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LSX 454 Build Sheet and Opinions

This is a discussion on LSX 454 Build Sheet and Opinions within the Internal Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Wise man! If you are in no hurry, you'll save some $. I liked the idea of the lsx 454 ...

  1. #21
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    Wise man! If you are in no hurry, you'll save some $. I liked the idea of the lsx 454 myself and thought that was the direction I'd go. Between the economy and reality/cost. I had to give up that idea, and some advice from others. I found there was much cheaper ways to get to the 850hp I was shooting for at the time. It seems the LSX block setup is great for max effort setups (going into the 9's and lower) but there are alot cheaper ways to get where you want to go.

    Another idea is one of the new 6.2 engines (seeing them on ebay for $8500 which still is'nt cheap) cammed their good for 530hp+ and one of the new tvs blowers adding 200hp at 10.5 psi. I'm guessing that would rival the price of the lsx setup too.

    If you're patient, you'll probably find a deal on an engine someone built with forged parts that will drop right in, use your existing blower, and make it all work for $15k with $5k left for suspension parts. Just do the research on several boards for the supporting fuel requirements, and with shops that do this stuff on a regular basis.

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    If your interested, I know a guy with a 402 Iron block. Howard Billet rods, Callies dragon slayer crank, diamond forged -22 dish pistons with just a few hundred miles on the shortblock. Hes asking 3500. I just got permantely Layed off yesterday, so I am forced to put my FI plans on hold. Its in SE MI, I dont know what shipping would be, but it would be less then your shortblock costs by thousands. Ill give you the thread in a PM if you think your interested. I just had to call and tell him the bad news, as I was on my way to pick it up in a week
    370 CI - Twin 6766 Turbo - Jakes stage 5 4L80E - MWC 9" - Holley Dominator

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  3. #23
    Senior Member NeeD4SpeeD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbs1 View Post
    Wise man! If you are in no hurry, you'll save some $. I liked the idea of the lsx 454 myself and thought that was the direction I'd go. Between the economy and reality/cost. I had to give up that idea, and some advice from others. I found there was much cheaper ways to get to the 850hp I was shooting for at the time. It seems the LSX block setup is great for max effort setups (going into the 9's and lower) but there are alot cheaper ways to get where you want to go.

    Another idea is one of the new 6.2 engines (seeing them on ebay for $8500 which still is'nt cheap) cammed their good for 530hp+ and one of the new tvs blowers adding 200hp at 10.5 psi. I'm guessing that would rival the price of the lsx setup too.

    If you're patient, you'll probably find a deal on an engine someone built with forged parts that will drop right in, use your existing blower, and make it all work for $15k with $5k left for suspension parts. Just do the research on several boards for the supporting fuel requirements, and with shops that do this stuff on a regular basis.
    Thx pal. yea i would rather wait the time and save up some money then rush it, waste all kinds of money just to have it when i really can wait.

    I was wishing to be able to run 9s all day and still have the car in DD status. I know that will take more planning and different parts but i would still like the car to be an all around vehicle not just a track car...

    I'm going to take a look into the other blocks and see if i can get the power i want out of it without spending an arm and a leg.

    But realistically, for the LSX 454 with all the forged internals, good crank, valveterrain etc. does 10K sound realistic? and in sure i could pick up something else for almost half that and still do what i want to. I will need to read around a bit more before jumping into it.

  4. #24
    Senior Member NeeD4SpeeD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hi-Po View Post
    If your interested, I know a guy with a 402 Iron block. Howard Billet rods, Callies dragon slayer crank, diamond forged -22 dish pistons with just a few hundred miles on the shortblock. Hes asking 3500. I just got permantely Layed off yesterday, so I am forced to put my FI plans on hold. Its in SE MI, I dont know what shipping would be, but it would be less then your shortblock costs by thousands. Ill give you the thread in a PM if you think your interested. I just had to call and tell him the bad news, as I was on my way to pick it up in a week
    Sorry to hear that pal... This economy is killing all of us.... I wish for you to get back on your feet soon!

    As for the 402, if you could send me the build sheet of whats in the motor exactly so i can price compare it with the LSX and see the difference i think it will help me make my choise.

    Also, with the iron 402 and iron 454 how much RWHP you think the 402 can hold and will it be reliable in getting low 10s possible 9s and still be streetable?

    I know that by doing what im looking to do will be EXTREMELY costly, but if i can build it showly over time and with the right guidence so i dont waste unecessary money i think i'll be good!

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbs1 View Post
    Another idea is one of the new 6.2 engines (seeing them on ebay for $8500 which still is'nt cheap) cammed their good for 530hp+ and one of the new tvs blowers adding 200hp at 10.5 psi. I'm guessing that would rival the price of the lsx setup too.
    It's good that i have the F1 already because it's all paid for so i wont have to shell out any extra money for it and i know the F1 is good for some wicked HP. How much is the 7.0L 427 vette motor bare you think? I know it's not iron but wondering if the price-displacement would be a better bang for the buck then the 402/408 iron blocks?

    Although running 800-900hp through an aluminum block would creep me out a bit i think i just answered my own question lol

  6. #26
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    Ok, just got off the phone with TSP and they said they would give me the 454LSX with all forged internals (and good named brands too) install the pistons, rods, crank, with ARP main cap bolts and throw in an installed camshaft (IF i bought it from them) for free all for $6,705.00 plus i believe $400 for frieght shipping how does this sound??

  7. #27
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    7k for a 454 shortblock ..sounds good to me bud.

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    might be worth noting..that gm has been working on some heads specifically for the 454..so you might want to hold out for them..the ls7 is nice..but those heads can barely handle the 427

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady milkman View Post
    7k for a 454 shortblock ..sounds good to me bud.
    NICE! That's what i like to hear! I thought the price sounded right...Might actually jump for it! Need to look into other options before i go for it but thank u for the opinion!

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady milkman View Post
    might be worth noting..that gm has been working on some heads specifically for the 454..so you might want to hold out for them..the ls7 is nice..but those heads can barely handle the 427
    I heard about those heads....They made an appearence in GM high performance and showed good results... Depends on the price and flow numbers that are put out when it's actually dynoed.

    Other then that, my options were the TrickFlow 245cc or the PRC 265cc

  11. #31
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    anytime..the biggest hurdle/problem with the 454s..are their top end..or lack of....for a intake look for a custom made/tuned intake..and be prepaired for a bad ass fuel delivery system..she will be hungry.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeeD4SpeeD View Post
    I heard about those heads....They made an appearence in GM high performance and showed good results... Depends on the price and flow numbers that are put out when it's actually dynoed.

    Other then that, my options were the TrickFlow 245cc or the PRC 265cc
    im not a heads guru by any means...but bigger ccs doesn't always mean better..with that being said however..a 215cc wont work for your system either i personally love TFS' and AFRs

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady milkman View Post
    im not a heads guru by any means...but bigger ccs doesn't always mean better..with that being said however..a 215cc wont work for your system either i personally love TFS' and AFRs
    LOL... Yea wasn't going off the CC's alone, was looking at flow numbers for intake and exhaust plus int and ext CC's also... Heard good things about PRC's and also about AFR's but they are a bit pricey and i've seen cheaper brands peform better with flow... Althought i agree with you, im by no means a head guru neither

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    Quote Originally Posted by shady milkman View Post
    anytime..the biggest hurdle/problem with the 454s..are their top end..or lack of....for a intake look for a custom made/tuned intake..and be prepaired for a bad ass fuel delivery system..she will be hungry.
    Yea, been hearing alot about needing a good solid fuel delivery system and i figured that much. That i really don't know anything about and will need to consult the minds of LS1 members and other techs to get the best for my application.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady milkman View Post
    anytime..the biggest hurdle/problem with the 454s..are their top end..or lack of....for a intake look for a custom made/tuned intake..and be prepaired for a bad ass fuel delivery system..she will be hungry.
    And for the intake was considering the FAST LSXr 102mm combo and have them ported out if i need more air...

  16. #36
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    The F1 is a blower with alot of power potential and can be hard on parts if the engine is not built to handle it or not matced to it. It will make WAAAAY more than 500RWHP. We are building daily driven car that make over 400RWHP on our conservative Mustang Dyno that are still stock displacement. I would think your goal can be reached without the blower. We are making 1300 at the crank with F1s at 360 cubes and running 8.0 timeslips in drag radial classes. The right engine combination will definately suprise you, blown or not.

    By the way, we have had drag only cars on our dyno put down 400RWHP and less and run 10.60-10.90 in the 1320. We have also seen cars that make really big numbers on other dynos and much less on ours.

  17. #37
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    Daily driver type cars will work better (usually) with a little higher cr and less boost, vs lowering the cr and running a bunch of boost.

    The price of the 454 sounded pretty good from this end.

    You are also prepared I assume for a required roll bar? I had a 6 point in my 67 bbc camaro with swing out bars, which made it just tolerable for daily driving. The requirements for quicker than 10.0 mean more bars and less driveability. I think that's the part where I'd think about the bird you have. Once you put the roll bar in, it's really not a street car anymore (imo).

    I would think that with half the $ you'll spend for the lsx.install/tune you could beef up the existing motor, use your existing sc and sandbag at the track most of the night to stay at 11.5. Then get someone you really want to beat for the last run of the evening and lay into it for high 10's. If you go frequently, that program won't last for long, but as a guy whose done it both ways I would NOT cage a car I really wanted to use alot on the street, and conversely, I would not expect to run regularly in the 10's let alone the 9's without the required safety equipment which if done regularly you won't get a choice on anyway.

    Once I finished up a very nice 69 I used the 67 almost exclusively for a track only car although it could be driven on the street. The novelty of a track car with track manners and a roll cage used regularly on the street gets old-fast.

    It is your car, but you could spend alot less to make it very fast for all venues (street-drag-road course) while saving a ton of $ and remaining a very usable street car. To me, once you've passed the capability to run low 11's you really should have a cage for safety, and at that point you are really running a track car, not a street car. Oh and by the way...I know you expect to have it till you die (which may speed up the process at 10's with no cage) but if you watch ebay you'll see the 1st gen camaros or firebirds that are nothing special going for $15k-$25k, with a similar car that may be equipped even nicer but sporting a roll bar-half that. That's the diff on resale from street car to "race car" which is what it would be considered once you cage it, which I know you'll want to do for safety's sake in the 10's.

    Sorry about the lengthy post. I've been down this road. Here is the long and short. You can save $15K using what you have and be a very fast car that will still have great street manners and resale value and one you totally enjoy driving everywhere. You will have something come up that you will need the other $15K for. Trust me-you really will.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by manyponies View Post
    The F1 is a blower with alot of power potential and can be hard on parts if the engine is not built to handle it or not matced to it. It will make WAAAAY more than 500RWHP. We are building daily driven car that make over 400RWHP on our conservative Mustang Dyno that are still stock displacement. I would think your goal can be reached without the blower. We are making 1300 at the crank with F1s at 360 cubes and running 8.0 timeslips in drag radial classes. The right engine combination will definately suprise you, blown or not.

    By the way, we have had drag only cars on our dyno put down 400RWHP and less and run 10.60-10.90 in the 1320. We have also seen cars that make really big numbers on other dynos and much less on ours.
    I know the F1 can make loads of HP which was one of the reasons why i bought so if i made less HP on the motor i could add the boost on the Blower with the supporting parts.

    Right now my car is putting down 451RWHP and 413RWTQ but is full race weight aside from the suspension mods i did so shave off a few pounds. It's fast but i think is does still have more and for the F1 i would like to get away from the aluminum block and stick with the iron block for reliability.

    I appriciate the opinions and these are what is going to help me formulate what im going to go with eventually!

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbs1 View Post
    Daily driver type cars will work better (usually) with a little higher cr and less boost, vs lowering the cr and running a bunch of boost.

    The price of the 454 sounded pretty good from this end.

    You are also prepared I assume for a required roll bar? I had a 6 point in my 67 bbc camaro with swing out bars, which made it just tolerable for daily driving. The requirements for quicker than 10.0 mean more bars and less driveability. I think that's the part where I'd think about the bird you have. Once you put the roll bar in, it's really not a street car anymore (imo).

    I would think that with half the $ you'll spend for the lsx.install/tune you could beef up the existing motor, use your existing sc and sandbag at the track most of the night to stay at 11.5. Then get someone you really want to beat for the last run of the evening and lay into it for high 10's. If you go frequently, that program won't last for long, but as a guy whose done it both ways I would NOT cage a car I really wanted to use alot on the street, and conversely, I would not expect to run regularly in the 10's let alone the 9's without the required safety equipment which if done regularly you won't get a choice on anyway.

    Once I finished up a very nice 69 I used the 67 almost exclusively for a track only car although it could be driven on the street. The novelty of a track car with track manners and a roll cage used regularly on the street gets old-fast.

    It is your car, but you could spend alot less to make it very fast for all venues (street-drag-road course) while saving a ton of $ and remaining a very usable street car. To me, once you've passed the capability to run low 11's you really should have a cage for safety, and at that point you are really running a track car, not a street car. Oh and by the way...I know you expect to have it till you die (which may speed up the process at 10's with no cage) but if you watch ebay you'll see the 1st gen camaros or firebirds that are nothing special going for $15k-$25k, with a similar car that may be equipped even nicer but sporting a roll bar-half that. That's the diff on resale from street car to "race car" which is what it would be considered once you cage it, which I know you'll want to do for safety's sake in the 10's.

    Sorry about the lengthy post. I've been down this road. Here is the long and short. You can save $15K using what you have and be a very fast car that will still have great street manners and resale value and one you totally enjoy driving everywhere. You will have something come up that you will need the other $15K for. Trust me-you really will.
    I hear you about the roll bars/cage and i've been in a race car in the street with all the saftey features and it is kinds of a pain and a bit uncomfortible. And im BIG on saftey to boot! So i def wouldnt sacrifice any safety features for streetability.

    I was thinking about a bolt in roll cage which i can remove but i know its not NHRA legal unless its welded in 2 spots i believe. It would just be a pain IF i ever intend on selling it for any reason. I agree that 15-20K is a lot to spend on a motor but it would be a 1-3yr project and slowly (and correctly) done. So i'm not going to blow the money all at once, i would obtain all the parts over time and slowly assemble the block.

    I've done the whole sandbagging routine at the track because my car can cut high 10s so i could stay away from the cage for the time being until i can lay out my options and figure out what i can do and what i ultimately want to do with the car. i really do want to stay away from the cage/bars but i want the speed and enginuity that goes into making a good race car while keeping it as streetable as possible.

    I am glad you brought up the point about the cage verus the street or weekend driving. I could see it being an inconveince as well as hurting the re-sale value of the car but thats if i sell in which since i own it 100% im not sure i would. I like the uniqueness of it

    So i guess i will just have to think about it some more, and weigh the pros and cons to see what best suits me for what i want. Thank you for your insite as it prooved to be very helpful in allowing me to realize somethings i really never gave much thought too!

    Keep the opinions comming!!!

  20. #40
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    You are welcome! I wished I'd asked and received this type of info many thousands of dollars ago.

    I do just have to ask. If your car will already run in the 10's and it sounds like a very nice street car, why in the world don't you just find a beater (kind of) and pick up a cheap LQ4 iron block, forge it and throw the blower on it?
    I'm guessing if done a little at a time and keeping an eye out for deals on parts you could build a 9 second track car for that $20K.

    My son and I just bought an 02 SS camaro for $6000 that already had a few speed parts on it. With biz being slow we've decided to try and make do with what we have, with the exception of a 75 shot kit to run in the 11's.

    I would think that with something like that (this car is a little rough on the outside, but all mechanicals are good with only 37,000 miles) you could drop another $5k for suspension/rear end, use the existing engine to rebuild to lower cr and forged parts, and use that blower at 15 psi for 200 hp. If you strip it down to 3200lbs or so, and end up with close to 550hp at the wheels you'd be in the 9's, track only car to abuse at will, and save that valuable car for the street. You sound like you've been at it awhile and have a pretty good handle on what the costs would be and what you want to do. Good luck with your plans.

    ps If you just have to spend $10k right now I could use it for this ss go fast fund. I would send you pics. We could set up some kind of charity for a tax deduction or something???? I think you are a fine individual for having such a noble idea. pm me for mailing instructions. Thx!

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