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Ms4 cam

This is a discussion on Ms4 cam within the Internal Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Vid or didn't happen....

  1. #61
    LSX whore allbaugh_04's Avatar
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    Vid or didn't happen.

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    Slow'er'Ass Mr. Luos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allbaugh_04 View Post
    Vid or didn't happen.
    I have heard of it happening.
    Not really out that much when it comes to street racing though, so never seen it personally.

    The track and dyno are the places for the MS3/MS4/donkey dick cams. You need the gears and driveline to back up high RPM launches though too....

  3. #63
    blah '02 WS6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allbaugh_04 View Post
    Vid or didn't happen.
    No vid needed...I can vouch for his claim as well as my own when I was running Torqer 2 cam only I slapped around an MS3 Formy. Avg power throughout the curve is what wins races. When your cam's powerband begins around 3500 you're gonna suffer from a deadly race killing thing called cam lag. The smaller cams do not have this symptom as they are usually in the powerband around 25-2600. If an MS3/4 owner tells you they don't have it they're full of it. My Tv2 had slight lag from 2400-2800..but is still better than it being sloppy until almost 4k.
    '02 ws6.....mods? nope

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    Junior Member 1979rs/z28's Avatar
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    I'm sure I could get the owners on here to vouch for me. 02ws6 so true man while they're trying to get in there powerband Im on and down the road. IMO a ms4 needs a 4.56-4.30 with a 6 speed to be worth a hoot in a 346ci engine.

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by '02 WS6 View Post
    . When your cam's powerband begins around 3500 you're gonna suffer from a deadly race killing thing called cam lag.

    Ummm,,,that's why they make gears and loose converters.

    Running a larger cam also requires other things like more rear gear, higher stall converters etc... smaller cams are nice, and I also like what they have to offer, but the entire build would be completely different surrounding that cam. If you have a cam that doesn't make power until 4,000 rpm, then you need the gears and a converter that keeps it at or above that range,,,so the weak power it makes below 4,000 doesn't really matter, because racing the car, you'll never see it. It's a trade off however for low speed drivability cruising around town. Depends on what you are willing to put up with. Doesn't necessarily mean the smaller cams are better.

    I've run alot of these larger cams on the streets for many years. To make the cars really happy, 4.56 gears or more are needed, and you can't be afraid to spin it,,,that's where they make power. It's how we did it back in the day and the concept really hasn't changed.

    Alot of these LS cams people want to run nowadays like the 224 or 228 cams are actually rather small when compared to stock GM cams offered in the 60's gen 1 motors, and are actually more comparable to the lower horse motors offered back then. Alot of the higher HP Gen 1 motors of the 60's had duration numbers in the 240's range at .050 and we drove these daily back then, wasn't a big deal, easy on the valvetrain, very streetable, and fun to spin rpms with.

  6. #66
    Member jb3golf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Ummm,,,that's why they make gears and loose converters.

    Running a larger cam also requires other things like more rear gear, higher stall converters etc... smaller cams are nice, and I also like what they have to offer, but the entire build would be completely different surrounding that cam. If you have a cam that doesn't make power until 4,000 rpm, then you need the gears and a converter that keeps it at or above that range,,,so the weak power it makes below 4,000 doesn't really matter, because racing the car, you'll never see it. It's a trade off however for low speed drivability cruising around town. Depends on what you are willing to put up with. Doesn't necessarily mean the smaller cams are better.

    I've run alot of these larger cams on the streets for many years. To make the cars really happy, 4.56 gears or more are needed, and you can't be afraid to spin it,,,that's where they make power. It's how we did it back in the day and the concept really hasn't changed.



    Alot of these LS cams people want to run nowadays like the 224 or 228 cams are actually rather small when compared to stock GM cams offered in the 60's gen 1 motors, and are actually more comparable to the lower horse motors offered back then. Alot of the higher HP Gen 1 motors of the 60's had duration numbers in the 240's range at .050 and we drove these daily back then, wasn't a big deal, easy on the valvetrain, very streetable, and fun to spin rpms with.


    Interesting write up here.......I didn't realize 50 years ago they were running 240 ish cam durations. Wow! In any case, as you and so many of us have said, it's all in educating ourselves and making the adjustments necessaryto make our cam choice work best for what we desire........

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    Member jb3golf's Avatar
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    I would also add that it really depends on convenience and how deep our pockets are. Let's face it; If I can buy a 224R or 228R cam with an M6, and not have to make too many adjustments other than the tune and supporting mods, then why not??? With these excellent "streetable" cams you don't have to change your rear end gears or make too many other adjustments that add major $'s to the project. The power is there immediately throughout the rpm range.

    As Firebird Jones & Mr. Luos have said, the bigger the cam, the more additional adjustments one would have to make to make it useable and bulletproof on the street. BTW nothing wrong with this if you have the extra dough to dish out........

  8. #68
    LSX whore allbaugh_04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by '02 WS6 View Post
    No vid needed...I can vouch for his claim as well as my own when I was running Torqer 2 cam only I slapped around an MS3 Formy. Avg power throughout the curve is what wins races. When your cam's powerband begins around 3500 you're gonna suffer from a deadly race killing thing called cam lag. The smaller cams do not have this symptom as they are usually in the powerband around 25-2600. If an MS3/4 owner tells you they don't have it they're full of it. My Tv2 had slight lag from 2400-2800..but is still better than it being sloppy until almost 4k.
    I'd love to see this so called cam lag with my converter flashing to 4k.

    Jeez, this reminds me of the thread when people were telling me 1 7/8 headers will make you lose power.

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    Slow'er'Ass Mr. Luos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allbaugh_04 View Post
    I'd love to see this so called cam lag with my converter flashing to 4k.
    See....that is part of being set-up for the large cam.

    For whatever reason, people think I hate on the big cams. I don't.
    I hate when people get it thinking it is the end all because it dyno's high but then leave in the stock gears and don't beef anything up.


    I have a fairly large cam. Has plenty of power down low, but really comes on at 4200.

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    blah '02 WS6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allbaugh_04 View Post
    I'd love to see this so called cam lag with my converter flashing to 4k.
    Do you run killer times at the track? 4k is redonkulous for a "street" stall, but mind you very good as a track stall. I was veering towards the "street" as the main idea of my statings.

    the big vs small debate always goes this way. The little guys chime in with avg power, mpgs, and driveability and the big guys chime in with stall size, gears, and rwhp. Cam are like the LS1 cock pump....and unfortunately there are those (not pointing to you) that feel a massive cam puts them in company with John Holmes. With cam talks comes the phrase "Dif'rent strokes fo' dif'rent fo'kes"

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by '02 WS6 View Post
    Do you run killer times at the track? 4k is redonkulous for a "street" stall, but mind you very good as a track stall. I was veering towards the "street" as the main idea of my statings.

    the big vs small debate always goes this way. The little guys chime in with avg power, mpgs, and driveability and the big guys chime in with stall size, gears, and rwhp. Cam are like the LS1 cock pump....and unfortunately there are those (not pointing to you) that feel a massive cam puts them in company with John Holmes. With cam talks comes the phrase "Dif'rent strokes fo' dif'rent fo'kes"
    I've had everything from stock, to a 221/221 cam with a tight 3600 stall to a MS4 with a loose 4000 stall. The MS4 and bigger converter runs better EVERYWHERE than the small cam did. My current rated 4000rpm stall behaves more like a 4400, and flashes to 5100-5200rpm. Behind a 7000rpm engine, it works GREAT on the street. Drives just a nice as the mild setup did.

  12. #72
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by '02 WS6 View Post
    Do you run killer times at the track? 4k is redonkulous for a "street" stall, but mind you very good as a track stall. I was veering towards the "street" as the main idea of my statings.

    the big vs small debate always goes this way. The little guys chime in with avg power, mpgs, and driveability and the big guys chime in with stall size, gears, and rwhp. Cam are like the LS1 cock pump....and unfortunately there are those (not pointing to you) that feel a massive cam puts them in company with John Holmes. With cam talks comes the phrase "Dif'rent strokes fo' dif'rent fo'kes"
    It all depends on what you want out of the car and what you feel is tollerable. 4,000 isn't that bad of a stall on the street to most people. If the converter is built right in the first place they will drive around rather tight but "FLASH" to that general stall rating depending on many variables.
    I see more of the mild setups with the younger generation who grew up in the overdrive world. They can't grasp us old fogies driving 4.56 gears on the street without any assistance of an overdrive. Funny though, these were considered daily drivers back then. Different generation now.

    Since I come from the old school way of things, I tend to not mind stiff rear gears and loose converters. My chevelle runs a Coan converter that is rated as a 3600 stall, in a 400 turbo (no overdrive and non lockup) but it flashes closer to 4,000. I run 4.10 gears in this car as well. It is extremely docile on the street. I drive it everywhere (just took my boy to school in it and will take it to lunch later today) And ya it has a 250+ at .050 cam in it. No lack of low end either, yanks the wheels to 1.5 60 foot times.
    It's all in the total package. I also have a couple of classic cars here that make good low end and run very little gear at all, I also find them a pleasure to drive.

    I can also appreciate both of our 4th gens with their overdrives and cadillac style street manors. I guess what I'm saying is there is no real advantage to any of these combinations in my eyes. I find them all fun to drive. I don't hate on any of them, but I do find it funny with some people who are "one" sided and think it's the best thing out there.
    Last edited by Firebirdjones; 10-07-2010 at 09:00 AM.

  13. #73
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jb3golf View Post
    Interesting write up here.......I didn't realize 50 years ago they were running 240 ish cam durations. Wow! In any case, as you and so many of us have said, it's all in educating ourselves and making the adjustments necessaryto make our cam choice work best for what we desire........
    For comparison I'll simply use some of the hotter engines as an example.

    Anyone remember the little DZ 302's from 67-69? That little motor used a 254/254 dur at .050 with a 114 lsa. These cars were very nice to drive on the street and loved rpm. I found them to be very peppy, with some gear they ran very good.

    Later when the 1970 LT1 350 came out, one of the most reveared engines of it's time and ranks near the top as one of the best SBC's,,,,also used this 254/254 cam that was in the DZ. Late in 1970 and for the rest of it's production through 1972 GM used a tamer 242/254 dur at .050 cam (if you want to call it tame). These were all of the solid lifter variety, and back then just as now, they drive quite nicely on the street. I've owned both versions of these engines, and currently have one now. Very nice little motors.

    On the other end of the spectrum, remember the famous LS6 454's of 1970?? They used the same cam GM had been using since 1966 in the high horse solid lifter 427's through 1969. 242/242 at .050 also on a 114 lsa.
    The other manufactures also used large cams like this. Chrysler used alot of duration in their street hemis, especially from 65-68 when they were solid cams, then went to hydraulic in 69-71. Even Buick and Ford did the same things.
    These were daily driver cars for most people back then. Funny how the outlook changes now on stuff like this.

  14. #74
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jb3golf View Post
    I would also add that it really depends on convenience and how deep our pockets are. Let's face it; If I can buy a 224R or 228R cam with an M6, and not have to make too many adjustments other than the tune and supporting mods, then why not??? With these excellent "streetable" cams you don't have to change your rear end gears or make too many other adjustments that add major $'s to the project. The power is there immediately throughout the rpm range.

    As Firebird Jones & Mr. Luos have said, the bigger the cam, the more additional adjustments one would have to make to make it useable and bulletproof on the street. BTW nothing wrong with this if you have the extra dough to dish out........

    I agree 100%. Those milder cams you mention are great for low and mid range power and they don't require too much fidling to make work. As a matter of fact I have an even milder cam than that in my wifes 6 speed LS1. It's nice to lug the motor around town at 800 rpms without chugging so it works nicely for her. Honestly I probably won't go much bigger than that in my own 4th gen either. I save the radical stuff for the classic cars.

  15. #75
    LSX whore allbaugh_04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by '02 WS6 View Post
    Do you run killer times at the track? 4k is redonkulous for a "street" stall, but mind you very good as a track stall. I was veering towards the "street" as the main idea of my statings.

    the big vs small debate always goes this way. The little guys chime in with avg power, mpgs, and driveability and the big guys chime in with stall size, gears, and rwhp. Cam are like the LS1 cock pump....and unfortunately there are those (not pointing to you) that feel a massive cam puts them in company with John Holmes. With cam talks comes the phrase "Dif'rent strokes fo' dif'rent fo'kes"
    I only drive it on the street and 4k is fine. It still manages 23-25mpg on the highway.

    I managed 336rwhp with my 230/230 cam. Figured I'd brag that up.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    For comparison I'll simply use some of the hotter engines as an example.

    Anyone remember the little DZ 302's from 67-69? That little motor used a 254/254 dur at .050 with a 114 lsa. These cars were very nice to drive on the street and loved rpm. I found them to be very peppy, with some gear they ran very good.

    Later when the 1970 LT1 350 came out, one of the most reveared engines of it's time and ranks near the top as one of the best SBC's,,,,also used this 254/254 cam that was in the DZ. Late in 1970 and for the rest of it's production through 1972 GM used a tamer 242/254 dur at .050 cam (if you want to call it tame). These were all of the solid lifter variety, and back then just as now, they drive quite nicely on the street. I've owned both versions of these engines, and currently have one now. Very nice little motors.

    On the other end of the spectrum, remember the famous LS6 454's of 1970?? They used the same cam GM had been using since 1966 in the high horse solid lifter 427's through 1969. 242/242 at .050 also on a 114 lsa.
    The other manufactures also used large cams like this. Chrysler used alot of duration in their street hemis, especially from 65-68 when they were solid cams, then went to hydraulic in 69-71. Even Buick and Ford did the same things.
    These were daily driver cars for most people back then. Funny how the outlook changes now on stuff like this.
    You simply CANNOT compare those old cams to what's currently offered today. While the .050" durations seem huge, the cam is still relatively small. They used lazy profiles and a lobe design that nobody in their right mind would use today. The .006" and .050" were practically identical, but right after that lift the ramp almost flatlined to a tame profile. If you were to compare a upper 220 duration LS1 cam to one of those old cams using a Cam Doctor report, you would find the current (current as in the last 25+ years ) lobes to be "larger" and much more aggressive.

    The 30-30 is old, old tech. The 30-30 is realistically a ~225 duration cam, and the 097 and ~220 cam.
    Last edited by Marc 85Z28; 10-07-2010 at 06:47 PM.

  17. #77
    Junior Member 1979rs/z28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allbaugh_04 View Post
    I only drive it on the street and 4k is fine. It still manages 23-25mpg on the highway.

    I managed 336rwhp with my 230/230 cam. Figured I'd brag that up.
    Can vouch for you on the 4k stall, my buddy had cam only ms4/fast92/yankss4000/12 bolt with 3.73s and it didnt drive bad at all. It only got like 15mpg mixed driving though

    On a serious note his car ran 11.4's at 119 at the track and I'm sure he would have owned me there as my best is a 12.3 @ 117 but he had a 1.5 60 foot vs my 2.1 (6 speed FTL in that situation) I thought he'd rape me on the street going by time but from any roll I'd get him by a car unless it was a slow roll where he'd get me by a car or so. I'd consider his setup more of a track setup because it was not nearly as comfy as my baby cam!

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    I wish some one would do a drag strip comparison of all the TSP cams with a average car.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jb3golf View Post
    Did your cam turn out to be streetable to you??
    Just installed it last week....no it is not streetable right now,but I'm still waiting to get it dyno tuned on Oct. 15th.

    A couple nights ago I had the PCM baseline tuned and put in 42 lbs injectors just so I could drive it home from where I work.

    So jury is still out until it's dyno tuned and dialed in on whether or not it's streetable to me.

    I do think it is all a matter of opinion and what people can deal with as to if an MS4 cam is streetable or not.

  20. #80
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc 85Z28 View Post
    You simply CANNOT compare those old cams to what's currently offered today. While the .050" durations seem huge, the cam is still relatively small. They used lazy profiles and a lobe design that nobody in their right mind would use today. The .006" and .050" were practically identical, but right after that lift the ramp almost flatlined to a tame profile. If you were to compare a upper 220 duration LS1 cam to one of those old cams using a Cam Doctor report, you would find the current (current as in the last 25+ years ) lobes to be "larger" and much more aggressive.

    The 30-30 is old, old tech. The 30-30 is realistically a ~225 duration cam, and the 097 and ~220 cam.

    Sure you can,,,the lobe profiles affect the lift as well, which as we all know everything is roller now, so that's thrown out the window. But what affects how a cam acts in an engine is .050 duration numbers and lobe seperation and how it's installed (intake centerline). That's what gives the camshafts there sound or lope that so many people are attracted to. The sound has nothing to do with the lift.

    The 30/30 cam measures 254 at .050,,,,not 225 as you stated. I know for a fact, I have one of these in a DZ 302 and it does in fact come up very close to it's advertised numbers when I degreed it (give or take a couple degrees).

    I wasn't comparing the cams in the manor you seem to be implying. I was giving examples as to drivability and what we dealt with back in the day. If we could drive cams at 250+ duration at .050 with a stinkin carburator, then surely you guys can live with them in these fancy fuel injected cars.
    People get so excited over cams with 224 at .050 numbers,,,,wow.
    Last edited by Firebirdjones; 10-08-2010 at 06:42 PM.

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