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ms3 AND STOCK LS1's

This is a discussion on ms3 AND STOCK LS1's within the Internal Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Originally Posted by MudStainKILLA Yes there are other variables to take into effect but I honestly think that the driver ...

  1. #121
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MudStainKILLA View Post
    Yes there are other variables to take into effect but I honestly think that the driver is the biggest. Same driver same car with a cam swap on a best of three passes I think could give enough of an answer to this debate that it deserves. We all know the ms3 performs hands down. We also know that everyone has their own preference as to how their car is set up. And when it comes down to it until it is layed out that one is better than the other people are going to still defend their opinion. Probably even after the fact. Face it we are gearheads and proud of it!
    Yes I'd like to see it to. There is one problem with it,,,that others mentioned above. Can't do a cam swap in a few minutes. Probably a day goes by, and then the weather conditions as well as track conditions have changed.

    That is why I mentioned the correction factor, to put everything back on an even playing field. Making changes in a few minutes and comparing is one thing, but when days go by........

  2. #122
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady milkman View Post
    still with that ?
    I guess it's still bothering him

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    Senior Member INMY01TA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MudStainKILLA View Post
    Yes there are other variables to take into effect but I honestly think that the driver is the biggest. Same driver same car with a cam swap on a best of three passes I think could give enough of an answer to this debate that it deserves. We all know the ms3 performs hands down. We also know that everyone has their own preference as to how their car is set up. And when it comes down to it until it is layed out that one is better than the other people are going to still defend their opinion. Probably even after the fact. Face it we are gearheads and proud of it!
    What is there to debate? It's not opinion that a bigger cam like the MS3 will twist off a lower ET with higher mph than say a 224 cam. There are trade offs tho. Spring life, idle quality, emissions, surging issues, to name a few. All depends on your definition of streetable and what you can live with.

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    I don't sell out! blackSS01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady milkman View Post
    still with that ?

  5. #125
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INMY01TA View Post
    What is there to debate? It's not opinion that a bigger cam like the MS3 will twist off a lower ET with higher mph than say a 224 cam. There are trade offs tho. Spring life, idle quality, emissions, surging issues, to name a few. All depends on your definition of streetable and what you can live with.
    I wouldn't call it a debate. Why does everything have to be a debate around here.

    I think it would be a great "comparison". Mags do it all the time. Why not a cam comparison in a dedicated car. The last biggest comparison I remember was Hot Rod doing a crate motor shootout in the October 08 edition. 8 GM Performance Parts crate engines all swapped in and out of a dedicated car in 1 weekend. Who cared which one was the fastest, anyone could have figured that out before it started. But it sure gave alot of usefull information as to the performance potential of a crate engine, so people could make a wiser decision.

  6. #126
    Senior Member INMY01TA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    I wouldn't call it a debate. Why does everything have to be a debate around here.

    I think it would be a great "comparison". Mags do it all the time. Why not a cam comparison in a dedicated car. The last biggest comparison I remember was Hot Rod doing a crate motor shootout in the October 08 edition. 8 GM Performance Parts crate engines all swapped in and out of a dedicated car in 1 weekend. Who cared which one was the fastest, anyone could have figured that out before it started. But it sure gave alot of usefull information as to the performance potential of a crate engine, so people could make a wiser decision.
    Mudstainkilla called this a debate, not me. Hmm, someone with the QTP 2 piece timing cover could prolly swap a cam in under an hour....

  7. #127
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INMY01TA View Post
    Mudstainkilla called this a debate, not me. Hmm, someone with the QTP 2 piece timing cover could prolly swap a cam in under an hour....
    Ah, gotcha

    Ya I was thinking the same thing. With the car setup to accept multiple cam swaps easily, and a group of guys working on it, I think it's doable.
    Someone would have to be there with a laptop to flash in some tuning. With a wideband it wouldn't take long to dial in a decent WOT AFR.

    I guess the question now could be, should it be an auto for consistency, or a 6 speed to simplify the swaps. I say that because with each camshaft, depending on the grind, different converters might be necessary.

    When Hot Rod did the crate engine comparison, they also swapped converters and rear gears with each engine to suit the engines needs best.

    I guess there are alot of things to work out but it sure sounds like a good time to me.

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    Member MudStainKILLA's Avatar
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    Lol ya I did call it a debate. When opposing opinions state supporting facts and or evidence to support that's a debate. Granted sometimes it true and sometimes its not. I do agree with you firebirdjones, As far as the cam goes I'm a fan of bigger cams hands down. As far as streetable or not I do believe it is in the eye of the driver as well. I'd just like to see it in a magazine. Think itd make a good informative piece seems how there are definitely two sides to the big cam "talk"

  9. #129
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MudStainKILLA View Post
    Lol ya I did call it a debate. When opposing opinions state supporting facts and or evidence to support that's a debate. Granted sometimes it true and sometimes its not. I do agree with you firebirdjones, As far as the cam goes I'm a fan of bigger cams hands down. As far as streetable or not I do believe it is in the eye of the driver as well. I'd just like to see it in a magazine. Think itd make a good informative piece seems how there are definitely two sides to the big cam "talk"
    Ya I know what you mean. I'd like to see it in a magazine with on track performance from each one.

    They have done this on the engine dyno with several cam manufactures before, but it didn't really do anything for me. I'd like to see it done in the car, with drivability, track performance, how it was to tune, etc... etc...because dyno numbers are one thing, but in some cases they won't coincide that well with how it performs at the track in real world conditions.

  10. #130
    215 heads,ms4cam,102 fast 2000ls1tranz's Avatar
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    i have the ms4 cam an i love it ...do u guys not look at rpm? were is it anytime ur racing? high right? and the bigger cams make it very useable power when ur powerband is where ur at in rpms while racing..why would u want ur power band were ur not hardly going to spend anytime in ..unless just driving around..the ms4 drive decent also its really not that bad...good tune makes the world of differents tho ..i dd mine with no problem..

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Not for the small cam he is running.

    You guys think a cam only car is automatically supposed to go 120+ mph in a full weight car????

    I got news for ya,,,,,,,,easier said than done. Just about every cam only LS1 I've ever seen at the track will run about 112 to 118 mph depending on the size and too many other variables. Bottom line though, 114 mph is nothing to sneeze at from a little motor only 346, cam only or not.
    You guys have been watching too many internet videos.
    You must be suffering from oxygen deprivation from the altitude. Around here, where I, as well as INMY01TA and the OP are bolt on cars run 110-114. Add even a small cam and some gears and high teens are the norm, full weight. Bigger cammed cars and the mild H/C cars run low 120s, with the aggressive H/C cars in the mid 120s, all full weight. This all assumes the car runs right, and isn't a pile of shit that doesn't work.

  12. #132
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc 85Z28 View Post
    You must be suffering from oxygen deprivation from the altitude. Around here, where I, as well as INMY01TA and the OP are bolt on cars run 110-114. Add even a small cam and some gears and high teens are the norm, full weight. Bigger cammed cars and the mild H/C cars run low 120s, with the aggressive H/C cars in the mid 120s, all full weight. This all assumes the car runs right, and isn't a pile of shit that doesn't work.
    Eh, we've been over that already. Only lived up in altitude for 2 years, but have raced near sea level all my life. Never seen any simple bolt on LS1 cars go 110-114 mph, and I've seen alot and had several of these cars myself. I've seen them leave the dyno and head for the track. Those that trapped in the low to mid teens or higher were making 380+ RWHP, and had at least a camshaft.
    Haven't seen a "bolt on" car make that kind of power or trap that high at stock weight. Maybe you guys should define BOLT ON's. Because in my book, if a backyard mechanic can't do it in the driveway in a few hours, it's not a bolt on. Once it requires special tools and knowledge, along with getting inside the motor, tranny or rearend, it's not simple anymore.

    Unless your at Atco in the middle of winter with negative DA numbers, I just don't see it.

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    Senior Member INMY01TA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Eh, we've been over that already. Only lived up in altitude for 2 years, but have raced near sea level all my life. Never seen any simple bolt on LS1 cars go 110-114 mph, and I've seen alot and had several of these cars myself. I've seen them leave the dyno and head for the track. Those that trapped in the low to mid teens or higher were making 380+ RWHP, and had at least a camshaft.
    Haven't seen a "bolt on" car make that kind of power or trap that high at stock weight. Maybe you guys should define BOLT ON's. Because in my book, if a backyard mechanic can't do it in the driveway in a few hours, it's not a bolt on. Once it requires special tools and knowledge, along with getting inside the motor, tranny or rearend, it's not simple anymore.

    Unless your at Atco in the middle of winter with negative DA numbers, I just don't see it.
    Haha, still hatin.

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INMY01TA View Post
    Haha, still hatin.
    Na, No hate here, just don't buy it, that's all. There are a few that can love on that all they want, and I'm okay with it. They are just wasting their time if they think they can convince me of it

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Maybe you guys should define BOLT ON's. Because in my book, if a backyard mechanic can't do it in the driveway in a few hours, it's not a bolt on. Once it requires special tools and knowledge, along with getting inside the motor, tranny or rearend, it's not simple anymore.
    Just the usual stuff. Lid, ported throttle body, pulley, headers and full exhaust. ~340rwhp. Some go with gears for the 6 speed crowd or a converter for the auto guys, but not always. That's it.

    Low-mid teens at 380rwhp? I went 119-120 at 380rwhp, 3720lbs.

  16. #136
    King 0f n00bz shady milkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc 85Z28 View Post
    Just the usual stuff. Lid, ported throttle body, pulley, headers and full exhaust. ~340rwhp. Some go with gears for the 6 speed crowd or a converter for the auto guys, but not always. That's it.

    Low-mid teens at 380rwhp? I went 119-120 at 380rwhp, 3720lbs.
    a stall or gears are not a bolt on in my book

  17. #137
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc 85Z28 View Post
    Just the usual stuff. Lid, ported throttle body, pulley, headers and full exhaust. ~340rwhp. Some go with gears for the 6 speed crowd or a converter for the auto guys, but not always. That's it.

    Low-mid teens at 380rwhp? I went 119-120 at 380rwhp, 3720lbs.
    Must have been a mustang dyno

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    King 0f n00bz shady milkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Must have been a mustang dyno
    i thought mustang dynos were more accurate and read lower than DJs

  19. #139
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady milkman View Post
    a stall or gears are not a bolt on in my book
    Exactly right Shady.

    Gears require a certain skill set to install, not to mention magnetic base dial indicator and pinion depth gauges,,,,not something the average guy has,,,so as far as I'm concerned this isn't a bolt on.

    Converters,,,it's questionable but I lean towards no. For the average person pulling the transmission is intimidating, and isn't something everyone can do anyway.

    Sticking to the free mods, and simple external bolt on stuff like headers, exhaust, lids, throttle bodies,,,,,that's what constitutes a bolt on car.
    Show me one that makes enough HP to trap mid teens with those bolts ons at stock weight. Highly unlikely.

  20. #140
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady milkman View Post
    i thought mustang dynos were more accurate and read lower than DJs
    Well yes and no. It can be debated, but the most important thing when it comes to dyno's is to use the same one for tuning with the same operator, all the time for consistent results to document changes.
    It's a great tuning tool. And it's very easy to compute a pretty accurate ET/MPH from rear wheel HP numbers depending on the weight of the car and weather conditions of course.
    The one we used could consistently produce 11 second ET's at 112-115 mph when making around 380 rwhp or more in a 3,600 lbs. car.

    That same car would make 350-360 on a mustang dyno at another shop.

    But it's definately not something a simple LS1 bolt on car makes. Considering when stock they hit ~300-320 on average, (with a happy dyno) and are lucky to trap 105-108 mph. Some don't even do that.

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