told, that are a real SOB to install, Anyone know any good lsx mechanics in the NE ohio area that would be willing to install this? After seeing all the tight preload and stuff Im bound to jack something up lol

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    Senior Member mrr23's Avatar
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    they are easy to install. where people get hung up on is when they try to get to zero lash. basically you gently hand turn the locking nuts until you cannot lift the nose of the rocker off of the pushrod. turn the motor over one full revolution and recheck the rockers for zero lash. once you have achieved this, you do a 1/4 turn on all rockers. wait about five minutes and do another 1/4 turn. repeat for a total of seven 1/4 turns. inside the adjusting nut is the locking nut. turn this until it can't be turned. now, take the locking nut and the adjusting nut and turn both at the same time to no more than the last 1/4 turn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9t8z28 View Post
    No, wipe would be movement from exhaust side to intake side
    Correct, and with that much lift I am willing to be the wipe is poor at best with stock rockers. Here is a quote from Brian Tooley, who ports the TFS heads for Trick Flow:

    "A stock GM rocker opens the valve just like a rocking chair, moving from the intake side of the head to the exhaust side, without any real movement between the two, working like two gears meshing together if that makes sense, or just like how a rocking chair "rocks" on the floor. From .550" lift on it actually pulls the rocker arm backwards across the valve tip scrubbing the end of the rocker arm into the valve tip, this is where valve tip and valve guide wear stem from. I have seen the stock rocker drawn in CAD that could be put in motion and it works beautiful until .550" lift, from there on it looks scary."

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrr23 View Post
    they are a joint effort by vinci and crane back in the development days. crane markets them. these rockers are what crane calls quick lift rockers.

    her's how vinci explains how they work
    http://www.vincihighperformance.com/...HTML#quicklift



    the part in bold is why most other aftermarket rockers don't produce the same type of results. the SLP 1.85 ratio rockers are identical to stock rockers in design.
    Thanks to you Mrr23,,,the car we bought down in your neck of the woods has these crane rockers on it that were installed by Vinci down there. I pulled a cover off and sure enough they were staring at me.

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    One other thing, just to keep all the information in one place. Stock rockers or aftermarket rockers such as Harland Sharp and Yella Terra are fixed fulcrum rockers, i.e, when you bolt them down the pivot point is fixed in space. So the wipe can only be altered by raising and lowering the pivot point with shims or if lowering is required lashing caps. The pushrod length will only determine lifter pre-load once the rocker geometry is correctly adjusted to obtain a good wipe pattern.

    The Cranes discussed above are fully adjustable stud mounted rockers, and in this case the pushrod sets the wipe pattern and the lifter pre-load. They are a little more tricky to set up from scratch but not hard. Notice I stated from scratch as the Crane kit is all figured out for you if you have stock heads (or AFR's with the AFR kit).
    Last edited by vettenuts; 07-16-2008 at 09:48 AM.

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    wow I just learned alot. Looks like Ill be ordering the kit from work this week. So I'll probably be getting the 1.7 ratio that includes new pushrods.
    Last edited by Justin93; 07-15-2008 at 06:18 PM.

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    Senior Member mrr23's Avatar
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    lowest price i know of is $669.00 not just rockers and nuts. it's rockers, nuts, studs, guideplates, and pushrods.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrr23 View Post
    lowest price i know of is $669.00 not just rockers and nuts. it's rockers, nuts, studs, guideplates, and pushrods.
    My cost is way less since we sell crane stuff at the 4wd place I at work. Thats the only reason I thought about doing this

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin93 View Post
    wow I just learned alot. Looks like Ill be ordering the kit from work this week. So I'll probably be getting the 1.7 ratio that includes new pushrods.
    don't get 1.8...

    1.7 is what you'll want even later on... with the valve opening and closing sooner and later with the 1.8 if you decide to get a cam later on you cna end up with piston slap and a bent valve...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaz View Post
    don't get 1.8...

    1.7 is what you'll want even later on... with the valve opening and closing sooner and later with the 1.8 if you decide to get a cam later on you cna end up with a piston KISSING A PISTON and a bent valve...
    Fixed.
    Piston slap can be ANY LSx.

    Get what you want man. Just know the 1.8's will require you to do some math and preferably measurements to make sure a LARGE cam will have enough piston-to-valve clearance with the larger ratio rockers.

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