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Patriot Ls6 Stage 2 vs TSP 5.3 stage 2.5 Heads

This is a discussion on Patriot Ls6 Stage 2 vs TSP 5.3 stage 2.5 Heads within the Internal Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Originally Posted by SSwt00SS that because Patriot had a batch of bad heads, similar to when comp had their bad ...

  1. #21
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSwt00SS View Post
    that because Patriot had a batch of bad heads, similar to when comp had their bad batch of 918's and everyone (whether used them or not), jump on the stay clear of these guys products bandwagon....blah, blah, blah. you always hear more bad than good. period.

    variables exist in regards to all stock and aftermarket parts. you can still use the exact identical parts and still get two completely different results. just like two identical cars have the capacity to perform in different manners with the same components.

    its true et's are supposed to settle it all, but again, vairables exist. its about compiling a build in which all parts complement one another and not making up for the shortcomings of individual parts.

    i have personal experience with patriot heads. for me and my build, they have been worth every penny i bought them for. i have not had any issues while running these heads for the last 4 yrs.
    There are more patriot head users out there that are not happy with the power output than not. Most tuners seem to mention they are down on power as well compared to other head/cam combos they tune.

    Not saying it's a terrible head, but there are better options out there for the same money.

  2. #22
    Senior Member INMY01TA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    There are more patriot head users out there that are not happy with the power output than not. Most tuners seem to mention they are down on power as well compared to other head/cam combos they tune.

    Not saying it's a terrible head, but there are better options out there for the same money.
    Exactly how my tuner feels about em.

  3. #23
    Member jetaws6's Avatar
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    Well most of you guys are leaning towards the Texas Speed heads. Are there any other good heads out there that can meet my goals and still be in my price range?

  4. #24
    Visualize°Design°Create SSwt00SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc 85Z28 View Post
    Patriots bad batch is still in production. Their problems extend well beyond just the LSx line of products! You are THE ONLY ONE who has ever had results like you've posted. Most with similar or identical builds to you are lucky to see 420rwhp and are stuck in the 12s. 99.999% of the time properly done 5.3 heads and a big cam will put your combo to shame. You seem to be that one and only exception.




    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    There are more patriot head users out there that are not happy with the power output than not. Most tuners seem to mention they are down on power as well compared to other head/cam combos they tune.

    Not saying it's a terrible head, but there are better options out there for the same money.
    i highly suspect im the ONLY ONE. again varibles exist. maybe my car was a factory freak since it dyno'd 325/330 stock (yes i have the dyno sheet), so perhaps thats the difference in HP you mention.

    also, i said i dont buy into the 5.3/big cam combo. i did not say, its an inferior setup. as for people w/420rwhp and stuck in the 12's, that opens up a whole other set of variables and conditions.

    im not sitting here typing excuses. rather i'm attempting to get everyone to think of what it takes and what exists for differences across the board in regards to the final product/results, and what it takes to do a build correctly to meet ones build goals.

    furthermore, im not trying to sway anyones mind here in the never ending pissing match of which set of heads are better than another. im just saying i have had great experience with the patriot heads im running. since i have personal experience with one of the two sets of heads he asked about, i posted my opinion on what i know, not on what ive heard or read.

    stock dyno run back in march of 2006. no mods, no bs:


  5. #25
    Member jetaws6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSwt00SS View Post
    i highly suspect im the ONLY ONE. again varibles exist. maybe my car was a factory freak since it dyno'd 325/330 stock (yes i have the dyno sheet), so perhaps thats the difference in HP you mention.

    also, i said i dont buy into the 5.3/big cam combo. i did not say, its an inferior setup. as for people w/420rwhp and stuck in the 12's, that opens up a whole other set of variables and conditions.

    im not sitting here typing excuses. rather i'm attempting to get everyone to think of what it takes and what exists for differences across the board in regards to the final product/results, and what it takes to do a build correctly to meet ones build goals.

    furthermore, im not trying to sway anyones mind here in the never ending pissing match of which set of heads are better than another. im just saying i have had great experience with the patriot heads im running. since i have personal experience with one of the two sets of heads he asked about, i posted my opinion on what i know, not on what ive heard or read.

    stock dyno run back in march of 2006. no mods, no bs:
    Why shouldnt I buy the 5.3 heads?

  6. #26
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetaws6 View Post
    Well most of you guys are leaning towards the Texas Speed heads. Are there any other good heads out there that can meet my goals and still be in my price range?
    Quote Originally Posted by jetaws6 View Post
    Why shouldnt I buy the 5.3 heads?
    For the money you want to spend, you are somewhat limited. I'd personally lean towards the Texas Speed ported heads.
    As far as 5.3's, alot of people use them and are happy. My opinion with that is, I'd rather start with an LS6 casting for the better designed exhaust port, which should have a better I/E ratio. It's about the same money give or take $100 or so. But should be much easier to make power with, especially with a milder camshaft.

    I don't believe the 5.3 heads have the flat exhaust floor of the LS6 heads, which is what gives them the D-shaped port. Really helps the short turn radius and mid lift flow numbers.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by jetaws6 View Post
    Why shouldnt I buy the 5.3 heads?
    There is nothing wrong with the 5.3 heads. The fact that most compare the Patriot LS6 heads to the PRC 5.3 speaks volumes. LS6 heads in general start and end superior to the 5.3s, but at a cost. Patriot stuff time and time again falls short both in power, performance, and quality. Being in MD you won't have to go very far to find this out firsthand. There are more than a few guys around here that have thrown the Patriot stuff in the trash in favor of the PRCs - they made more power and went faster.

    The PRC 5.3 heads are the best bang for the buck head when you're on a budget. Spend the same amount and gamble with the Patriots - maybe you'll be the one in a thousand who is happy

  8. #28
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc 85Z28 View Post
    There is nothing wrong with the 5.3 heads. The fact that most compare the Patriot LS6 heads to the PRC 5.3 speaks volumes.
    Ya, that's 2 different places porting though. Which shows to me that, even with Patriot starting out with a superior casting, they still have a hard time beating a lesser casting of the 5.3's ported from another vendor.

    It's really a matter of what you want to spend. When talking $1,500 for ported 5.3's,,,another $200 or so is chump change to just start with an LS6 casting and have the potential to make more power.
    As expensive as building an engine is, and doing it right, why skimp on $2-300 right where it counts??? Just sayin'

    Keeping in mind the 5.3 casting with it's weaker exhaust port will more than likely need a different grind camshaft to extract the most from that head. A head with weaker I/E ratios will tend to make a bit more power with a split duration camshaft of somewhere in the area of 4-8* favoring the exhaust side. Nothing wrong with that, you are just giving the engine what it wants.

    The LS6 heads??? Not so much, if at all. Which makes camshaft selection much easier.

  9. #29
    Visualize°Design°Create SSwt00SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetaws6 View Post
    Why shouldnt I buy the 5.3 heads?
    same reason i said yesterday and other members have said: airflow

  10. #30
    Member jetaws6's Avatar
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    Well I bought a pair of heads the other day for a deal I couldn't pass up I got em used for 800 the guy said they had 3000 mi on em before he decided on building a 427 and the heads look almost brand new. Just some minor carbon build up on them but ill be able to clean that off. Here are the flow numbers

    Last edited by jetaws6; 03-19-2010 at 07:53 AM.

  11. #31
    Member squirlnutz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetaws6 View Post
    I am trying to do some research on some heads around the $1500 range. These heads are a little under that but I do not want to spend over 1700 on heads. My goal is to be in the 450 range with an ms3 cam. Important bolt on's are FAST 92mm, 92mm TB and true duals not cats. Is my goal possible with either of these heads, which ones are better for what I want, or are these heads no good and I need to keep looking? My car is a m6, not a DD and sees the strip roughly twice a month.
    MS3 is by TSP. THEY WILL tell you what head to run. They ground the cam

  12. #32
    Member squirlnutz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetaws6 View Post
    Well most of you guys are leaning towards the Texas Speed heads. Are there any other good heads out there that can meet my goals and still be in my price range?
    Quote Originally Posted by squirlnutz View Post
    MS3 is by TSP. THEY WILL tell you what head to run. They ground the cam
    What are all the graphs for? Texas Speed and performance made that cam years ago. They will tell you how to 'bes toon fo yo buk' . Call them, E-mail them, what ever, just contact them. Its their cam. Dont be a fool

  13. #33
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetaws6 View Post
    Well I bought a pair of heads the other day for a deal I couldn't pass up I got em used for 800 the guy said they had 3000 mi on em before he decided on building a 427 and the heads look almost brand new. Just some minor carbon build up on them but ill be able to clean that off. Here are the flow numbers

    Click for full size
    That flow chart shows an I/E ratio of roughly 85% across the board. If that is accurate, it should show a nice smooth HP/TQ curve with the right camshaft. Won't need a cam that favors the exhaust side much, if at all.

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    $1699 for TFS 220cc fast as cast.you can run stock rockers with TSP heads.TSP offers so many cost saving combos ,you can't afford to run fast with out them.

  15. #35
    Member jetaws6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    That flow chart shows an I/E ratio of roughly 85% across the board. If that is accurate, it should show a nice smooth HP/TQ curve with the right camshaft. Won't need a cam that favors the exhaust side much, if at all.
    Thats a flow chart for the heads so it should be accurate

  16. #36
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetaws6 View Post
    Thats a flow chart for the heads so it should be accurate
    I hope they work out okay for you.

    Your best bet now would be to contact a cam manufacture. I've dealt with Comp quite a bit.

    Tell them your combo, answer their questions and send them a copy of the flow chart. They will taylor a camshaft to fit. If they don't have one off the shelf they will custom grind it, (still costs the same), or recommend something they know works.
    That way you get a camshaft that should work better than just picking something from a catalog.

  17. #37
    Member jetaws6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    I hope they work out okay for you.

    Your best bet now would be to contact a cam manufacture. I've dealt with Comp quite a bit.

    Tell them your combo, answer their questions and send them a copy of the flow chart. They will taylor a camshaft to fit. If they don't have one off the shelf they will custom grind it, (still costs the same), or recommend something they know works.
    That way you get a camshaft that should work better than just picking something from a catalog.
    Yea I was thinking about doing that. I want a cam with some really good power gains and I don't care about street ability because its not my DD. That's probably my best bet though is to just call a manufacturer.

  18. #38
    Member squirlnutz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirlnutz View Post
    MS3 is by TSP. THEY WILL tell you what head to run. They ground the cam
    Quote Originally Posted by squirlnutz View Post
    What are all the graphs for? Texas Speed and performance made that cam years ago. They will tell you how to 'bes toon fo yo buk' . Call them, E-mail them, what ever, just contact them. Its their cam. Dont be a fool
    Quote Originally Posted by jetaws6 View Post
    Yea I was thinking about doing that. I want a cam with some really good power gains and I don't care about street ability because its not my DD. That's probably my best bet though is to just call a manufacturer.
    Good idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squirlnutz View Post
    Good idea.
    it's all in how you word it.......

  20. #40
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    so do you guys know what custom cam he should go with if he went ls6 stage two, with having to flycut the pistons? how big could be go?

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