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My 6 Liter 403ci Build

This is a discussion on My 6 Liter 403ci Build within the Internal Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Originally Posted by SMWS6TA Well....next minor headache....gotta clearance the block to clear the rod bolts to clear the stroke. Looks ...

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    Exalted Cyclops 67CamaroRSSS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMWS6TA View Post
    Well....next minor headache....gotta clearance the block to clear the rod bolts to clear the stroke. Looks like I need to get some dremel stuff.....

    It's not much but still needs to be done.
    Avoid the Dremel tools unless it's for really small stuff. I burnt out a Dremel deburring a block and ended up buying a really nice Makita for 1/4" shaft tools. Much faster too. Get a speed control (a box with a rheostat to control speed) if you can find one as it makes it easier to control.
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    Used 2 bits but we think we got it enough to clear the rod bolts.

    A little progress. And yes we clean the block before we did this. Not Tq down yet, we still want to make sure the rods will clear before we get to that.




    Working on installing the wrist pins on the pistons, then rings next.

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    Exalted Cyclops 67CamaroRSSS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMWS6TA View Post
    Used 2 bits but we think we got it enough to clear the rod bolts.

    A little progress. And yes we clean the block before we did this. Not Tq down yet, we still want to make sure the rods will clear before we get to that.

    Click for full size


    Working on installing the wrist pins on the pistons, then rings next.
    Did you check for clearance around the cam and windage tray as well?

    Most folks that don't do this kind of stuff for a living forget that stroker cranks (and related components) go just as much up and down (cam and journals as well as windage tray) as the go side to side (pan rails and the bottom of the cylinder walls). Yeah, I've done this a time or 2...

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    Spaz is My Mentor SMWS6TA's Avatar
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    we are checking it all out as it put together. I'll let you know when we get to that part of the process.

    We are taking our time making sure everything clears and is assemble right. F' ups are expensive lessons......

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    Exalted Cyclops 67CamaroRSSS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMWS6TA View Post
    we are checking it all out as it put together. I'll let you know when we get to that part of the process.

    We are taking our time making sure everything clears and is assemble right. F' ups are expensive lessons......
    Experience: It's what you get when you didn't get what you wanted the 1st (or 2nd or 3rd) time...
    SMWS6TA likes this.

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    Spaz is My Mentor SMWS6TA's Avatar
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    so I rediscovered the ancient lost art of pissing your wife off so you can have time to do what you want to do.


    Installed the rings, oh so much mofo fun to do...

    pajeff02 likes this.

  7. #607
    Exalted Cyclops 67CamaroRSSS's Avatar
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    2002 Z28 A4 NBM
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    Are you blueprinting the assembly? Lots 'o stuff to check if you are.

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    Spaz is My Mentor SMWS6TA's Avatar
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    A lot of the blue printing was done already. We are making sure everything lines up and is still correct. The check, recheck, then check again mantra....


    Yes I have one but didn't need to use it. Rings went on, only difficult part was dealing with the extra ring the pistons came with and the oil waffle ring & it's 2 buddies. Making sure the waffle ring wasn't overlapping as well as getting it in the groves was the PITA.

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    Exalted Cyclops 67CamaroRSSS's Avatar
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    2002 Z28 A4 NBM
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    Waffle ring, huh? I've heard that before but haven't heard it called that in a month of Sundays. Technically it's called the "expansion ring" and the two thin ones are the oil scrappers...

    Also, what type of compression rings are you using? The moly rings are instant seat (no break in period) rings and are what race teams use. Cast iron takes about 500 miles or so to seat in. Different types of rings require different honing on the cylinders. Generally rings are tapered. You did insure that the 2 dots on the rings were facing up, yes? Just checking...
    Last edited by 67CamaroRSSS; 03-12-2015 at 10:24 AM.

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    Total Seal CR file fit ring set. They have been filed by the machine shop for the correct spacing. I didn't know that about Moly, I was planing on 500 mile break in anyways.

    I couldn't remember the correct name but you got the idea.

    Yes on dots. But I have someone else helping me and he's going to check all again before we drop in. Kinda going with a 2 man rule here...

    Like I said I don't want a repeat of last time.....

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    Senior Member Naaman's Avatar
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    Oh, gosh, blueprinting.... Measure 1000 times and get 999 different results. Go with the one that showed up twice!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SMWS6TA View Post
    A lot of the blue printing was done already. We are making sure everything lines up and is still correct. The check, recheck, then check again mantra....


    Yes I have one but didn't need to use it. Rings went on, only difficult part was dealing with the extra ring the pistons came with and the oil waffle ring & it's 2 buddies. Making sure the waffle ring wasn't overlapping as well as getting it in the groves was the PITA.
    Are you using Plastigage or are you micing the rods and mains? While using a micrometer and/or snap gage or bore gage is the preferred method, Plastigage is a fine substitute for an engine that isn't going to be raced all the time.

    Last time I blueprinted an engine I started out with 3 sets of rod and main bearings and I mixed and matched them to get the closest to nominal all around. I also used a snap gage and a micrometer to get readings.

    Assemble, disassemble. Repeat until you get the results you want. This is one of the reasons race prepped engines are so expensive.

    Also, are you scuffing up the backside of the bearing shells?

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    using plastigauge

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    Quote Originally Posted by 67CamaroRSSS View Post

    Assemble, disassemble. Repeat until you get the results you want. This is one of the reasons race prepped engines are so expensive.
    I'm not super familiar with the process, but is it okay to repeatedly assemble and tear down an engine? I suppose if you're not running it in between tear-downs, it's fine?
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    Basically it's checking all the clearances for the crank, rods and cam bearings. You also check for ring gap and in my case rod clearance to account for the increase stroke. Otherwise the crank won't turn. I need a 0.065" clearance between the rod bolt and the block. This is to also account for material expansion from heat.

    The cam you need to mic the cam journals, then the cam, look up the clearance specs to see if your within tolerances. (This you'll do on all)
    Main caps you torque to spec and measure the same way. Same for the crank & rods (not installed), look up specs.

    The measurements you take from the journals, the rotating assembly & spec sheet will tell you if you need to use standard size bearings or if you need to use over/under size. It will also let you know if you need to polish or remove some material from the crank or rods to get correct sizing. This is what a shop will do if you're trying to save a crank if you spun a bearing.

    All this you can do but it's best to have a good engine machine shop do all this. They have the equipment and expertise.

    Now what I'm mostly doing is making sure the info they gave me is correct.

    Using plastigauge you install the bearings without lube, place the appropriate type of plastigauge (there are more than one size) in this case between the bearing and the crank. Tighten to spec and then remove the cap. Look at the crush plastigauge and using the key on the package it will let you know what your clearance is. Like Jim said, Great for everyday motors and street, but on hard core race motors they do more in-depth measurements.

    Now I have ARP studs for mains and head bolts, con rods too (If you ever decide to get ARP studs, go with 6 point, 12 point are a major PITA). ARP you can reuse because they are not torque to yield (TTY). One exception to that rule and that is if you use a stretch gauge say on con rod bolts, then they are one time use. GM loves TTY bolts on cyl heads and harmonic balancer bolt. Mains are reusable.

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    Yeah, that makes sense. When I took my race-engine class we tore down a 350, cleaned it, blue printed it and reassembled it. Then we dyno'd if for a baseline. Then we talked about what makes an engine work and how torque is made and how horsepower is made, etc. Then we were given an imaginary budget and we "bought" parts to try and spec out and build the engine to make as much horsepower as possible. There were tons of different heads, cams, pistons, cranks, etc to choose from. Each group in the class was competing to see who could gain the most RWHP. Our baseline was 234/295 if I remember correctly. Our final result was 324/380 or so.

    I just couldn't understand how using a mic would be considered "consistent" because each time I measured, I got a different result. Of course, out of roundness makes things interesting (or did I just mess up the measurement? Who knows? ) Anyway, when 1/10,000 of an inch actually matters, I don't feel comfortable relying on hand tools... but it was all we had, and really just for learning's sake, so whatever.

    They showed us plastigauge, but wouldn't let us use it. Haha!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naaman View Post
    I'm not super familiar with the process, but is it okay to repeatedly assemble and tear down an engine? I suppose if you're not running it in between tear-downs, it's fine?
    Ever watch the big boys in the pits at an NHRA event? Those engines come apart after every pass. Granted, it is all highly specialized aftermarket expensive as hell stuff, but it comes apart and goes back together multiple times in a weekend.

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    Spaz is My Mentor SMWS6TA's Avatar
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    I suspect they are a little more loose with some things. They'll run one maybe 2 passes and swap a motor or tranny

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    Senior Member Naaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pajeff02 View Post
    Ever watch the big boys in the pits at an NHRA event? Those engines come apart after every pass. Granted, it is all highly specialized aftermarket expensive as hell stuff, but it comes apart and goes back together multiple times in a weekend.
    My reservation comes from the fact that the metal expands and contracts during it's life cycle. I've always been taught that "these things aren't designed to be taken constantly disassembled and reassembled." Especially when you mix iron and aluminum and stuff like that.

    But, I would say I'm less than an amateur when it comes to automotive things, so I defer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naaman View Post
    My reservation comes from the fact that the metal expands and contracts during it's life cycle. I've always been taught that "these things aren't designed to be taken constantly disassembled and reassembled." Especially when you mix iron and aluminum and stuff like that.

    But, I would say I'm less than an amateur when it comes to automotive things, so I defer.
    The assembly / disassembly sequence during the blueprinting phase takes place before the engine is fired. Once it's fired the pieces take a "set" to each other. the only reason you'd take it back apart is if it blows up (Duh) or you want to see what happened to the parts after they bed in to each other. Even then you "could" reassemble everything provided you put the bearing shells back in the same place you took them out and the pistons back in the bore they came out of. A flat tappet cam would require the same tappets go back onto the lobe they came off of as they bed into each other also. A roller cam not so much. That's why you'll see a roller cam being reused over and over.

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