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Please Help a LS1 Newbie builld this 6.0 Vortech motor

This is a discussion on Please Help a LS1 Newbie builld this 6.0 Vortech motor within the Internal Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Ladies & Gentlemen, I have purchased a Cadillac ESV which is basically an all wheel drive Cadillac version of the ...

  1. #1
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    Please Help a LS1 Newbie builld this 6.0 Vortech motor

    Ladies & Gentlemen,

    I have purchased a Cadillac ESV which is basically an all wheel drive Cadillac version of the 1500 series Suburban with the 6.0L Vortech.

    The car stock had 6.0L 6000 H.O. V8: 345 hp at 5200 rpm, 380 lb-ft torque at 4000 rpm.

    I then added the stuff I knew about... brakes, suspension, and then the motor: A magnusen roots type supercharger with 6.5psi of boost and a Full exhaust system, Headers to tail. The car runs great, though I have no idea how much power I am getting at the crank.

    Q1) Can anyone make an educated real world estimate here please?

    Now the Questions:

    Q2) IS the cam in this car different than others? How does it make more power then the other GM cars like Suburban or GMC? about 10 more?


    I am ordering the following:

    - AFR 62cc Heads (225cc)
    - 9.5:1 Compression JE Pistons (thinking baout 9.0:1)
    - Stan Stroker crank for a 402cuin with their rods, etc

    Q3) The builder is telling me to go 0.030 over bore and get it to 408. Is this safe or worth messing with the block?


    Q4) Does anyone know the stock Cam's specs. Considering a cam of stock duration, but just a bit more lift. Any suggestions? Or should I just leave the stock cams in.

    Will have to go to a smaller pulley as the boost will drop a good bit with the increased displacement and free-er flowing heads. Would have even considered 8.6:1 compression ratio pistons but I just think the Magnuson is too eak of a supercharger and will not be able to supply enough boost.

    Q5) any opinon here?


    Q6) With the above setup, what do you think the naturally aspirated motor make as the blower will add 45% to that.

    Q7) is there anything else that you would recommend? By the way this is a daily driver and I tow 2000lbs with it once a month, though when towing I do not abuse it...

    Many thanks in advance

  2. #2
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    Nice buy. Will do my best to answer your questions.

    Q1) With the twin screw blower you are about 420HP approx. @ the crank if stock was 345. Run the car to 6000 RPM & HP will increase to 370 or so. There is a lot of power train loss w/ all wheel drive. So HP @ the wheels is about 75% of the crank HP.

    Q2) The 10HP if there is 10 HP difference is likely made from a slighly bigger TB or higher flowing intake. Something like that. Maybe the cam & maybe not. Don't know if the cam is different. Might also just be paper HP as GM loves to play around with numbers.

    Q3) Generally, forced induction likes low compression. A high compression stroker isn't ideal for a supercharged set up. .030" over bore is OK. If keeping supercharger, then, go with 9:1 compression. A cam should be installed to work together with the heads. If keepin the supercharger, then, a cam better suited to forced induction should be used. Your builder should be telling you about the best compression & head / cam combo for supercharged application. Make sure the car is tuned properly afterward. Don't know how one tunes an AWD vehicle on a chasis dyno.

    Q4) Forced induction is about moving a high volume of air. The fact that the pressure drops when adding a better intake, throttle body, heads/cam doesn't mean you need a smaller pulley. The pressure drop is a good thing. Less pressure does not mean less power. The volumetric efficiency of the motor is increased. This means that it makes the power with less stress to the motor. The Magneson is a good safe twin screw supercharger. As mentioned it's not about boost. Boost pressure is caused by restriction of the air being forced through the engine. Moving the same amount of air (twin screw is fixed displacement) with less restriction (less boost) is a good thing, as mentioned above. The key is to make sure that the supercharger is rated to move the volume of air that is required.

    Q7) Towing: Add a transmission cooler rated @ 24,000 GVW or higher immediately. This will help to get rid of the heat caused from towing. Towing without a cooler will heat the transmission fluid to an unsafe level that will fry your transmission. Towing in itself is abusing your car. Mostly transmission related. Cooling is the best way to combat the stress of towing.

    Good-luck with your car.

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    Thanks a lot for the info LS1-450, I wish I had your email....

    What I do not know is if I should go with 8.6:1 compression pistons. Will it be better or for that kind of compression I would need more than 6.5psi?

    I was hoping to be able to run 10psi, so I can get more power out of the strong bottom end. But I think I need a bigger blower for that.

    Any comments?

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    In my opinion, 9:1 is OK. However, 8.6:1 is also good. What size blower do you have? I would think it's am MP90. An MP90 flows about 600 CFM max. with the proper pulley. An MP112 will flow 800CFM. However, an adapter & mod's. will be required to fit it where an MP90 currently fits. The psi you keep referring to is a result of the back pressure created as the CFM (volume of air) is being forced through the engine. It's not the rating of the blower. As I said the MP90 flows 600 CFM max. @ around 14,000RPM & the MP112 flows 800 CFM max.@ around 14,000 RPM. I can see how an MP90 could be right on the edge.

    If the blower you have is indeed an MP90, then I'd go with 8.6:1 compression & a pulley that spins the blower @ 14,000 RPM when the engine is @ it's max. safe RPM. This would give you the best chance to create the most power with that supercharger, in my opinion. Again, your mechanic should be able to direct you on this. Would anticipate this set up could build in the 9ish p.s.i. range depending on head & exhaust flow.

    To send me an e-mail, all you have to do is left click my member name in the light blue area & one of the options that come up will be send LS1-450 an e-mail.

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    Well, I have the Magnuson or as they call it Magna charger. Its also called Radix, I could not find a model number for it or anything about its rating.

    Please add the ht.. and 3 ws to the addresses below, the forum does not allow me to post links until I have made 10 posts (stupid)... sorry

    magnusonproducts.com

    magnusonproducts.com/pdf/manual11.pdf

    Please let me know if you have any ideal how much this unit flows and if it could work. I was told by their tech support that with the smallest pulley on the 408 project I have in mind, I could expect 7.0psi. Then another one of their tech support declined to say anything, then another one told me to call Lingenfelter which I did and they told me it will just get hot and not make any more boost and I would be lucky to see 4psi... so the responses have been all over the map.

    I really do not have an experience tuner to help me and teh poeple I have talked to just know one setup in mind that they are comfortible with and want to repeat the same thing and do not care about what my needs are, typical... I am trying to see if I can salvage my $5K investment in this supercharger or I have to part with it and by a bigger one to get the real benefits of my new motor.

    I sincerely thank you for your help.

    Reza

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    Rexa,

    I have returned your e-mail. BTW, your heads flow under vacuum close to the output of the supercharger. This is why tech. is limited in commenting as to pressure. Boost is difficult to predict when head flow under vacuum is close to the supercharger output. Spinning faster is the only way with that blower to increase boost, hoping that there is enough header & exhaust restriction to build pressure. Also, the hot air from the blower can be cooled if need be. MP90 superchargers are good for 5.7L or less stock engines IMHO. 6.0L are duable, but, won't see as much benefit because of their ability to move more air under vacuum. This is why I have mentioned that the MP112 is better suited for what you are asking. Anyway, will comment further once receiving the information requested via e-mail.

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    I will provide as much info as I can. The engine at the moment has complete headers and cat back system. NO sure what kind they are but it’s a complete exhaust head to tail. The Magnuson supercharger does have an intercooler and runs a 3.3" belt pulley.

    So in a nut shell the long block being built was with the goal of not duplicating anything that is in existence i.e. Exhaust and blower. The long block complete is dyno tested at 562HP naturally aspirated, this is in a 408cuin (bored and stroked 6.0) with 8.6:1 compression with AFR 225cc heads and cam which is designed for a redline of 6200RPM.

    The Escalade has a little hotter cam than GMC or suburban and the intake is a little bigger, I think it’s a 75mm. With the 3.3" pulley it is making 6.5psi.

    With a 2.9" pulley I would still be OK, though at the max at 6200RPM, but I will set the shift points at 6000RPM. But will the 2.9" pulley make this blower run more air than the engine itself breathes? Its what I cannot conclude and you have helped a lot.

    I do favor putting in the 8.6 pistons so if in future I wanted to up the air pump, it would be OK, also given that naturally aspirated its making 562. The Magnuson guys (one of them said go with 9.5:1)

    Please look at the above situation collectively and let me know what you think. I trust your judgment since all of these guys could have altra motives and not tell me honestly what is the truth.

  8. #8
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    I had heard that the difference in HP between the trucks and the SUV's( Denali's and the Caddillac's were the intake) not sure how true or untrue that is????

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquifire
    I had heard that the difference in HP between the trucks and the SUV's( Denali's and the Caddillac's were the intake) not sure how true or untrue that is????
    Yes you are correct....

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by bismarck
    Yes you are correct....
    Are you referring to the intake manifold or the intake filter & tubing?

  11. #11
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    well i wouldsay that 562 NA with 8.6 CR is very good, i would up the CR by a point to 9.5 or even 10:1 Cr and have well over 600 HP at the crank and probably a good 525 or better at the wheels and put the bower up for sale.

    That way you are getting the kind of power you want with out the wory of keeping track of intake air temps and what not.

    Thats just my $.02

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