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Heads/Cam Question

This is a discussion on Heads/Cam Question within the Internal Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; 450 at the tire will be tough in most cases with budget heads. Patriots are very hit and miss. AFRs ...

  1. #21
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    450 at the tire will be tough in most cases with budget heads. Patriots are very hit and miss. AFRs and TFSs will regularly cross that 450 point.

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    I Like It Stroked 99Ls1fever's Avatar
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    How are Patriots Hit or Miss?

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    Senior Member M-Ten's Avatar
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    do AFR's outflow patriot heads that much?

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    I Like It Stroked 99Ls1fever's Avatar
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    OOOO Yes AFR'S are the BEST CYLINDER heads money can buy. I just like Patriots cause I can affrord them and be with in 5 to 8 hp of the Air Flow Research Heads AFR.

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    Senior Member M-Ten's Avatar
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    Well $1400 more for 5-8 HP? And what did you mean patriots are hit or miss, frost?

  6. #26
    Visualize°Design°Create SSwt00SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    450 at the tire will be tough in most cases with budget heads. Patriots are very hit and miss. AFRs and TFSs will regularly cross that 450 point.
    hhhmmm...interesting comment. i acknowledge that you say 'in most cases', however, your 'hit and miss' comment i wont. just like Comp and their 918 springs, a small bad batch and everyone runs. same with a few set of Patriot heads and people panic...

    i refused to spend $1200-1600 more for AFR heads, PERIOD! ill gladly let the people who only care to toss money at their car to say they have the best shit on it do that. ill pocket the difference and still gladly take them at the track, their high-dollar ride against my budget beater...

    this is my dyno sheet with Patriot Stage II Ls6 "Style" heads (59cc), a little Comp 224, FAST 90/90, LT's/SLP LM catback. Patriot heads have been a "HIT" for me, as i have room to play with by going to a larger cam or even adding and U/D Pulley to hit 450rwhp...

    again, $1200-1600 more to get 6rwhp, sorry, not worth it. anyone with 1/2 a brain would agree...


  7. #27
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    You guys can get mad all you want... After seeing over a dozen sets and only maybe 2 of them making good power, I will repeat, they are hit or miss.

    SSwt00SS Your results are not typical. Barely cracking 400-410rwhp with LTs, ORY, ls6 intake are the norm for these heads. I think it's great that yours are working for you, but let me ask you, have tried 10-12 sets of them? Nope. The last set I did took a lot of work to get to get every last HP out of, and we ended up with 403rwhp with a 224/224 112 (TR cam), ls6 intake and ported TB, QTP LTs and ORY, M6, stock rear. The owner was really disappointed. He tried to point finger at the tuning and had me put it back to stock and I gave him his money back. He brought it back surging 2 weeks later after taking it to another shop. Didn't idle well until warm, and they couldn't make but 390rwhp with it. I tossed his finished tune back on, adjusted his TB and he was on his way. Oh yeah, and he apologized, don't get that a lot these days.

    You guys moan everytime I say that budget heads make budget power, but it's your money. Roll the dice, maybe you will get lucky like SSwt00SS. As a side note, I have seen recently 455/505 from a car with STOCK LS6 243 heads, fast 90/90, g5x3, no UD pulley and no EWP.

    This difference here too, is that AFRs will make much more down low than any ls6 based head (ls6 head have big runners, cavernous when ported) even if comparable up top.

  8. #28
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Ten View Post
    Well $1400 more for 5-8 HP? And what did you mean patriots are hit or miss, frost?
    Don't you think if this were true and nearly always the case that no one would be buying AFRs or TFSs? Do you think it is coincidence that the fastest cars almost always run AFR, TFS, RHS, DART, or AP heads? If the Patriots always made what SSwt00SS posted, people would be all over them.


    Here ya go, some 389rwhp numbers with them... granted the owner could make another 10 or so from tuning, still puts him where I said, and others with similar experiences in this thread so read it through http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=805880

  9. #29
    2 SS's are better than 1 Jays00ss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Ten View Post
    what are ultra yellow terras?
    Roller rockers, They have a better contact path with the valve and prevent premature valve guide wear.

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    please understand, i am not mad or upset. FROST, you are correct, i have not tried 10-12 sets of Patriot heads. people rag on me because they are the Ls6 "Style" heads that are the 6.0L truck castings. then people doubt that i only have a 224 cam. i have no U/D pulley, no EWP, still running stock injectors, etc (stock rear end/gears, M6)...

    i agree with you on where a car stands powerwise with the Ls6 intake. i was 409/386 with the Ls6 intake (non P&P TB), the 224 cam, and Patriot heads. it was the swap to the FAST 90/90 that got me to 444/395. look at my dyno sheet from a dyno day at LG last May and it falls within your comment. my numbers pre-heads were 376/366...

    please know, im not saying you arent telling the truth or giving wrong information. there are points you make to which im agreeing with you and have similar results to what you speak of. i just think that they are hit and miss with some applications. if i got lucky, then so be it. yes, jaws dropped when i gained 35rwhp at the shop that did the retune after the FAST 90 install...


  11. #31
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    FWIW, the original poster didn't mention spending the dough on the Fast90/90, and ALL of the people that I have tuned with these setups don't go that route either; hence their budget heads. For the cost of the Fast 90/90, you made up the difference in head cost, and I have made over 450rwhp without the Fast intake with a set of AFRs; wonder what the Fast would have been worth on that combo...

    Sorry if I sound touchy, I have made the "budget heads make budget HP" statement and been attacked on it before by guys who merely don't want to spend the dough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    The last set I did took a lot of work to get to get every last HP out of, and we ended up with 403rwhp with a 224/224 112 (TR cam), ls6 intake and ported TB, QTP LTs and ORY, M6, stock rear. The owner was really disappointed.
    .
    That "owner" was a retard.....I would be happy as hell with 403 RWHP using a 224/224 with "budget" heads. No mustang ever made that with a H/C setup. Plus the real benifit behind the 224 cam is it's power under the curve not peak power. I bet that car would give the monster cam/stock LS6 head car a run for its money in the 1/4 despite the differene in peak HP.

    Finally,
    AFR a couple of years ago had some problems with their SBF 185 heads, so they too are not immune to quality issues. I would rather have a set of highly engineered GM castings (GM spends more money designing their heads than AFR makes in a year) with CNC porting for half the price IMO. Not arguing with your experience Frost as you are always on the up, but I have a hard time believing that a CNC'd factory casting has that much flow variance between units. I wonder if the variations you are seening are differences in compression ration (59 vs. 64 CC)?

    V/r,

  13. #33
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    I am sharp enough to consider overall SCR. Those runners on those LS6s get HUGE when you hog them out (240+ cc's!) which makes them shine up top, but port velocity is lost down low.

  14. #34
    I Like It Stroked 99Ls1fever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSwt00SS View Post
    hhhmmm...interesting comment. i acknowledge that you say 'in most cases', however, your 'hit and miss' comment i wont. just like Comp and their 918 springs, a small bad batch and everyone runs. same with a few set of Patriot heads and people panic...

    i refused to spend $1200-1600 more for AFR heads, PERIOD! ill gladly let the people who only care to toss money at their car to say they have the best shit on it do that. ill pocket the difference and still gladly take them at the track, their high-dollar ride against my budget beater...

    this is my dyno sheet with Patriot Stage II Ls6 "Style" heads (59cc), a little Comp 224, FAST 90/90, LT's/SLP LM catback. Patriot heads have been a "HIT" for me, as i have room to play with by going to a larger cam or even adding and U/D Pulley to hit 450rwhp...

    again, $1200-1600 more to get 6rwhp, sorry, not worth it. anyone with 1/2 a brain would agree...

    Click for full size
    Thank you for showing your wisdom to the meek, I also have patriot heads and have a 408 stroker and make 530hp so am laughing at the hit or miss comment. I would never pay another 1500 for 5 hp .....

  15. #35
    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 99Ls1fever View Post
    Thank you for showing your wisdom to the meek, I also have patriot heads and have a 408 stroker and make 530hp so am laughing at the hit or miss comment. I would never pay another 1500 for 5 hp .....
    So if they always make such great power, why doesn't EVERYONE run them? Why do aftermarket castings sell at all?

    Why do I have a pile of cars that FIGHT (six-speed cars at that) to break 400rwhp with them minus the 2 from the blue that made over 430?

    What about this user, and the other Patriot owner on the second page? http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=805880

    As a matter of fact, I don't sell either of them (or ANY heads), so why would I lie about honest experience?

    Here's some outside info if you don't like hearing it from me. These are all Patriot results. Maybe you can tell them that they are wrong?

    http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=378589

    http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=780906

    http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=753085

    http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135154

    Still laughing?


    -To the rest of the readers, I'm out, said my peace and done.
    Last edited by Frost; 01-23-2008 at 12:26 PM.

  16. #36
    Visualize°Design°Create SSwt00SS's Avatar
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    FROST, ill be the 1st to admit that my knowledge of 5.3 heads vs. Ls6 heads is limited. my understanding is that some people choose to run 5.3 to bump up their C/R, much like running a lower "CC" size in ls6 heads do the same.

    is that anything close? what are the differences, the similarities? i looked over the links you posted and about 1/2 the users had Stage II 5.3 heads, 2 users stated Ls6 Stage II (with smaller openings: 2.00"int/1.55"ext) to my 2.02"/1.57" Stage II heads. only one person, if i recall, said Stage II heads but didnt disclose 5.3 or Ls6...

    some questioned their individual setups saying "mismatched" parts, etc. or reverse split cams need a better free flowing exhaust, to a 224 cam is too small, etc. im not trying to make excuses but "IN THEORY" selecting parts that compliment eachother and work in symetry, and a tuner that knows what they are doing, are what produce the best results? is this not correct to an extent?

  17. #37
    Senior Member M-Ten's Avatar
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    Ok what do you guys think.. I called up TSP and talked to John, I told him that the car was a DD and wanted to hear is recommendation on cam/head setup...

    He said either the 228 or the Torquer v.2 with the Stage 2.5 5.3 heads..

    What do you guys think?

  18. #38
    Member Empatho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M-Ten View Post
    Ok what do you guys think.. I called up TSP and talked to John, I told him that the car was a DD and wanted to hear is recommendation on cam/head setup...

    He said either the 228 or the Torquer v.2 with the Stage 2.5 5.3 heads..

    What do you guys think?
    thats what Im saving my money for
    Im going to get a 228r 112 with stage 2.5 5.3 heads
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  19. #39
    Senior Member M-Ten's Avatar
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    Just got off the phone with TR, here's what they recommended to me..

    Their Trak Cam --- 231/234 .640/.590 112 LSA 2400-6800 RPM Power Band

    They told me with this cam, and a good set of heads, I should be able to hit 450 RWHP. For the record the guy did keep saying that it would be most likely for me to get those numbers with the AFR heads, and it might be a little harder to hit that with some PRC or Patriot heads

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    Now i dont mean to but in.... but with LTs, 3" true dual, lid, U/D pull, full suspension (not that it matters), double roller timing chain, K&M, LS6 intake, 10.4mm PRO wires, and a TR 232/242 .595/.602 111.5LSA CAM ONLY CAR NO THER MODS on a dyno jet at 71 degrees made 411RWHP and 403RWTQ CORRECTED & DYNO TUNED.... The car is an 02 WS6 CE M6... Possible it's a freak.... Mayb but i DO have the dyno graph for the car which i will post when i get home... No offense to the patriot heads but if i could make 411/403 with a decently big cam (not retarted big like the T-REX) then the patriots should be making more power..... My same setup just with AFR 205cc 62cc are in my sig.... To each his own but whatever anyone decides to go with they should be satisfied with what the car makes... Not everyone has the money to throw away on top notch heads or is stupid enuff like me lol.....

    Hope this gives more of a comparison to everyone about their H/C setup and im not bragging so please dont anyone think that im just helping so that everyone knows that they could be making the most out of their H/C combo....
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