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My 6 Liter 403ci Build

This is a discussion on My 6 Liter 403ci Build within the Internal Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Yes, finally I've gotten enough parts in that I can start working on my 6 liter build. Here's my list, ...

  1. #1
    Spaz is My Mentor SMWS6TA's Avatar
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    My 6 Liter 403ci Build

    Yes, finally I've gotten enough parts in that I can start working on my 6 liter build.

    Here's my list, anything that has (*) is stuff that will be coming off my LS1:

    If any of you see something I've over looked please say something

    Parts On Hand:
    LQ4 Short Block from 04’ Silverado 2500 6.0L
    S3 Ported & Polished Throttle Body (*)
    99 < Knock Sensors & wire harness (*)
    LS6 intake, fuel rails, injectors, & coil packs (*)
    243 Heads with valve covers & coil pack bracket
    BTR Dual Valve Springs .660” Lift
    Stock Rockers with Comp Cams LSX Rocker Arm Trunion Upgrade
    2 sets of Chrome Moly Push Rods (7.4" & 7.325”)
    LS6 Valley Cover Tray Part # 12577927 (*)
    Melling High Flow/Volume Oil Pump Part #: 10296
    Stage 3 POLLUTER Cam 239/244 | .62x”/.59x” | LSA112
    Ls2 Lifter Trays, Part # 12595365 (*)
    F Body Oil Pan with Magnetic Oil Drain Plug
    Poly Prothane Engine Mounts, Part #3-1151G Black
    LS2 Timing Chain, Part # 12586482
    LS1 Accessory Drive stuff from my LS1 (*)
    Set of LS2 Pistons and Connecting Rods (Need to replace 2 pistons, they have some damage that I'll just replace them for $50 ea)
    All Sensors & wire harness from LS1 (*)

    Parts Left to order:
    ARP Hex Cylinder Head Bolt Kit, 2004+ Blocks Part# 134-3610
    2 LS2 Pistons (GTO 6.0L) Part # 19178305
    ARP LS1/LS2 Main Stud Kit Part: 234-5608
    GM LSX Front Crank Seal, Part # 12585673
    Pilot Bearing for LS1 Based Vehicles, Part # 14061685
    GM LSX Timing Cover Gasket, Part # 12633904
    GM 6.0L LS2 Head Gasket, Multi-Layer Steel Part # 12589227
    Cam & Crank Bearings – I’m letting the machine shop tell me what size to get before I order
    Valve Cover Gaskets

    These I’m getting these from another member here:
    Water Pump Gasket
    Exhaust Manifold Gasket
    Rear Cover Gasket
    Rear Main Seal
    Pro-Series LS1 "Cracked Rod" Connecting Rod Bolts


    Tuning - Still need to find a tuner here. I've got several leads on some but want to talk it over with them first before I commit to them.

    Not sure if to get or not (Need input on these)

    BTR SLR Hydraulic Roller Lifters – Martin @ Tick (where I got my cam from) is suggesting I use these. I have LS7’s (Martin said they will work, but the BTR's are better) that are new in the LS1 but I'm not comfortable with reusing them since I’m real certain the LS1 has a rod bearing that has spun and there’s bearing material all over. So is my suspicion of bearing material in the lifter founded or not?

    GM LSX Oil Pan Gasket, Part # 12612350 – I can reuse my current one if no damage to it.


    Racetronix Fuel Pump & 42lb injectors - Talking with Martin (Tick Performance) he informed me that my 28lb injectors will run with this build but I'll be at around 90% rated capacity. Should I get prior to start up/tuning or you think I can hold off a couple of months.



    I plan on sending it to a machine shop as soon as I have all my gaskets and arp bolts come in. I need them to balance the crank with the LS2 rods & pistons, resize the connecting rods for ARP bolts, also plan on Magnaflux and hot tank the block.




    Last edited by SMWS6TA; 05-09-2013 at 06:44 AM.

  2. #2
    Spaz is My Mentor SMWS6TA's Avatar
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    Tuning subject:

    I've got 3 options here. Dyno, Street, & Density.

    Can someone explain the Pro's & Cons of the 3? Car will be a fun street (it will see hwy) and occasional track use.

  3. #3
    Moderator 98TransAmWs-6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMWS6TA View Post
    Yes, finally I've gotten enough parts in that I can start working on my 6 liter build.

    Here's my list, anything that has (*) is stuff that will be coming off my LS1:

    If any of you see something I've over looked please say something

    Parts On Hand:
    LQ4 Short Block from 04’ Silverado 2500 6.0L
    S3 Ported & Polished Throttle Body (*)
    99 < Knock Sensors & wire harness (*)
    LS6 intake, fuel rails, injectors, & coil packs (*)
    243 Heads with valve covers & coil pack bracket
    BTR Dual Valve Springs .660” Lift
    Stock Rockers with Comp Cams LSX Rocker Arm Trunion Upgrade
    2 sets of Chrome Moly Push Rods (7.4" & 7.325”)
    LS6 Valley Cover Tray Part # 12577927 (*)
    Melling High Flow/Volume Oil Pump Part #: 10296
    Stage 3 POLLUTER Cam 239/244 | .62x”/.59x” | LSA112
    Ls2 Lifter Trays, Part # 12595365 (*)
    F Body Oil Pan with Magnetic Oil Drain Plug
    Poly Prothane Engine Mounts, Part #3-1151G Black
    LS2 Timing Chain, Part # 12586482
    LS1 Accessory Drive stuff from my LS1 (*)
    Set of LS2 Pistons and Connecting Rods (Need to replace 2 pistons, they have some damage that I'll just replace them for $50 ea)
    All Sensors & wire harness from LS1 (*)

    Parts Left to order:
    ARP Hex Cylinder Head Bolt Kit, 2004+ Blocks Part# 134-3610
    2 LS2 Pistons (GTO 6.0L) Part # 19178305
    ARP LS1/LS2 Main Stud Kit Part: 234-5608
    GM LSX Front Crank Seal, Part # 12585673
    Pilot Bearing for LS1 Based Vehicles, Part # 14061685
    GM LSX Timing Cover Gasket, Part # 12633904
    GM 6.0L LS2 Head Gasket, Multi-Layer Steel Part # 12589227
    Cam & Crank Bearings – I’m letting the machine shop tell me what size to get before I order
    Valve Cover Gaskets

    These I’m getting these from another member here:
    Water Pump Gasket
    Exhaust Manifold Gasket
    Rear Cover Gasket
    Rear Main Seal
    Pro-Series LS1 "Cracked Rod" Connecting Rod Bolts


    Tuning - Still need to find a tuner here. I've got several leads on some but want to talk it over with them first before I commit to them.

    Not sure if to get or not (Need input on these)

    BTR SLR Hydraulic Roller Lifters – Martin @ Tick (where I got my cam from) is suggesting I use these. I have LS7’s (Martin said they will work, but the BTR's are better) that are new in the LS1 but I'm not comfortable with reusing them since I’m real certain the LS1 has a rod bearing that has spun and there’s bearing material all over. So is my suspicion of bearing material in the lifter founded or not?

    GM LSX Oil Pan Gasket, Part # 12612350 – I can reuse my current one if no damage to it.


    Racetronix Fuel Pump & 42lb injectors - Talking with Martin (Tick Performance) he informed me that my 28lb injectors will run with this build but I'll be at around 90% rated capacity. Should I get prior to start up/tuning or you think I can hold off a couple of months.



    I plan on sending it to a machine shop as soon as I have all my gaskets and arp bolts come in. I need them to balance the crank with the LS2 rods & pistons, resize the connecting rods for ARP bolts, also plan on Magnaflux and hot tank the block.




    I would just get the BTR lifters Scott. If for nothing else for peace of mind. That is what I intend on doing with my build. Also Frost suggested 33# injectors for me when I did my SD tune with him FIC sells 33# in the ls1 style (EV1), he said it would cover me even with a huge cam and heads. You could go with 36s as well.
    1998 Trans Am WS6 - Phantom
    421 CI LQ9, Tick Performance Custom Cam, TFS 255cc LS3 heads, Kooks 2" LT headers, Kooks 3" True Duals w/ high flow cats, FTP 104 lid, Speed Density Tune, 4" silicon tube, LS6 VCT, FAST 102 Intake, NW 102 TB, Oil Catch Can, SLP Bilstein Shocks w/ Vogtland Springs, CTS-V 4-piston Calipers w/C6 Z06 rotors, Stainless Steel Brake Lines, R1 concepts premium rotors, Hawk HP+ brake pads, VFN WSQ Hood, C5-R timing chain, SLP oil pump, E85 tune, Walbro 450 fuel pump, Deatschwerkz 95# injectors, Breathless performance headlights, Frost Tune, !HVAC.
    (Coming Soon) BMR DSL, UMI TQ Arm
    421 LQ9 14.8:1 on E85 Build/

  4. #4
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Sounds like you're getting there.

    If you've had trash pass through the engine, I'd probably do a new set of lifters too. Unless you can completely disassemble and clean the current hydraulic lifters (you can remove the lock ring and plunger) check for scoring and wear, and then hope you get everything.
    But honestly if it were me, this is a great time to upgrade and if your cam manufacture offers what they believe to be a better lifter design, I'd go for it. Hydraulic lifters in the aftermarket have come a long way and are better in many ways than OEM stuff.

    I had a similar instance where a brand new engine ate 2 cam lobes off a roller cam. Turned out AFR installed the wrong springs and it was too much for the cast roller cam. I went billet roller and a new set of springs but the damage was done. So much trash passed through it that I had to completely disassemble everything, and went with another set of new lifters too. Disassembled the heads and block completely to run through the washer,,,,again. And cleaned every usable part that went back in.

    You can't be too clean when assembling a new engine.

    What's the deal with only 2 new pistons? Something happen?

  5. #5
    Spaz is My Mentor SMWS6TA's Avatar
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    I got a set of used LS2 pistons & rods for great deal ($60) that for the most part are in great shape except for one. A lot of pitting on the piston top (I'll post a pic later), the damage is from a valve spring that let go and dropped the valve while the guy I got them from was making a run at the track. Ended up trashing the head too. So, he decided to go with a forged 408 setup. On the 2nd one I see some damage that looks like it happen in shipping. The box look like USPS did a Ace Ventura re-enactment. After I got them I took them to a machine shop and had them look over. They recommend to swap the 2 out and that the rods are still good.


    So for $60 plus another $100 (the cost of the replacement pistons) I can up my compression from 9.4 to 11.1 (average estimate).


    I went on a budget build this time. I still plan on a 408 build later so I'll spend the $$$ for forged rods, crank, pistons, etc then....This is mainly to get me back n the road and have some fun while I save up for the 408 build.

  6. #6
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Gotcha You'll have to rebalance the assembly anyway but I thought I read you had mentioned that already.

    With the rods resized, new bolts, and everything balanced, the only thing I don't see mentioned is possibly turning the crank if it needs it. The shop you use should know, and you might just get away with polishing it and using standard bearings if it's in good shape. That doesn't save you much ($60-$80) but every little bit helps.

  7. #7
    Spaz is My Mentor SMWS6TA's Avatar
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    I'm having the shop tell me what rings & bearings to order and get it to short block. I'll have them degree the cam too.

  8. #8
    Senior Member redbird555's Avatar
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    I would definitely go with BTR lifters not much more money and very nice pieces. Also for the tuning aspect I would go with dyno or street preferably dyno. The speed density basically takes the maf and O2's out of the equation and runs off one tune. If you take a road trip and altitude or DA varies greatly the maf wont be there to adjust for it.

    Dyno will allow the tuner to monitor everything instantly as it happens and make adjustments. Street tuning will allow pretty much they same thing but on a dyno things are more controlled and a lot of different parameters are monitored along with having an actual graph of what the power looks like.

    Also the injectors running at 90% duty will work but arent ideal. And later on you will have to retune everything for larger injectors. My thoughts are get some red top or green top ford ones. The reds are rated at 36lb's but they are only rated at ~40 psi where as gm is 58psi so in reality at 58psi they will flow like 42 lb gm ones. The best part is theyre cheap and so are the wiring adapters for them.

    Oh and one other thing if you're going to have the cam degreed make sure you pick up and adjustable timing set. I didnt see one on your list and the stock timing set wont let you degree a cam
    Last edited by redbird555; 05-09-2013 at 10:45 AM.

  9. #9
    She-Member jrbonds's Avatar
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    Thanks REDBIRD, that answered a bunch of my questions also, considering I'm going with almost the same setup as Scott.

  10. #10
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    DO NOT GET FIC INJECTORS!!!

    They are the reason Frost could not tune my car last time I was at his shop. None of the injectors were flowing anywhere near the same and were causing all sorts of problems. For mild builds like this, try to find a set of stock injectors from either a Ford or GM. I am currently using LS9 injectors.

    Quote Originally Posted by redbird555 View Post
    I would definitely go with BTR lifters not much more money and very nice pieces. Also for the tuning aspect I would go with dyno or street preferably dyno. The speed density basically takes the maf and O2's out of the equation and runs off one tune. If you take a road trip and altitude or DA varies greatly the maf wont be there to adjust for it.
    So much wrong info here. Where to start...

    A real tuner will throw it on the dyno and get it 95% tuned. He will then take it out on the street and tune for stuff like red light to red light driving, mid rpm cruising, and street WOT pulls (completely different from dyno WOT pulls). If a tuner only dyno tunes your car you are only getting the car set for WOT pulls, no regular driving around.

    Speed Density does NOT get rid of the 02 sensors. It only gets rid of the MAF. You are also incorrect that a change in air density will throw the tune off completely. Air density changes in one area all of the time. Why do you think meteorologists call them high and low pressure weather systems? Also, all Chrysler V8s (not sure about other cars) come without a MAF and run a speed density tune from the factory. In short, get a tuner that knows what he's doing with the VE tables and you will be fine.

    Link for MAF vs MAP:
    Speed Density SD vs. Mass Air Flow MAF

  11. #11
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    Just to throw in my two cents..
    Ls2 timing chain is great for stock cams but when when your running an aggressive cam with high tension springs like that your better off getting a double roller chain. I think trickflow makes a bracket that lets you incorporate the ls2 damper in conjunction with the double roller chain. I had a similar cam with springs and installed the ls2 chain, and it broke on me. Talk about aggregating!! I had to replace valves, pushrods, and lifters. Just added insurance. I installed the double roller with the damper and had no issues since then.

  12. #12
    Moderator 98TransAmWs-6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ls1camino View Post
    DO NOT GET FIC INJECTORS!!!

    They are the reason Frost could not tune my car last time I was at his shop. None of the injectors were flowing anywhere near the same and were causing all sorts of problems. For mild builds like this, try to find a set of stock injectors from either a Ford or GM. I am currently using LS9 injectors.

    Quote Originally Posted by redbird555 View Post
    I would definitely go with BTR lifters not much more money and very nice pieces. Also for the tuning aspect I would go with dyno or street preferably dyno. The speed density basically takes the maf and O2's out of the equation and runs off one tune. If you take a road trip and altitude or DA varies greatly the maf wont be there to adjust for it.
    So much wrong info here. Where to start...

    A real tuner will throw it on the dyno and get it 95% tuned. He will then take it out on the street and tune for stuff like red light to red light driving, mid rpm cruising, and street WOT pulls (completely different from dyno WOT pulls). If a tuner only dyno tunes your car you are only getting the car set for WOT pulls, no regular driving around.

    Speed Density does NOT get rid of the 02 sensors. It only gets rid of the MAF. You are also incorrect that a change in air density will throw the tune off completely. Air density changes in one area all of the time. Why do you think meteorologists call them high and low pressure weather systems? Also, all Chrysler V8s (not sure about other cars) come without a MAF and run a speed density tune from the factory. In short, get a tuner that knows what he's doing with the VE tables and you will be fine.

    This. It also relies more so on the MAP sensor. You will get much better throttle response with SD. My charger has it and I like it so I had frost do a SD tune in my mail order tune.

    Link for MAF vs MAP:
    Speed Density SD vs. Mass Air Flow MAF
    Thanks for the heads up on FIC injectors. Will ls2s work on a FAST ls1/ls6 102 intake? My car is tuned for 33#, I have found different information whether ls2 injectors will fit physically in the intake and not leak.

  13. #13
    Sold: LS1 '85 El Camino ls1camino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xerocks View Post
    Just to throw in my two cents..
    Ls2 timing chain is great for stock cams but when when your running an aggressive cam with high tension springs like that your better off getting a double roller chain. I think trickflow makes a bracket that lets you incorporate the ls2 damper in conjunction with the double roller chain. I had a similar cam with springs and installed the ls2 chain, and it broke on me. Talk about aggregating!! I had to replace valves, pushrods, and lifters. Just added insurance. I installed the double roller with the damper and had no issues since then.
    There is no need to run a dampener with a double roller. It is tight enough to begin with and won't stretch like a single chain will.

    Quote Originally Posted by 98TransAmWs-6 View Post
    Thanks for the heads up on FIC injectors. Will ls2s work on a FAST ls1/ls6 102 intake? My car is tuned for 33#, I have found different information whether ls2 injectors will fit physically in the intake and not leak.
    The fuel rail mounts on the FAST102 are for a LS3 type rail. I ended up using my LS1 aftermarket rails and drilling two holes. The height difference in the injectors can be fixed with different brackets.

    here is the difference in injectors.

  14. #14
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ls1camino View Post
    Speed Density does NOT get rid of the 02 sensors. It only gets rid of the MAF. You are also incorrect that a change in air density will throw the tune off completely. Air density changes in one area all of the time. Why do you think meteorologists call them high and low pressure weather systems? Also, all Chrysler V8s (not sure about other cars) come without a MAF and run a speed density tune from the factory. In short, get a tuner that knows what he's doing with the VE tables and you will be fine.

    ]
    I agree, there is nothing wrong with running an SD tune, I run them on all our LS powered vehicles, love it, and I live in a part of the country where the altitude changes several thousand feet in any direction you drive. Works fine.
    If you are worried about changes in altitude you don't have to live in mountain terrain to be affected. Like mentioned the DA changes constantly all around the country no matter where you live. You can go from 1,000 ft to 4500 ft. in a few hours and never leave the spot you are parked in.
    SD tuning is basically the same principle as running a carb, just as gas engines have been doing for over 100 years without issues, and manufactures like chrysler for instance as you mentioned, still build fuel injection vehicles without the MAF, and are sold all over the country. They don't have different tunes for different altitudes.
    Granted changing the tune for different altitudes does affect performance, but the MAF still isn't a fix all, and the changes aren't huge either. I find that on my wide band living up here at 5,000 feet, then driving down to 1,000 feet, I'm only seeing a change in AFR of about .3 tenths. Not enough to worry about unless you're at the track looking for every last hundredth. The fact is that less air higher up (Or higher DA) still kills HP no matter what you adjust.
    If you are truely worried about the optimum tune and keeping the AFR in a certain range, you would be changing the tune every single day, 365 days a year, because the DA fluctuates constantly.
    Get too picky and you can really drive yourself nuts.
    Dzel likes this.

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    [QUOTE=ls1camino;2845446]
    Quote Originally Posted by xerocks View Post
    Just to throw in my two cents..
    Ls2 timing chain is great for stock cams but when when your running an aggressive cam with high tension springs like that your better off getting a double roller chain. I think trickflow makes a bracket that lets you incorporate the ls2 damper in conjunction with the double roller chain. I had a similar cam with springs and installed the ls2 chain, and it broke on me. Talk about aggregating!! I had to replace valves, pushrods, and lifters. Just added insurance. I installed the double roller with the damper and had no issues since then.
    There is no need to run a dampener with a double roller. It is tight enough to begin with and won't stretch like a single chain will

    Thats the theory but over time every chain stretches. Its a $30 bracket and since your there might as well put it in. I know one thing is for sure, you don't want it to break and I know several people that used it with a double roller.

  16. #16
    She-Member jrbonds's Avatar
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    You guys should work together to make this tuning information a "sticky".

  17. #17
    Spaz is My Mentor SMWS6TA's Avatar
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    wow didn't think this would be so interesting......so......I started tear down today. Doing all top side stuff first then working underneath.

    Took the nose off for extra room and I plan on sending out for paint anyways (clear is coming off + sever bug damage), Thanks Jeremy on the locations of those hidden bolts.


    If you look past the car you'll see my new work bench that I put in last weekend



    even put my son to work..



    hate those damn cowl screws, always slicing my hands & arms up.....The head bolts closest to the firewalls are always the hardest




    Both heads are loose, need to rent a ps pump puller and the drivers side will be off. As many times as I've pulled that damn thing I think I'm going to keep it this time.


    Also got the LQ4 on the stand for tear down. I'll blow it apart and get it ready to take to the machine shop.




    Any reason I need to remove the accessory drive stuff prior to lifting the block off? If I can't clear it I understand.






    Side project.

    I'm going to to the C6 fog light mod to my drl's while the nose is off. More to follow later.









    What to do with these 2 wire harness? I know one is to the EGR which has been long gone. I would like to cap it and get rid of it if possible. Any reason I can't or shouldn't?

    What is the bigger WH for?

    Last edited by SMWS6TA; 05-11-2013 at 08:42 PM.

  18. #18
    She-Member jrbonds's Avatar
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    Accessories should come off. Clearance is tight.

  19. #19
    Spaz is My Mentor SMWS6TA's Avatar
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    ok...I will.........

  20. #20
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    Pull the radiator out before the motor.

    I think that plug is for the A/C.

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