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The limit of street-ability

This is a discussion on The limit of street-ability within the Internal Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; People over the years have asked many many times about "is this combo streetable". I was never entirely sure what ...

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    The limit of street-ability

    People over the years have asked many many times about "is this combo streetable". I was never entirely sure what they meant until the other day.

    For a few years now my car has been at 400/400 rwhp/rwtq due mainly to my 234/236 cam. On a cold day, it needed to warm up or it really wouldn't get above 2000 rpm without starting to sputter a bit. Ok, no problem I lived in a little development anyway, so I could baby it out of the development, and by the time I got to a "real" road it was warmed up - or I'd just have to let it idle for a few minutes before pulling out.

    All of this was on a stock clutch.

    Well this summer the stocker was barely holding together so I went ahead and upgraded the clutch. Ram Stage 3 or 4, I don't remember, but its a properly grippy SOB - 750 ftlbs of clamping force. Giddy up. It was like I bought a whole new car. I could go WOT in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd and the clutch had more grip than my tires for the first time in probably a year.

    Well, now its winter time. As it turns out, my car is on that knifes edge of what is and isn't streetable, and I'm leaning toward saying "nope - not a street car anymore".

    Now in addition to needing to warm the engine up - the clutch needs to warm up. Problem is, that only happens from driving - and takes longer for the clutch to heat up than the engine. So now, with my big cam, on cold tires and a cold clutch every intersection is a workout for the traction control, and because the clutch has 0 slip to it, short shifting doesn't really work either. Oh, and I had to drive in the rain the other day... what an adventure.

    So if you're wondering where the border between streetable and not is... well, get a smaller cam, or a less aggressive clutch than I have unless the only time you ever want to drive your car is on sunny days that are 70+ degrees.

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    I have drove a T-rex cam(242/248), 4.56s, on a 6spd with Spec 3+ clutch and I never had any problems. And I hate to tell you this, but MOST ls1 cars out there are over your 400rwhp and DD there cars every day and some in the winter. The reason you may be having is due to your tune.

    All engines need to warm up, I even let my TBSS warm up. Any decent hp car on a cold day with street tires and stick car will have problem with traction.

    What gears do you have?

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    Second gear start out...

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    Quote Originally Posted by scott5 View Post
    I have drove a T-rex cam(242/248), 4.56s, on a 6spd with Spec 3+ clutch and I never had any problems. And I hate to tell you this, but MOST ls1 cars out there are over your 400rwhp and DD there cars every day and some in the winter. The reason you may be having is due to your tune.

    All engines need to warm up, I even let my TBSS warm up. Any decent hp car on a cold day with street tires and stick car will have problem with traction.

    What gears do you have?
    Stock rear. The fact that you're 4.56 makes a world of difference I'm guessing. Relatively speaking, your rear is bigger than mine by a much bigger margin than your cam is - so you're going to have better off idle tq at the wheels. I'm guessing that neither of our cars were dyno'd with the logging starting at 1200 rpm, and while I could produce a few pages of mathematical proof, I doubt many here would understand it.

    I find it extremely hard to believe that "MOST" LS1 powered cars have over 400rwhp these days. There were a lot of LS1s put in cars. Over 300... sure. Over 400? Doubtful. Over 400 at the wheels, and a DD (for the record, its not a DD, unless you drive it in the winter...) I'd like to formally call B.S. to your statement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smittro View Post
    Second gear start out...


    Going the wrong way, I'd want a 0.5 gear.

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    Drop&Drag matt evans's Avatar
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    i drove my z every day for well over a year with a ms4 cam and stock converter. car makes over 400 to the wheels and i made it through winter fine. There alot more people here with over 400 to the ground then you think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt evans View Post
    i drove my z every day for well over a year with a ms4 cam and stock converter. car makes over 400 to the wheels and i made it through winter fine. There alot more people here with over 400 to the ground then you think.
    Stock converter is the key there. If I was an auto with the stock converter I'm sure it'd be no issue.

    As far as people HERE with over 400hp, I'd be willing to accept that the people on this board more than 50% of LS1s have over 400whp. However, over 400whp, and a DD... again probably not. There are 52k members on this board. There were over 90K LS1 powered Camaros produced from 98-02, so even if every member of this board had a 400+rwhp LS1 powered car, it would not satisfy the assertion made above that "MOST ls1 cars out there are over your 400rwhp", because that doesn't even take into account the 100k+ Corvettes with LS1s built.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gashkerwin View Post
    Going the wrong way, I'd want a 0.5 gear.
    Change the rear..

    Or have a custom trany built, Or custom input shaft with a custom 1st gear made..

    There's not enough weight over the ass to plant it with 400 to the road and all that nose weight..
    Last edited by Smittro; 12-29-2011 at 11:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gashkerwin View Post
    People over the years have asked many many times about "is this combo streetable". I was never entirely sure what they meant until the other day.

    For a few years now my car has been at 400/400 rwhp/rwtq due mainly to my 234/236 cam. On a cold day, it needed to warm up or it really wouldn't get above 2000 rpm without starting to sputter a bit. Ok, no problem I lived in a little development anyway, so I could baby it out of the development, and by the time I got to a "real" road it was warmed up - or I'd just have to let it idle for a few minutes before pulling out.

    All of this was on a stock clutch.

    Well this summer the stocker was barely holding together so I went ahead and upgraded the clutch. Ram Stage 3 or 4, I don't remember, but its a properly grippy SOB - 750 ftlbs of clamping force. Giddy up. It was like I bought a whole new car. I could go WOT in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd and the clutch had more grip than my tires for the first time in probably a year.

    Well, now its winter time. As it turns out, my car is on that knifes edge of what is and isn't streetable, and I'm leaning toward saying "nope - not a street car anymore".

    Now in addition to needing to warm the engine up - the clutch needs to warm up. Problem is, that only happens from driving - and takes longer for the clutch to heat up than the engine. So now, with my big cam, on cold tires and a cold clutch every intersection is a workout for the traction control, and because the clutch has 0 slip to it, short shifting doesn't really work either. Oh, and I had to drive in the rain the other day... what an adventure.

    So if you're wondering where the border between streetable and not is... well, get a smaller cam, or a less aggressive clutch than I have unless the only time you ever want to drive your car is on sunny days that are 70+ degrees.

    this is terrible advice...

    sounds like you need a good tune... with just that cam you're probably a good 20hp under the 400hp mark unless you have better flowing heads to go with it... there are plenty of members here with larger cams that dd their cars and have over 400 rwhp and don't have problems...

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    i just realized we're all from PA with the exception of matt...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaz View Post
    this is terrible advice...

    sounds like you need a good tune... with just that cam you're probably a good 20hp under the 400hp mark unless you have better flowing heads to go with it... there are plenty of members here with larger cams that dd their cars and have over 400 rwhp and don't have problems...
    Agree. Sounds like a tune issue. I run a larger cam, heads and other internals, and one of the best Spec twin disc clutch setups, with 4.10 gears. Hanging just above the 450 hp mark, I would have no problem at all dd'ing my car.
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    i put a 3600 stall in my car. I can DD if i want to, and i have. Dont have a problem at all driving mine to the track, running it and coming home or whatever. Most the guys i hang out with that have f-bodys have around the same suppporting mods as i do and they drive theres the same way. Its all how you build it.

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    Just under 400 but still DD the TA for now, after the cam/stall install I DD the TA till recently,(even through the winter)

    +1 on getting your tune dialed in.

    ASA Cam, Built A4, 3500 Stall, LT's, ORY, Hooker CB, E Cut-out, Lid, Modified SSRA, , SFC's,UMI Tq Arm w/relo, Spohn LCA's, 3.73's, Free Mods, Dyno tuned by James @ SpeedShift Performance. Need more suspension mods!!!

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    Anymore a decent h/c swap will get you over the 400rwhp mark. And not everyone can afford more than one vehicle so they have to have their toys as their DD. I have drove built mustangs, F-bodies and one corvette everyday even in the snow till I graduated college and was able to afford another vehicle. And your car is a very mild setup.

    What gears are you running?
    Last edited by Spaz; 12-30-2011 at 09:20 AM.

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    To the OP, it seems like you would want advice on how to street your car, yet it seems like you have gone on the defensive rather early. I am sure that there are MANY Ls1's with 400 at the wheels. I am getting there myself. The guys are advising you to look at your tune. Sounds like good advice. What areas of the tune do you guys think may be the problem? I am curious myself, as I will be there shortly, and would benefit from the same advice. (That's what this forum is about, after all.)

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    its all about the tune. my car is full bolt ons with a 233/239 113 and had no problems in a A4... m6 is even easier to make streetable. most tuners GUESS at the cold start tune. cars are at full temp while they monitor what its doing and make adjustments for drivability. the car would have to sit for 4,5, or 6 hrs in order for the tuner to start it up, monitor, and then make adjustments for it to cold start well. many people run plenty bigger cams and have no problem. steeper gears would help, but tune and driving habbits are the bigger problems. dont mean to be offensive in any way but get use to driving with your new clutch.

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