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LS1 & $4k towards rebuild. what to do?

This is a discussion on LS1 & $4k towards rebuild. what to do? within the Internal Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; I know you're asking a lot of questions on this site.... But it sounds like to me you are taking ...

  1. #41
    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    I know you're asking a lot of questions on this site....

    But it sounds like to me you are taking people's opinions and advice on here and going with it...

    I would personally be reading up on all of this shit and fully understand what you're getting into before pulling the trigger on anything.

    I think you might be getting in way over your head. Not trying to be a dickhead either, just sending a friendly rationalizing

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    I know you're asking a lot of questions on this site....

    But it sounds like to me you are taking people's opinions and advice on here and going with it...

    I would personally be reading up on all of this shit and fully understand what you're getting into before pulling the trigger on anything.

    I think you might be getting in way over your head. Not trying to be a dickhead either, just sending a friendly rationalizing
    over my head...yeah i have been since i joined this site

    you being a dick head? no you advice is actually one of the most helpful on the site

  3. #43
    Senior Member redbird555's Avatar
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    2002 Camaro Z/28 Pewter

    Honestly u sound like you just want whats best for your car and I respect that as I'm about the same age and want the same thing however an ls7 build or an ls3 just seems to be a little much for you again not trying to offend. But to build a REAL ls7 is going to cost over 10k. The ls7 block is specific to itself and is very expensive expect to pay around 5k for a stock short block which doesnt include heads. Then add the special ls7 heads that are app specific and tack on atleast another 2k for a decent set. Then you will still need the intake for an ls7 along with all the wiring adaptors for one to make it work in an ls1 car like injector adaptors, knock sensor extensions, 58x to 24x conversion box, new TB and I'm sure theres a few other things. This is all of course for a stock ls7 which willl only dyno around 440hp to the wheels, if you want it built you would need atleast a couple grand more for worked over heads and cam. The ls3/l92 setup will be vastly cheaper but still requires all the wiring components and tuning of an ls7, along with a different intake,TB and heads than your current engine setup.
    Now what I'd recommended is that you either go the ls6 route and be happy which will be around 380hp to the wheels or go with a used low mile ls1 add a decent cam and maybe some slightly worked over heads and make anywhere from 415-460whp depending on how crazy you get. These setups will provide the least hassle to install being they use the same connectors as your current ls1 and while they will require a tune it will be easier than tuning an ls7/ls3 etc.

  4. #44
    Senior Member redbird555's Avatar
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    2002 Camaro Z/28 Pewter

    this thread may help you see what your getting into with an ls3 type swap vs just replacing your ls1 with a cammed one or ls6. http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/genera...02-f-body.html

  5. #45
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay37 View Post
    My bad man... I never have been good with using words and such haha. I meant to say if I was to biuld an LQ4 it would have to make a stock LS2 look like a punk... So after market LQ4 vs stock LS2, I fell in love with the 05 06 goats, that why I say that.
    No big deal, I guess I didn't understand how you were coming accross.

  6. #46
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BashamWS6 View Post
    Well I wanna stay aluminum so... Is there any heads better than those 12 degrees?
    Ls1camino says I'm caught up in the LS7 craze. I just wanna be different (which will probably be more expensive but still)
    LS7 heads are about as good as they get. But you can't run them on a small bore and they require the LS7 specific intake as far as I know.
    The only other heads out there I'm aware of that have less valve angle are from ETP. They are still a cathedral port head with a valve angle of 11 degrees. They run about $2500 give or take, ported and ready to go, and fit the LS1 bore and come as small as a 215cc intake runner, all you need for a little ls1. If you want something that works near as well but slightly cheaper, the AFR's stick with the stock 15 degree angles and flow pretty impressive numbers. Trickflow is another decent head, which has a 13.5 degree valve angle. Cheaper stuff depending on budget would probably point you towards ported LS6 heads or 5.3's from Texas speed.

    You really have to ask yourself, and answer honestly,,,just how fast do you want to go? I think an LS7 would simply be over the top for what might be your goals. Even a 402/408 would make more than enough power for 10 second timeslips and still be streetable.
    The LS6 crate motor, with bolt ons and a tune will make roughly 370 rwhp and will put a full weight 4th gen in the mid 12's at 112 mph or there about.
    You can also always take that crate motor later on as funds allow and do a cam swap, better heads etc... and make well over 400 rwhp. 11's aren't that hard at that point. I actually prefer the plug and play ease of an LS6 crate engine swap, a simple mail order tune, and you'll have a car that will hold it's own. How fast do you want to go?


    Quote Originally Posted by BashamWS6 View Post
    jay.
    Yeah i planned to stay ls1 for a few more years however i need a rebuild and quoted at 4800...i said holy fuck. So i figure get some bigger cubes and go from there.
    Does anyplace sell the 427 with the bigge bore and the 12 degree heads?
    Or would you suggest piecing together the 454, with some heads?
    $4800 to do a complete engine is pretty damn cheap. When you figure block work, new rotating assembly, all the head work, valve train, etc...
    Building engines isn't cheap, especially LS platforms. If this gave you sticker shock then that's all the more reason I'd suggest the LS6 crate motor.

    On the LS7 427, yes you can buy that in crate form, but I think it's around $15,000, and includes all the dry sump stuff. There are places that offer it in wet sump form as well. It's not a cheap engine by any means.
    Piecing together a 454, with good heads, all the swap parts needed etc...you will top $10k in a hurry very easily. This engine is also offered in crate form too, rated at 700 hp and stickers for $17k.

  7. #47
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    ok. this is all TSP...
    LS1 383-Aluminum-$4892
    LS1 402/408-Iron-$4488
    LS2 402-Aluminum-$5122*
    LS3 427-Aluminum-$5387*
    LS3 418-Aluminum-$5412*
    LS7 427-Alum/Iron-$7483/$6883*
    LS7 440-Alum/Iron-$7384/$6783*
    LSX 454-Cast Iron-$6833*
    ***needs and comes with conversion kit



    http://www.schwankeshortblocks.com/s...?i=1512&c=1216
    here a forged 427 GM LS7 Aluminum Gen IV Block
    4” Stroke 4340 Steel Crankshaft
    6.125 H Beam Connecting Rods
    Forged Pistons (-4cc Flat Top or -25cc Dish)
    1.5mm Power Pack Ring Set
    Clevite H Rod & Main Bearings
    Digitally Balanced Assembly
    Fully Assembled
    Oil Pump
    Conversion Kit
    Better Rings (Hell Fire)
    just under $7000

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by BashamWS6 View Post
    ok. this is all TSP...
    LS1 383-Aluminum-$4892
    LS1 402/408-Iron-$4488
    LS2 402-Aluminum-$5122*
    LS3 427-Aluminum-$5387*
    LS3 418-Aluminum-$5412*
    LS7 427-Alum/Iron-$7483/$6883*
    LS7 440-Alum/Iron-$7384/$6783*
    LSX 454-Cast Iron-$6833*
    ***needs and comes with conversion kit



    http://www.schwankeshortblocks.com/s...?i=1512&c=1216
    here a forged 427 GM LS7 Aluminum Gen IV Block
    4Ē Stroke 4340 Steel Crankshaft
    6.125 H Beam Connecting Rods
    Forged Pistons (-4cc Flat Top or -25cc Dish)
    1.5mm Power Pack Ring Set
    Clevite H Rod & Main Bearings
    Digitally Balanced Assembly
    Fully Assembled
    Oil Pump
    Conversion Kit
    Better Rings (Hell Fire)
    just under $7000
    donít forget the heads, cam, intake, fuel pump, injectors, misc. bolts and gaskets and a tune. Are you going to build the top end? Install in the car?

    Donít forget that you most likely wonít be able to go full throttle because your clutch wonít hold the power. Thatís going to be another 1k. I just want to make sure that your looking at everything and know that the 10k will go real quick when trying to build a big motor.
    1967 Camaro - LS1 T56 project
    2003 Z06 - Procharged and LTs
    2001 Honda Civic EX - DD
    2005 Kawaski KFX400
    2000 Camaro SS m6 - 523rwhp 468rwtq - (Sold)

  9. #49
    Senior Member redbird555's Avatar
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    Refer back to my last post with the link just so u kno exactly what your getting into. Those engines you listed look like short blocks so you'll still need heads, cam,valve train and intake which is almost half the price of the motor itself depending on what set of heads and intake u want. It doesnt make a whole lot of sense to have a badass shortblock just to choke it with a mediocre top end. You could go the otyher routes I suggested or i just thought of this, http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/En...1224&engCat=ls its about 5800 shipped out however it comes ready to run. It has the intake, heads, coils, injectors etc the only things you would need are the adapter harnesses necessary for any GEN IV engine swap plus it has a gm warranty and with bolt ons you should be around 450rwhp.

  10. #50
    Senior Member redbird555's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by youngrigo View Post
    donít forget the heads, cam, intake, fuel pump, injectors, misc. bolts and gaskets and a tune. Are you going to build the top end? Install in the car?

    Donít forget that you most likely wonít be able to go full throttle because your clutch wonít hold the power. Thatís going to be another 1k. I just want to make sure that your looking at everything and know that the 10k will go real quick when trying to build a big motor.
    He also brings up a valid point I know you said you will worry about the rear later and suspension thats fine the new engine will roast tires so the rear will be ok... for now. However the t56 and clutch as he said WILL NOT the t56 is rated around 450 rwtq which will be well under the limit of any professionally build engine... just more food for thought

  11. #51
    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    For any "correct" car build you will be throwing anywhere from 15-20K into the car...or more, depending on what brand of products you go with.

    Then once you get all of that power and are able to plant it to the ground, you better be a damn good driver so you don't throw 20K into a wall...

  12. #52
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BashamWS6 View Post
    ok. this is all TSP...
    LS1 383-Aluminum-$4892
    LS1 402/408-Iron-$4488
    LS2 402-Aluminum-$5122*
    LS3 427-Aluminum-$5387*
    LS3 418-Aluminum-$5412*
    LS7 427-Alum/Iron-$7483/$6883*
    LS7 440-Alum/Iron-$7384/$6783*
    LSX 454-Cast Iron-$6833*
    ***needs and comes with conversion kit



    http://www.schwankeshortblocks.com/s...?i=1512&c=1216
    here a forged 427 GM LS7 Aluminum Gen IV Block
    4Ē Stroke 4340 Steel Crankshaft
    6.125 H Beam Connecting Rods
    Forged Pistons (-4cc Flat Top or -25cc Dish)
    1.5mm Power Pack Ring Set
    Clevite H Rod & Main Bearings
    Digitally Balanced Assembly
    Fully Assembled
    Oil Pump
    Conversion Kit
    Better Rings (Hell Fire)
    just under $7000
    Quote Originally Posted by youngrigo View Post
    donít forget the heads, cam, intake, fuel pump, injectors, misc. bolts and gaskets and a tune. Are you going to build the top end? Install in the car?

    Donít forget that you most likely wonít be able to go full throttle because your clutch wonít hold the power. Thatís going to be another 1k. I just want to make sure that your looking at everything and know that the 10k will go real quick when trying to build a big motor.
    This is true, and it doesn't even include a $2500 rearend either. Redbird brings up another point. A stock T56 isn't all that great and needs some internal beefing to be durable.

    You still really haven't answered some of the most critical questions I mentioned in a previous post.

    How fast do you really want to go, an honest goal? Do you have a budget to support that goal?
    No one here can really suggest anything concrete without a set goal in mind.

  13. #53
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    an honest goal.
    around 500 HP
    preferably without a cam
    i wont be pushing this hard until i get the tranny and rear to hold it
    (like now i cant push my engine hard because its on the verge of going out)
    i do have self control...i wont be a complete dumbass
    Last edited by BashamWS6; 01-04-2011 at 10:55 AM.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by BashamWS6 View Post
    an honest goal.
    around 500 HP
    preferably without a cam
    i wont be pushing this hard until i get the tranny and rear to hold it
    (like now i cant push my engine hard because its on the verge of going out)
    i do have self control...i wont be a complete dumbass
    Im gonna assume your talking about 500rwhp?

    But your going to need a cam to get that power, your not going to do it with your stock cam.

    Your gonna need a nice size cam. I would personally look into going to be a 402 or 408.

  15. #55
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    Without a cam, the car will not run very well...

  16. #56
    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    Basham - I think you answered this already, but have you ever been behind the wheel of a car that pushes over 400rwhp? 450rwhp? 450rwhp is no joke. You will need to relearn how to drive, especially without a proper suspension and tires.

    Having that kind of power without any supporting modifications is going to be dangerous to drive with someone behind the wheel with no experience driving with that much power.

    The first time you shift it hard that ass end is going to come out sideways on you, etc...

  17. #57
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    If you want to do 500 rwhp without a camshaft, you'll have to start looking at power adders like procharger and the like.

    Stock LS1's get pretty darn close to those numbers with a procharger and very mild boost, and do it reliably.

    Without a lumpy camshaft in the works, you could do the crate LS6 motor and set it up with a procharger and mild boost.
    Or build a 402/408 with forged goodies, a smooth running wide LSA cam, then turn the whick up higher and make stupid power.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    Basham - I think you answered this already, but have you ever been behind the wheel of a car that pushes over 400rwhp? 450rwhp? 450rwhp is no joke. You will need to relearn how to drive, especially without a proper suspension and tires.

    Having that kind of power without any supporting modifications is going to be dangerous to drive with someone behind the wheel with no experience driving with that much power.

    The first time you shift it hard that ass end is going to come out sideways on you, etc...
    +1

    But to answer your question your going to need something like the link below

    http://texas-speed.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=44&catid=28

    Then depending on your options prices go up from there! Thats pretty much a plug and play set up with the exeption or the conversion kit.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    If you want to do 500 rwhp without a camshaft, you'll have to start looking at power adders like procharger and the like.

    Stock LS1's get pretty darn close to those numbers with a procharger and very mild boost, and do it reliably. Without a lumpy camshaft in the works, you could do the crate LS6 motor and set it up with a procharger and mild boost.
    Or build a 402/408 with forged goodies, a smooth running wide LSA cam, then turn the whick up higher and make stupid power.
    Stock LS1 with 02+LS6 cam and ls6 intake on 9lb on the procharger got me 523rwhp and 468tq

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    Dahmer Powertrain Inc. in lees Summit mo sells berand new GM LS6 long blocks for $3400.00 deliverd ask for Bob

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