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Heads/cam

This is a discussion on Heads/cam within the Internal Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Well I'm starting to think about what I want to with my car build wise. It is 100% stock. My ...

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    Member 1998 T/A's Avatar
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    Heads/cam

    Well I'm starting to think about what I want to with my car build wise. It is 100% stock. My future mods are gonna be ls6 intake, LT's ORY and probably just a ported TB. car already has a nice manga flow cat back and the exhaust will be run with no cats and a cutout. This being said I'd like to do a head cam swap on a low budget. I like the MS4 cam and a lot of people seem happy with it but I am just confused on what heads to go with. I do not want to blow 3k on heads because I feel I can get mine ported or go with the 243 casting and still make good power. This is DD in the summer and I'd like to keep it streetable but not blow 5k on a top end build. I'd rather wait for the engine to need rebuilding because at that point it'll be looking into a stroker or LQ9/4...this build is way way down the road so don't respond by just do that build!!!!

    Thanks

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    Spaz is My Mentor SMWS6TA's Avatar
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    You can get a set of used 243's for about $450-500. (At least that is what I paid for mine).

    That would be the best option because you can always port them later.

    MS4 is a decent cam but was designed 7-10 yrs ago, new advancements have better cams out on the market. Most cams go for $375 and for custom grind $425. Most reported issues I've heard with the MS3/4 is that every 25k miles you're looking a valve spring changes. It was on my short list for my build but I went with a slightly bigger cam because I did a 6.0 LQ build. Make sure you get good springs to compliment the cam you're going to get.

    I would also consider adding to your H/C/I swap the following:

    Melling 10295 oil pump
    LS2 timing chain, with maybe the Trickflow dampner
    MLS gasket set (since the 98 came with graphite)
    ARP head studs perfer but also look at their bolts if on a tight budget.

    Also consider having a (good) shop look over the heads, one that knows about LS stuff. Not everyone knows the current stuff. (Go ahead, ask me how I know this now)
    There are 1 to 2 more items I would do but not knowing your skills I'll hold back on giving too much details.


    There are several of us that have recently finished or are currently in the process of engine builds. Here is a thread that can link you to them. Look them over it may give you ideas and show stuff you might not have thought of.

    Engine Builds

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    Member 1998 T/A's Avatar
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    Ya timing chain and oil pump will be replaced just didn't feel the need to mention it. My skills are pretty low mainly because I have lack of tools to do it with. I guess I'm more of a drop it of at the shop and do this kind of guy. I would like to get into that stuff but I have zero time to do it right now. I like the way ms4 sounds but I'm open to other cams. I like comp cams and the polluter sounds dirty, no pun intended. I'm mainly you tubing different ones to see what I like in terms of sound and performance.

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    Senior Member redbird555's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1998 T/A View Post
    Well I'm starting to think about what I want to with my car build wise. It is 100% stock. My future mods are gonna be ls6 intake, LT's ORY and probably just a ported TB. car already has a nice manga flow cat back and the exhaust will be run with no cats and a cutout. This being said I'd like to do a head cam swap on a low budget. I like the MS4 cam and a lot of people seem happy with it but I am just confused on what heads to go with. I do not want to blow 3k on heads because I feel I can get mine ported or go with the 243 casting and still make good power. This is DD in the summer and I'd like to keep it streetable but not blow 5k on a top end build. I'd rather wait for the engine to need rebuilding because at that point it'll be looking into a stroker or LQ9/4...this build is way way down the road so don't respond by just do that build!!!!

    Thanks
    You sound like you're new to this whole thing so please dont take what I'm about to say as offensive because a lot of people fall into it but the ms4 is not for you. Heres the mentality you seem to have along with many other new people so dont worry.

    OP:Hi I want a huge cam in my car so it'll lope hard, sound badass and be fast.
    Sponsor: Hmm ok how will you be using the car?
    OP: DD and maybe having some fun at the dragstrip.
    Sponsor: Uhhh well what intake and heads/valves will you be using?
    OP: Ummmm well whatever is cheapest I guess, maybe ported stock ones and stock style intake?
    Sponsor: Uhhh ok well what kind of springs and lifters are you using?
    OP: Well you say the cam has .650 lift so give me the cheapest springs that will handle .650 lift and can't I use stock lifters?
    Sponsor: no stock lifters wont handle the cam lobe design.
    OP: Ok well give me the cheapest lifters that can handle the cam.


    Now that dialog may be a bit over exaggerated but it's honestly what you're saying to a point. The ms4 is HUGE and will drive like crap down low and make all its power up top. It's meant for an all out drag application. When you get caught up in just having a big cam like that you neglect 99% of what goes into a well performing setup. I can tell you that an MS4 cammed car with stock ported heads or 243's will get bitch slapped all the way down the block by a small cammed car with a badass set of heads. HEADS make the car then the cam

    So with that in mind get the absolute BEST heads you can afford if you're going to do heads. If not then keep the cam selection to specs thats will compliment the heads you are using. For example a cam in the 228/230 duration range will work well on stock or ported heads and make good useable power all through the rpm and maybe only give up 15hp up top to the ms4.

    Going back to my faux dialog up there, this guy will end up calling the sponsor ordering an ms4 cam. They'll use stock heads and intake that dont flow anywhere near the cams needs, using heavy stainless valves with lifters that are constantly stressed by the lobes and heavy springs to try and control it all. This is the complete wrong way to go about it the heavy valetrain and violent lobes will cause issues up top with valve float, ultimately shortening the life of the components and creating a lot of stress of the valvetrain.

    After all this is done the car will drive like poop and get walked all day by cars that drive much better with tiny cams and the owner will wonder why.

    Again man I dont mean to be a dick just giving an example so please take it as friendly advice. Get the best heads you can. a set of cnc'd 243 heads can be had for around 1k used even afr's can be had for 1500 with some hunting. The ls6 intake will be fine with a small cam but a FAST will always make more power and if you have the money then its a good investment. Get 1-7/8" headers they will always make more than 1-3/4 even on a stock motor and even more so with H/C. Finally select a cam that matches your needs and combo. One in the high 220's and low 230's will make a good driver and work well with any heads. Finally select the valvetrain carefully do not overspring if you dont have to, use good pushrods and get the lightest valves you can. A lightweight valvetrain will rev easier, live longer and make better power.

    If you follow that plan you will have a car in the end that maximizes its setup which is what its all about. Also if you get a quality top end now there's no reason you cant just transfer it to the lq motor later on

    One thing I forgot to add yesterday. Picking a cam for sound is the last thing you should do. Overlap (the duration the intake and exhaust valve are open at the same time) is what gives a cam the sound. Overlap is the avg of the intake and exhaust-2*lsa so a 224/228 on a 110 lsa means 226-220=6 degrees overlap. Now the higher you go in duration and overlap the further the powerband gets shifter up hence why the ms4 with 18 degrees overlap and 23x/24x durations sounds like a dragster but makes all its power up stairs. There are many other factors that go into how and when cams make power like IVC (intake valve closing) (EVC) exhaust closing etc but thats a little complicated to get into here.

    Anything over -6 overlap will be audible I have 3-4 degrees overlap on my f13 and there NO mistaking the car has a decent cam. If you want a DD anything 8 degrees or under can be tuned to drive and perform well in a street car with stock heads. Look at the Streetsweeper HT by fti 228/232 on a 112 means 8 degrees overlap. It will chop hard and make a great drier when tuned correctly
    Last edited by redbird555; 07-28-2014 at 12:22 PM.

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    Member 1998 T/A's Avatar
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    Not trying to be a dick either but out of that 10 paragraph 4 were useful, appreciate the input though. I will definitely go with the ported 243's and i don't think it's worth the 500 extra dollars to get a FAST over an ls6, maybe if the car is putting down huge numbers yes but for a mild cam and ported heads I don't think so. I've been checking out the comp cams and gonna drop the guys at Texas speed an email to see what will work best with the set up I want to go with...

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    Senior Member redbird555's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1998 T/A View Post
    Not trying to be a dick either but out of that 10 paragraph 4 were useful, appreciate the input though. I will definitely go with the ported 243's and i don't think it's worth the 500 extra dollars to get a FAST over an ls6, maybe if the car is putting down huge numbers yes but for a mild cam and ported heads I don't think so. I've been checking out the comp cams and gonna drop the guys at Texas speed an email to see what will work best with the set up I want to go with...
    Take from it what you wish the dialog may have been a bit over the top but it everything else in that reply is geared towards you getting the most out of your combo. I cant post links to other sites on here but google "whats up with comp cams" and do a little reading. Then go with a bullet or cam motion ground cam. Contact Kip @ cam motion Allan @ Futral, Ed @ FTI or Martin @ Tick. they all have actually designed cam lobes and have their own custom proprietary lobes. I'd bet anything if you tell them you want the car to be a DD and fun driving the cam will come in the 227/234 ish range

    Do research on a fast on a ported 243 and mild cam combo, you would have to literally botch the intake to not see 20whp more if the fast is ported. You said yourself you're a newb at this so instead of saying that a FAST doesnt do much on a mild H/C combo do some reading and take advice from people who have seen and done it. On a cam only combo the fast is worth it if you want all the hp possible. On a H/C combo the ls6 is a huge choke point.

    Cam only ls1 stock heads ls6-fast 90/90 gained 22whp
    fastdyno2-14-09.jpg

    And another cam only ls1
    BradB-fast-vs-ls2.jpg


    there are many more I just found these within a couple mins of searching if you have the money its worth it.

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    It starts to become a HP per dollar issue. For most people including myself, I'm not willing to spend $1500 on an intake that yields me 22hp Since there are literally thousands of cam/head LS combos out there with LS6 intakes that are running 11's, and even 10's, it goes without saying that the combo works well enough for the majority of backyard hotrodders. Hell there are "cam only" cars going 11's

    On a street/strip car, with the main focus on street, the LS6 intake does a fine job. However if money is no object then by all means toss on a FAST and enjoy. If you were spending the coin anyway and building 400+ cubes with lots of HP and TQ in mind, I'd probably give FAST intakes a serious consideration.

    For your LS1, I'd look at what Texas Speed has to offer with their ported 243's fresh out the door, prices are reasonable. Then get their recommendation on a cam that suits your needs, easy one stop shopping. If you don't cheap out on the top end now, most of it (if not all) could be transferred over to your new engine build later down the road. Something to think about.

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Something else I'd consider is whether the rest of the car is setup properly. If you really want an MS4 cam (or any cam in that range), you'll need at least a 4.10 gear or more to take advantage of the rpm range that cam will run. Otherwise the car would be a pooch. Right off the bat I'd look at 12 bolt and 9 inch rears along with the gear swap.
    With an auto and the right stall it would be a pretty quick ride, and could prolong the 10 bolts life until funds allowed something better.

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    Senior Member redbird555's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    It starts to become a HP per dollar issue. For most people including myself, I'm not willing to spend $1500 on an intake that yields me 22hp Since there are literally thousands of cam/head LS combos out there with LS6 intakes that are running 11's, and even 10's, it goes without saying that the combo works well enough for the majority of backyard hotrodders. Hell there are "cam only" cars going 11's

    On a street/strip car, with the main focus on street, the LS6 intake does a fine job. However if money is no object then by all means toss on a FAST and enjoy. If you were spending the coin anyway and building 400+ cubes with lots of HP and TQ in mind, I'd probably give FAST intakes a serious consideration.

    For your LS1, I'd look at what Texas Speed has to offer with their ported 243's fresh out the door, prices are reasonable. Then get their recommendation on a cam that suits your needs, easy one stop shopping. If you don't cheap out on the top end now, most of it (if not all) could be transferred over to your new engine build later down the road. Something to think about.
    I agree if the op already had an ls6 intake. The ls6 is fine for most applications. However he will spend 100 on a ported tb unless he did a home port job and 350ish on an ls6 intake as prices have gone up slightly. He'll be in it for 450. A used fast can be had for around 600 and a tb for 250ish used. At that point the price difference between the 2 is 500 or so with misc hardware. Injectors are moot as with the op's setup he will need larger ones anyway. At that point since he's already building the combo and will nede a tune the 500 for 22hp extra is a much better bargain than if he bought everything new and needed a dynotune.

    I have bought 3 fast intakes 1 90 a ported 92 and now a 102. None of them cost more than 600 the 102 only had 100 miles on it. It is really easy to spend 1500 on a new fast with billet rails, new billet tb and a brand new intake. But with a little work and patience that price can be greatly reduced. My current 102 with a Billet FAST tb and injectors/ ls2 rail need for the 102 is right at 850 for the setup as it sits now minus the sale of my ls6 for 350 means I got into it pretty cheap lol
    Last edited by redbird555; 07-30-2014 at 11:02 AM.

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Yeah, that's alot of finagaling and patients that I'll only go through if something isn't produced anymore. As long as they still fly off the shelves I just prefer to buy the new stuff with a warranty. Not too keen on used engine parts, even intakes.

    I'd also prefer the correct air intake that matches the throat diameter of the larger intake/throttle body so that's another expense. Never cared for the cobbled up stuff I've seen on some rides to mate 2 different sizes together. So that's another expense (for me). Since 102's are the only thing I see on the shelves that means new fuel rails too, whether LS2 or billet, it's still an expense, sometimes spacers are used as well.

    All that crap actually adds up to over $2,000 for me when it's all said and done, and I tune them myself so $500 for that isn't even included, lol. Yeah I think I'll stick with my LS6 for a daily driver street car

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    On the flip side of that, and getting a bit comical, at that price I'm almost half way to a procharger setup Why not just go a bit further and double the HP rather than a 22HP gain? All kidding aside, the FAST is a nice piece, I just feel Wilson/FAST is a bit too proud of it. Not to say I wouldn't run one if I were building a 400+ cubed engine and looking for every last drop of HP. I just won't do that on anything resembling a street car though.

    Funny, actually have a 408 build planned, but with a smallish cam, cathedral heads, stock LS6 intake etc...to make a very flat torquey daily driver that isn't so bad on gas.

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    Another ls6 versus Fast thread huh? I am in agreement with a lot of things said. One thing to keep in mind is that he said down the road he plans on doing a stroker so why not get the intake that will best suit that build so you don't have to buy another intake later? Depending on the heads and cam you are really looking at more than 22 hp gain over the ls6. I bought FAST 102 brand new because 1 I didn't have a ls6 and 2 I didn't want to spend money on a ls6 and later a fast and 3 I had the plan of doing a stroker from day one. However if you don't have the budget to include a FAST I would do what you can or save up more and get a FAST setup depending on the size of cam and heads you go with.
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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    I guess it depends on ones perspective.

    I'm doing a stroker but still won't be going with a FAST setup. It would obviously benefit the stroker combo more, but I still can't justify the money I'd have to spend on it. This mild 408 will easily give me about ~430-450 rwhp and that's really all I need for my wifes daily driver, I'm putting more emphasis on a flat torque curve so don't care much about peak numbers. I mean it's a street car, when's it enough? That would likely put the car deep in the 11's out here in the AZ heat anyway, probably below the 11.50 roll bar requirement so what good would it do me to look for more power, it's not getting a cage. That's more than enough for what we do with the car. Besides, I already have a HP toy in the garage of a different flavor.

    Now if the original poster is playing with a weekend toy and/or don't mind the extra coin, FAST intakes are excellent. I'm not trying to talk him out of it. They just aren't for me, and it helps to see both sides of the fence and make your own decision.

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    Senior Member redbird555's Avatar
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    I completely understand all points brought up and to each his own. FAST is very proud of that intake simply because theres no competition so they can be lol. If buying it all new then no way is the fast worth the money. However in my case, the op's and many others you usally have the time to shop for a good deal and believe it or not they com eup pretty readily. I'd say its honestly harder to source a used tb since most people dont sell them or want it sold as a bundle.

    With that said I still stand by what I said in my original post. The op needs to do a lot more reading and speaking to gurus before buying an ms anything cam. The fact of the matter is they dont go with what he seems to want and the XER LSK lobes they use make power but at a great cost of stability. New cams ground on eps lobes, lsl lobes and the like will make the same power but do it much more safely and efficiently. If I was the OP I would do this...

    Trick Flow "as cast" 220's with PM guides (about the same price as an ls6 cnc head)
    Spring choice to match the lobes of the cam
    230/234 eps cam 113+4 lsa .6xx lift

    The TFS heads will match a cnc ls6 head right off the start for about the same money later on they can be opened up for a stroker with no problems and will easily outshine the cnc ls6. The nice thing about them though is the thicker deck and better chamber. You can get a little more compression from them without running into issues. The 230/234 cam will yield 6 degrees overlap which will be good for a DD and with an ivc of 44 degrees the power will come on sooner and make a fun street car. The later exhaust events will also help it carry the power albeit shifting it up a bit.

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    If the FAST is so great, why are so many people selling them all the time? Seems like a reasonable question.
    It's on jackstands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    If the FAST is so great, why are so many people selling them all the time? Seems like a reasonable question.
    I don't see them for sale all the time. I do see the ls6 for sale all the time though. My guess though would be either they are going with a different set up that it isn't needed or need a different style of intake like switching from cathedral to rectangular port heads.

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    Senior Member redbird555's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    If the FAST is so great, why are so many people selling them all the time? Seems like a reasonable question.
    There have been 4 revisions of the fast now and they've been around for 7+ years. So I would think that there would be some extras floating around that people simply dont use or have upgraded. Some may have demodded, sold the car, went to a victor jr, went to FI, or a popular one I have seen is upgrading from 92/90 to a 102.

    Theres no denying the fact that they pickup power especially with a cam, if bought used can be affordable and are the best plastic intake available albeit expensive when new
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    Yea, I've seen them blow apart with Nitrous.

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    I've seen alot of shit blow apart with nitrous I'm really not a fan of plastic "anything", and when these LS engines first hit the scene I was disgusted to see a plastic intake sitting on top of the engine. But it's proven to be reliable

    I don't really see LS6 intakes forsale all that often, and when they are they are snatched up quickly. Hard to believe a 10 year old plastic intake can still fetch $400 but they do, so there is some desirability there. I do know forced induction and nitrous guys like the LS6 over FAST because of the 1 piece vs 2 piece design. The big power makers pass right over the FAST and just go Victor with a big toilet bowl.

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    Senior Member redbird555's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    I've seen alot of shit blow apart with nitrous I'm really not a fan of plastic "anything", and when these LS engines first hit the scene I was disgusted to see a plastic intake sitting on top of the engine. But it's proven to be reliable

    I don't really see LS6 intakes forsale all that often, and when they are they are snatched up quickly. Hard to believe a 10 year old plastic intake can still fetch $400 but they do, so there is some desirability there. I do know forced induction and nitrous guys like the LS6 over FAST because of the 1 piece vs 2 piece design. The big power makers pass right over the FAST and just go Victor with a big toilet bowl.
    Yes the 78,90,92 have 60 miles of rope gasket and are prone to failure from a backfire or lots of boost. When RHS (not wilson) designed the 102 they made it boost and NO2 friendly lots of people boost the 102 with no issues. Its substantially better built with a totally new design and weighs about 4 lbs more than the old fasts which is quite a bit when talking about plastic. If a victor jr would fit without surgery it would be awesome.

    just for comparison sake heres the wilson 90/92 design vs the rhs 102

    90/92 runners and bottom
    Fast78_Bottom.jpg
    DSCF0073-1.jpg


    102
    IMG_0886.jpg
    DSCN2947.jpg

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