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Ms4 cam

This is a discussion on Ms4 cam within the Internal Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Originally Posted by importhater81 Just installed it last week....no it is not streetable right now,but I'm still waiting to get ...

  1. #81
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by importhater81 View Post
    Just installed it last week....no it is not streetable right now,but I'm still waiting to get it dyno tuned on Oct. 15th.

    A couple nights ago I had the PCM baseline tuned and put in 42 lbs injectors just so I could drive it home from where I work.

    So jury is still out until it's dyno tuned and dialed in on whether or not it's streetable to me.

    I do think it is all a matter of opinion and what people can deal with as to if an MS4 cam is streetable or not.
    I looked at the numbers on the website, not all that big of a cam in my opinion. The lift looks to be up there, only because we are talking about a roller camshaft that allows a faster ramp profile for the given duration numbers.
    But 239/242 at .050 isn't all that big, even for a 347. The 111 lsa would make it a bit choppy but it depends on how much advance they grind into the cam (intake centerline) which they don't tell you on the website. Driveability would also depend on where you install the cam, whether it be on there intake centerline or if you advance it even more, that would smooth the idle a bit but it moves the intake valve closer to the piston.

    Given the specs, I don't see any reason why this couldn't be street driven. I've tuned bigger cams on old carbed motors that were/are street driven all the time. Don't see a reason why you couldn't do it on a fuelie motor.

  2. #82
    Member LSXZ28's Avatar
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    The reason I would pick the MS3 over the MS4 for a street car is that lift number you are talking about - very hard on valve springs...

    I've tuned several MS4's and it can be done to be pretty streetable... just hope that "dyno tune" is more than just throwing it on the dyno and tuning WOT... you won't be happy if thats all your tuner does...

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  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    The 30/30 cam measures 254 at .050,,,,not 225 as you stated. I know for a fact, I have one of these in a DZ 302 and it does in fact come up very close to it's advertised numbers when I degreed it (give or take a couple degrees).
    So you degreed it? So? That doesn't help your argument... Get it cam doctored. It'll open your eyes.

    A true 254 degree cam in a 302 should peak near 8000rpm. The 30-30 is done by 6900-7000. A 225ish cam should peak around 6700-6800rpm. The DZ302 peaks at 6800rpm. So you tell me...
    Last edited by Marc 85Z28; 10-11-2010 at 10:03 AM.

  4. #84
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc 85Z28 View Post
    So you degreed it? So? That doesn't help your argument... Get it cam doctored. It'll open your eyes.

    A true 254 degree cam in a 302 should peak near 8000rpm. The 30-30 is done by 6900-7000. A 225ish cam should peak around 6700-6800rpm. The DZ302 peaks at 6800rpm. So you tell me...
    The duration of the cam has less to do with where the cam peaks than you are implying. It has more to do with where you install the cam relative to LSA/ICL. I can move the cam around (advance or retard) and make the cam peak where ever I want it to. These are infact 254 at .050 cams, and is the same cam used in the first half of the LT1 production in 1970.

    I currently have this cam 5 degrees advanced, (114 lsa installed at 109 ICL) and I'll bet it won't even peak at your claimed 6800 rpm ceiling. It might if I moved the cam back 3-4 degrees. Not sure how you get that means it's not 254 at .050 but anyway, when this motor hits the dyno we'll move the cam around for best numbers, then I'll probably switch over to the 1st design off road cam I have in a box here.
    It's 257/269 at .050 (yes those are real numbers) with .493/.512 lift on a 112 lsa. I've actually used this cam in a previous DZ car I had.
    That 224 number you are referring to is actually closer to the hydraulic cam numbers used in the little L79 and later in the 350/350hp motors. They aren't even close to the performance potential of these little DZ cams.

  5. #85
    This will be my last post on this matter, as you seem to be to set in your old ways to realize what's in front of you.

    Chevys duration numbers mean NOTHING. Every solid cam was measured in a different spot, with or without lash and you never knew what was what. The 30-30 and 097 cams were heavily scrutinized 35-40 years ago and it was proven by several reputable people and publications that that duration numbers were misleading to the point of being almost completely false. I suggest you put your personal experience aside for a moment and actually look up the FACTS.

  6. #86
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    That depends on which cam manufacture you are talking about. Some manufactures will send you the cam card and base their duration numbers at .006 (Comp Cam is one) but the industry standard for many years now has become .050 numbers because they are more accurate at that reading. Ever try to degree a cam with .006 numbers?

    Not sure why you seem to think duration numbers at .050 are false. I've got the cam card around here I can snap a picture of, it's in black and white. There are several "blue print" cams now on the market of this particular DZ cam made by Crane, Comp, Predator, Ultradyne etc... Given different lobe profiles and/or overlap that may vary slightly from one to the next, they all have .050 duration numbers of 254 straight accross with .485 lift at "0" lash. Mine is from Predator.

  7. #87
    Member jb3golf's Avatar
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    To Firebird Jones and Mark85Z28: AGREE TO DISAGREE!!!!! OBVIOUSLY you both have in-depth knowledge of this subject and you both make alot of sense. SO IT'S ALL GOOD!!!!! Just enjoy your vehicles and CAMS already!!

  8. #88
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Explain to me how the "BLUERPRINT" cams made now differ from the OE. I brought these up because they are legal for use in NHRA Stock Eliminator. They are made with the 254 at .050 duration just as the OEM cams had.
    Have to be to make them legal.

    They work well too for an old dinasour cam as it's been called. Macneish and Wenzell run 10.80's with a legal stock 302 using that cam.
    Remember JM's Old Reliable?? An NHRA "E" Stock legal 302 that ran 11.13 in 2005 with a stock DZ cam.

    Why don't we all just tell Macneish and Wenzell they are cheating because GM never made the DZ cam with 254 at .050 duration so their blueprint cams they run now simply can't be legal.

    Or better yet lets tell all the NHRA tech officials they are all wrong

    I sure would like to see some of this so called "factual" information you have there Marc, because it's just not jiving with whats out there.

  9. #89
    Member importhater81's Avatar
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    I had my Camaro dyno tuned yesterday. 406.7 hp and 393.5 torque.

    Not that I'm at all interested in the numbers...more interested to see what it'll run tomorrow at the strip.

    I put about 100 miles on it since I the the swap and had it tuned. It is not the most street friendly cam,and there is no way I'd want to daily drive it.
    It is kind of a dog at the lower rpm's but above 4000 rpm it screams.

    I'll post the E.T.'s after I get back from the track tomorrow.

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    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by importhater81 View Post
    I'll post the E.T.'s after I get back from the track tomorrow.
    Which track?

  11. #91
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by importhater81 View Post
    I had my Camaro dyno tuned yesterday. 406.7 hp and 393.5 torque.

    Not that I'm at all interested in the numbers...more interested to see what it'll run tomorrow at the strip.

    I put about 100 miles on it since I the the swap and had it tuned. It is not the most street friendly cam,and there is no way I'd want to daily drive it.
    It is kind of a dog at the lower rpm's but above 4000 rpm it screams.

    I'll post the E.T.'s after I get back from the track tomorrow.
    Are you finished tuning it? I mean drivability wise, not just for peak numbers. Do you have other things done that cam needs to work with? Without enough gear (and a better rearend to boot), suspension, tires, I'm not sure you'll be happy with the outcome at the track either. You shouldn't be below 4,000 at the track if setup to run as it should. Hope it works out okay for ya.

  12. #92
    Member importhater81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    Which track?
    Byron,just got back. Shitload of cars out there today.

  13. #93
    Member importhater81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Are you finished tuning it? I mean drivability wise, not just for peak numbers. Do you have other things done that cam needs to work with? Without enough gear (and a better rearend to boot), suspension, tires, I'm not sure you'll be happy with the outcome at the track either. You shouldn't be below 4,000 at the track if setup to run as it should. Hope it works out okay for ya.
    Done tuning it.Speed inc. did the tune and they did a decent job.

    I wasn't happy with the 12.1 e.t. at 111mph it ran today,but you are right I do need to swap out the stock 3.23 gear and was thinking about going with the F.A.S.T. intake and 90mm throttle body over the stock ls6 that's on it now.

    I did run drag radials so traction wasn't an issue...1.75 60 ft times.

  14. #94
    Member jb3golf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by importhater81 View Post
    Done tuning it.Speed inc. did the tune and they did a decent job.

    I wasn't happy with the 12.1 e.t. at 111mph it ran today,but you are right I do need to swap out the stock 3.23 gear and was thinking about going with the F.A.S.T. intake and 90mm throttle body over the stock ls6 that's on it now.

    I did run drag radials so traction wasn't an issue...1.75 60 ft times.
    If I were you I would wait on the fast setup. Spend THAT money on your rear end & gears. THEN watch your e.t.'s go down!!! Additionally, multiple testing shows the LS6 intake is one ofthe best AFFORDABLE intakes out there THAT performs imo.........

  15. #95
    Member importhater81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jb3golf View Post
    If I were you I would wait on the fast setup. Spend THAT money on your rear end & gears. THEN watch your e.t.'s go down!!! Additionally, multiple testing shows the LS6 intake is one ofthe best AFFORDABLE intakes out there THAT performs imo.........
    Definately going to atleast a 3.73 gear.

    But even with my stock 3.23 I think my trap speed was too low.

  16. #96
    Member jb3golf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by importhater81 View Post
    Definately going to atleast a 3.73 gear.

    But even with my stock 3.23 I think my trap speed was too low.
    Yeah, let us know how it goes once you change them out!!!!!

  17. #97
    Slow'er'Ass Mr. Luos's Avatar
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    Gear is killing you.
    Go at least 3.73 if A4 or 4.10 if M6.

    That cam honestly wants even more gear than that though.

  18. #98
    Veteran Blackbird WS6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Luos View Post
    Gear is killing you.
    Go at least 3.73 if A4 or 4.10 if M6.

    That cam honestly wants even more gear than that though.

  19. #99
    Member importhater81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Luos View Post
    Gear is killing you.
    Go at least 3.73 if A4 or 4.10 if M6.

    That cam honestly wants even more gear than that though.
    I'm an A4.

    Do you think a 3.73 isn't enough gear for that cam?

    I might have to go with a 4.10...

    Probably will end up just saving some $$$ and go with a 12 bolt or a 9 with maybe a 3.90

  20. #100
    Slow'er'Ass Mr. Luos's Avatar
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    It would want a 4.10 with the A4.
    Just high strung. Would really wake up your car.

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