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Got bad news

This is a discussion on Got bad news within the Internal Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; I just think we should respect GM engineers, I mean my avatar is a picture of Ed Cole, the engineer ...

  1. #61
    Member Jay37's Avatar
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    I just think we should respect GM engineers, I mean my avatar is a picture of Ed Cole, the engineer and father of the epic small block

  2. #62
    Junior Member chantel's Avatar
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    Plus found one piston that was starting to go bad,was #2 piston.Found the pin hole was oblonged and luckily did not do damage to the block.Block is still good.

  3. #63
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    my noise doesnt start until its warm....

  4. #64
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Jay37;2515597I was also always taught that a loose engine is good for racing (less friction) and doesn't last
    tight engines good for the street,

    I thought that the C-5 C-6 corvettes... were designed to hang with the big boys so they shortened the skirts to try to add a couple ponys and took every trick out of there bag, to biuld a "race inspired" engine.
    In my experiance I have not seen a good racing engine, that doesn't burn at least a quart of oil a race and literally blow out of the the valve cover breathers because of so much blow by from the loose engine, but you can't hear the slapping and knocking over open headers, thats dozens off 355s and 406s... just go to a stock car race.[/QUOTE]
    --------------------------------------------------------------


    Don't know who is building your race motors but if you have oil spewing out of the valve covers and pistons knocking, using a quart of oil per race, I'd start looking for a new builder.

    Loose pistons in the bore is not how HP is made. You can find alot of HP in pistons and ring pack designs though. It's not just corvettes that are using short skirt pistons. This technoligy isn't new, and all the piston manufactures have been doing it for 20+ years years now out in the aftermarket.
    Where you decrease most of your friction is in the ring package. Things like low tension rings and thinner ring packs. NOT a loose fitting piston.
    As a matter of fact, when the LS motor was introduced they were (and still are) using ring packs as small as 3mm to cut down friction. It wasn't in the event of HP per say, but more along the lines of gas mileage with the ever increasing environmental standards they have to comply to.

    Various engine builders experiment with various ring tension packages to see what they can get away with as far as gaining HP without oil consumption, and at the same time keeping durability and longevity. It's a fine line. If builders like Kaufmann, Bischoff, Kaas, were building engines that made piston noise and using a ton of oil, smoking, spewing out the valve covers,,,,I don't think they would be in business very long. Don't know who is going to pay $15-20k for an engine that does that.
    Last edited by Firebirdjones; 12-15-2010 at 08:39 AM.

  5. #65
    Member Jay37's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    --------------------------------------------------------------


    Don't know who is building your race motors but if you have oil spewing out of the valve covers and pistons knocking, using a quart of oil per race, I'd start looking for a new builder.

    Loose pistons in the bore is not how HP is made. You can find alot of HP in pistons and ring pack designs though. It's not just corvettes that are using short skirt pistons. This technoligy isn't new, and all the piston manufactures have been doing it for 20+ years years now out in the aftermarket.
    Where you decrease most of your friction is in the ring package. Things like low tension rings and thinner ring packs. NOT a loose fitting piston.
    As a matter of fact, when the LS motor was introduced they were (and still are) using ring packs as small as 3mm to cut down friction. It wasn't in the event of HP per say, but more along the lines of gas mileage with the ever increasing environmental standards they have to comply to.

    Various engine builders experiment with various ring tension packages to see what they can get away with as far as gaining HP without oil consumption, and at the same time keeping durability and longevity. It's a fine line. If builders like Kaufmann, Bischoff, Kaas, were building engines that made piston noise and using a ton of oil, smoking, spewing out the valve covers,,,,I don't think they would be in business very long. Don't know who is going to pay $15-20k for an engine that does that.
    Really LOL

    I biuld my own engines.

    I can't believe I'm enteraining this.

    1.I said loose engines not pistons.
    2.No engine biulder/racer myself included is going to tell you his specs NOTE. I don't have all day so I only went to the kaufmann website... and yes he seperates race, from street engines and do you think he would tell you the ring gap, rod, main, and cylinder clearances IN HIS RACE CAR? are you good friends with any of them? you should call and ask him for his blue prints, any biulder who says he sells the same engine he races is full of shit. thats why they do the sales pitch were they say they will sell you the engine out of there car.
    3.I'm a diesel mechanic I don't have money to go off of some ones opinion, I have spent the better part of 20 years worth of trial and error. I know what I know and am going to stick with it. I didn't learn it from some magazine or website
    4.The most I've learned about racing engines is from a biulder and family friend that had to many drinks and when I was a lad told me some secrets, he would give the shirt off his back, but not his specs.
    5.Yes, books are great and there are alot posts here easily answered in a book. but the only way to learn to biuld a racing engine is from, blood and sweat.
    6.I talked to my friend today, who use to run a machine shop, after the economy got bad he is bustin knuckles on with me. So I did research and enterain this factory blue print or tight engine theory. Understand that when I asked him, he looked like I told him his wife was cheating, then I said "just wondering cause I heard running factory tight engines was good" he said "in a race car" and started chuckling. That was it.
    7.I'm not talking about a bracket car or mild class stock car racing here.


    The people here are great. I have learned alot about electronics, the part numbers and tidbits.
    BUT REALLY???

  6. #66
    Member Jay37's Avatar
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    also I never said spew oil out, I said blow.

    What I am trying to say, is if you clearly haven't been biulding stock car engines and you biuld street cars, and clearly aren't competive mechanic what is your opinion worth on racing engines?

    The only reason I came on this site was to figure out how hard the electronics would be for my pick up 6.0, which I ended up having to call proffessionals for. Its not going to take long for alot of the LS guys to get the same rep as tuners.

  7. #67
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay37 View Post
    Really LOL

    I biuld my own engines.

    I can't believe I'm enteraining this.

    1.I said loose engines not pistons.
    2.No engine biulder/racer myself included is going to tell you his specs NOTE. I don't have all day so I only went to the kaufmann website... and yes he seperates race, from street engines and do you think he would tell you the ring gap, rod, main, and cylinder clearances IN HIS RACE CAR? are you good friends with any of them? you should call and ask him for his blue prints, any biulder who says he sells the same engine he races is full of shit. thats why they do the sales pitch were they say they will sell you the engine out of there car.
    3.I'm a diesel mechanic I don't have money to go off of some ones opinion, I have spent the better part of 20 years worth of trial and error. I know what I know and am going to stick with it. I didn't learn it from some magazine or website
    4.The most I've learned about racing engines is from a biulder and family friend that had to many drinks and when I was a lad told me some secrets, he would give the shirt off his back, but not his specs.
    5.Yes, books are great and there are alot posts here easily answered in a book. but the only way to learn to biuld a racing engine is from, blood and sweat.
    6.I talked to my friend today, who use to run a machine shop, after the economy got bad he is bustin knuckles on with me. So I did research and enterain this factory blue print or tight engine theory. Understand that when I asked him, he looked like I told him his wife was cheating, then I said "just wondering cause I heard running factory tight engines was good" he said "in a race car" and started chuckling. That was it.
    7.I'm not talking about a bracket car or mild class stock car racing here.


    The people here are great. I have learned alot about electronics, the part numbers and tidbits.
    BUT REALLY???
    The discussion was centered around loose pistons and piston slap, if you go back to jiveass and redbirds posts you'll see what that was derived from.
    Clearances and tolerances inside a short block are no big secret, there is nothing to hide there. Loose?? Tight?? Really not much difference between the two, you are talking thousanths.
    What is your definition of a race engine anyway?? A certain HP goal??

    I'm not here to measure dick sizes, so I'm not going to get into experiences, I'll just say I've been lucky enough to have been around the best who compete in the engine masters challenge. I don't claim to know it all, but I'm always willing to pass around usefull information since the internet is cluttered with crap.
    I don't expect you or anyone to listen, and don't care for the most part.

  8. #68
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay37 View Post
    racing engine, that doesn't burn at least a quart of oil a race and literally blow out of the the valve cover breathers because of so much blow by from the loose engine, but you can't hear the slapping and knocking over open headers, thats dozens off 355s and 406s... just go to a stock car race.
    Uummm you did say oil literally blowing out of the valve cover breathers,,,,hence my comment of spewing oil


    And your last sentence mentions slapping pistons knocking with a loose engine, which is what we've been talking about back on page 2 and 3. Just sayin'

  9. #69
    Member Jay37's Avatar
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    I said "that doesn't burn at least a quart of oil a race and literally blow out of the the valve cover breathers"
    You said "but if you have oil spewing out of the valve covers and pistons knocking, using a quart of oil per race, I'd start looking for a new builder."

    I'll break it down so every understands, air blows by the piston rings, because of the large ring gap and I will try to word this right... lets say FREE MOVING parts. then the air escapes the crankcase through the valve cover breathers, taking some oil with it. Over a 50 lap race so lets say 50 MINUTES, of FULL THROTTLE you will burn a quart of oil.

    I said "but you can't hear the slapping and knocking over open headers"

    You said "I'd start looking for a new builder. Loose pistons in the bore is not how HP is made."
    whens the last time you heard a LATE MODEL (they are the big boys at the hundreds of race tracks across this great country) with full exaust?
    Last edited by Jay37; 12-15-2010 at 04:02 PM.

  10. #70
    Member Jay37's Avatar
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    "that doesn't burn at least a quart of oil a race and literally blow out of the the valve cover breathers" the AND is after the oil sorry i didn't use easier english.

    So back to the engineer stuff that jiveass had, dealing with the piston slap post this has turned into.

    I AGREE THAT IF A RACE ENGINE HAD EXUAST YOU WOULD HERE IT "RATTLE" alot of stock car, mud truck, rally car, pro truck. kinda race.
    not all but alot.

    thats what all this about, rattling pistons right? so yeah he is kinda being a smart ass by saying the loose piston is better, but I can see his point. and I don't mean sloppy just enouph to let a little air by and loosen things up, yeah you could never do that in a car with egr or what but if your vented to atmosphere WHY NOT?

    The engineer said
    "is possible that you are hearing piston noise from an engine that is on the "high limit" for piston clearance so that it makes some noise cold. The good news is that the condition is harmless and that engine is probably a little more powerful (due to less friction) than a "quiet" counterpart. The bad news is that...it makes noise cold."..."Racing engines do not have the pin offset and thus the pistons slap like mad...but no one hears them over the open headers.
    The noise is an annoyance but will not hurt anything and the engine is fine."
    I see truth in that, mainly in HIGH END drag racing, with the "slap like mad" do to yes the engine eating itself after a few passes. \
    Last edited by Jay37; 12-15-2010 at 05:18 PM.

  11. #71
    Member Jay37's Avatar
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    So yeah this is a REALLY fine line, kinda assodine.

    but I just don't limit a rattling race engine to pistons, and would not be suprised if a stock car had a full exaust you would hear "PISTON SLAP" and its fine, I thought the engineer hit it DEAD ON.

  12. #72
    Member Jay37's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    The discussion was centered around loose pistons and piston slap, if you go back to jiveass and redbirds posts you'll see what that was derived from.
    Clearances and tolerances inside a short block are no big secret, there is nothing to hide there. Loose?? Tight?? Really not much difference between the two, you are talking thousanths.
    What is your definition of a race engine anyway?? A certain HP goal??

    I'm not here to measure dick sizes, so I'm not going to get into experiences, I'll just say I've been lucky enough to have been around the best who compete in the engine masters challenge. I don't claim to know it all, but I'm always willing to pass around usefull information since the internet is cluttered with crap.
    I don't expect you or anyone to listen, and don't care for the most part.
    Loose?? Tight?? fuck it, thousands don't mean much anyway, it's not like were talking about piston slap and such lol. you would have a big block. Maybe one day I can hang around the best who compete in the engine masters challenge, talk shit to kids on a forum, and have my performance car be one that my wife can drive. After I get done doing all that bad ass stuff I think I would like to act like I know about building race engines.

    Until that lucky day comes I'll stick with older whiskey, faster cars, and younger women.
    Last edited by Jay37; 12-15-2010 at 08:22 PM.

  13. #73
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay37 View Post
    Loose?? Tight?? fuck it, thousands don't mean much anyway, it's not like were talking about piston slap and such lol. you would have a big block. Maybe one day I can hang around the best who compete in the engine masters challenge, talk shit to kids on a forum, and have my performance car be one that my wife can drive. After I get done doing all that bad ass stuff I think I would like to act like I know about building race engines.

    Until that lucky day comes I'll stick with older whiskey, faster cars, and younger women.

  14. #74
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    Wow!

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    its short but its skinny. jiveass's Avatar
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    come one now, lets keep it civil..

  16. #76
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    I don't know,,,,,was that supposed to be an attempt of sarcasm?

    No worries Jive, some people will just never get it.

  17. #77
    Senior Member bluehawk2000's Avatar
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    midnight blue
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    I for see someone getting some ink, I mean if you cannot respect what ones experience with vehicles and the advice that they give out then technically you wont last here very long so chill out for a min I mean you just start posting on here it looks like.

  18. #78
    Impounded
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    things get a little heated sometimes on these sites...

  19. #79
    Senior Member bluehawk2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BashamWS6 View Post
    things get a little heated sometimes on these sites...
    Yes they do but it was getting off topic and somebody got their butthole hurt just needs to be taken back to the original topic. I honestly dont give a damn who says who is better working on cars who gives a rats ass.

  20. #80
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    true. well i dont know jack shit so..i stay out of it.
    i wish our shop class wasnt worthless...

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