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This is a discussion on Gasoline within the Internal Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Originally Posted by Goat-E I am curious as to what you guys consider "watered down gas". Water and gasoline do ...

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    King 0f n00bz shady milkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goat-E View Post
    I am curious as to what you guys consider "watered down gas". Water and gasoline do not mix. Water is heavier than gasoline and falls to the bottom of the tank. Where I live any water detected to be more than an inch and a half and we are to call into dispatch and they will direct us to another station with the fuel. We do NOT drop into tanks with any greater amount. This is a history lesson for now in Florida, all gasoline has a 10% ethanol blend. Ethanol is grain alcohol. It can be made from sugar, corn, switchgrass, wheat ect. When you put "Dry gas" in your tank to make the water mix with gasoline and be carried out of your engine that is Ethanol or some other type of alcohol. We now test with a reformulated paste for an unsafe blend/amount of water in the fuel. If this is detected we immediately call dispatch and are redirected and the tanks are purged. Most stations these days have a computer that gauges the fuel level in the tank and other than deliveries the tanks are never opened. This computer also gauges the water level (if it is separated and on the bottom) as well as temperature. Fuel tanker drivers are about the only people that come in contact with the tanks. Most owners of stations and employees are too lazy to touch them. Believe me it's like pulling teeth to get a manual tank reading from these people. I can get suspended or fired for dropping into contaminated fuel. There are agents that circulate regularly through stations and test the fuel for contamination and proper octane levels for the type of fuel.
    Now for the real clincher ethanol is an octane booster. When we load gas it says on the bill of lading 84 octane gasoline then when mixed with ethanol this brings the octane up to 87. There are several things/elements that can raise octane but ethanol is one of the best. Pure ethanol has a RON rating of 116, xylene has a RON of 117, toluene has a RON of 114. Those are your three highest octane values. The things that are going to cause a "bad gas" situation are the lack of anti knock additives with impurities that have not been refined out of the base fuel. Lead used to be added as an anti knock agent but since being outlawed companies have been forced to develop other means. I would love to give a whole dissertation on the history of fuel but they make SCHOOLS for that. FYI the original Model T Ford could be adapted to run on ethanol but thanks to prohibition and John David Rockefeller (owner of Standard oil. His grandson David owns JP Morgan Chase and Citicorp banks and is quite the political meddler and a globalist. OH how I could go on about this scumbag!) we now run mainly petroleum based fuels.
    A word to the wise . . . LEARN SOME HISTORY PEOPLE!!! Anything else? Now tell me about this "Watered down gasoline" it sounds fascinating. (I wholly admit to being a brainy prick and I'm proud)
    dick head

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    Senior Member 00LS12LS6Z28's Avatar
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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goat-E View Post
    The initial difference that you may experience with an E-10 blend is due to your gas tank having some residual water that will blend with the gasoline but is usually gone in 2 or 3 tankfulls. There is also the EFI computer remapping to the difference in power availability. Ethanol has less energy by volume but can be run under higher compression due to it's knock resistance. Ethanol and various derivatives are run exclusively in a multitude of high performance applications. It will get you less mileage per gallon but can be run in a much more radical application.
    Unfortunately Ethanol like many other alcohol based fluids are very corrosive. Eats at everything in the fuel system as well as in the engine. E85 is even worse as it's 85% verses 10%.
    When we had the race car we switched to alchohol on the last season we raced the car. Man what a nitemare that shit is. Not only does fuel intake increase dramatically,,,,maintainance was an even higher priority. We had to frequently change the oil due to condensation build up, it attracts water like crazy. Any time the car was parked for any length of time I had to switch to a gas carb and run the engine for a minute or so to flush all that alcohol out of the engine. It was just high maintainance stuff that I was glad to rid myself of.

    Now granted 10% mix isn't alot, but any at all in my book is a bad thing. And now are stupid government is trying to regulate 20%. You want to talk poor gas mileage and higher maintainance,,,just wait.

    Like I said,,,gas is total crap compared to even 2-3 years ago,,,and it's only going to get worse.

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    Turgid Member Goat-E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Unfortunately Ethanol like many other alcohol based fluids are very corrosive. Eats at everything in the fuel system as well as in the engine. E85 is even worse as it's 85% verses 10%.
    When we had the race car we switched to alchohol on the last season we raced the car. Man what a nitemare that shit is. Not only does fuel intake increase dramatically,,,,maintainance was an even higher priority. We had to frequently change the oil due to condensation build up, it attracts water like crazy. Any time the car was parked for any length of time I had to switch to a gas carb and run the engine for a minute or so to flush all that alcohol out of the engine. It was just high maintainance stuff that I was glad to rid myself of.

    Now granted 10% mix isn't alot, but any at all in my book is a bad thing. And now are stupid government is trying to regulate 20%. You want to talk poor gas mileage and higher maintainance,,,just wait.

    Like I said,,,gas is total crap compared to even 2-3 years ago,,,and it's only going to get worse.
    I can guarantee you there is no watered down gasoline in any stations that I deliver to.
    All substances used in internal combustion engines are corrosive in one form or another. (try to tell me gasoline isn't corrosive)The trick is using materials in the fuel system that are corrosion resistant to that particular substance. Although there is less power by volume in ethanol, as production becomes greater and less expensive, the lower power should be offset by the lower price. (it takes more energy to explore for, refine, transport and extract petroleum) Not to mention the renewability. Ethanol is actually cleaner burning and less carbon producing than gasoline so internal engine carbon buildup should be much lower. Brazil has been running E85 for years now, almost exclusively. General motors designs vehicles that effectively use E85. They just don't sell them where you are. We have a large affluent South American population where I live and people import their personal flexfuel vehicles. I see them in Aventura all the time.
    Last edited by Goat-E; 08-11-2009 at 12:43 PM.

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    Turgid Member Goat-E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady milkman View Post
    dick head
    Could you please highlight the Brainy Prick portion? Thank you!

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    King 0f n00bz shady milkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goat-E View Post
    Could you please highlight the Brainy Prick portion? Thank you!
    i know..i read that..and the urge to post dick head was too much

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goat-E View Post
    I can guarantee you there is no watered down gasoline in any stations that I deliver to.
    All substances used in internal combustion engines are corrosive in one form or another. (try to tell me gasoline isn't corrosive)The trick is using materials in the fuel system that are corrosion resistant to that particular substance. Although there is less power by volume in ethanol, as production becomes greater and less expensive, the lower power should be offset by the lower price. (it takes more energy to explore for, refine, transport and extract petroleum) Not to mention the renewability. Ethanol is actually cleaner burning and less carbon producing than gasoline so internal engine carbon buildup should be much lower. Brazil has been running E85 for years now, almost exclusively. General motors designs vehicles that effectively use E85. They just don't sell them where you are. We have a large affluent South American population where I live and people import their personal flexfuel vehicles. I see them in Aventura all the time.
    I'm not complaining about any watered down gas. Actually never ran into that problem. What I don't like is the ethanol mix.
    They sell flex fuel vehicles everywhere in the US. And there are a few E85 stations.
    Fact is, it is currently taking more energy to produce the E85 at this point. More so because it's still new, that may change with time. There are many other drawbacks to it that I shouldn't get into,,,but there is no denying ethanol is corrosive, more so than gasoline. I don't care for it, don't care how clean it burns.

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    Senior Member TransAm11973's Avatar
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    so hess is really that bad? I have been using hess for a while and had no problems.

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    Turgid Member Goat-E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    I'm not complaining about any watered down gas. Actually never ran into that problem. What I don't like is the ethanol mix.
    They sell flex fuel vehicles everywhere in the US. And there are a few E85 stations.
    Fact is, it is currently taking more energy to produce the E85 at this point. More so because it's still new, that may change with time. There are many other drawbacks to it that I shouldn't get into,,,but there is no denying ethanol is corrosive, more so than gasoline. I don't care for it, don't care how clean it burns.
    It's a variation on corrosive properties. We transport 100% ethanol from rail to port and from depot to vender. It ate the seals in the trucks up, no doubt. We changed the seals to a different compound and now we have no problems. I can find out what the new seals are if you like. I'm here to help.

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    Turgid Member Goat-E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TransAm11973 View Post
    so hess is really that bad? I have been using hess for a while and had no problems.
    It could be a regional/brokering anomaly. Down here it's crap. Shell/Mobile/Chevron as best as I can tell keep their process in house and are really uptight about their quality standards. It also has a lot to do with formulation,addditives,blend,refining ect. Here Hess is a low grade gas.

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    Senior Member Z28_Driver's Avatar
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    The advantages of ethanol removing water from the tank sound legit, however as it is alcohol it removes the water from the tank by bonding with the water. Up here we have winter and over the winter many f-bodies hide in garages along with garden tractors and classic cars. Over the course of winter the available moisture in the air is drawn to the ethanol, causing more water to be in the gas. This is one of the reasons to store vehicles with a full tank.
    I make no claims to be an expert on fuel. I have never delivered it. However a friend's father does own four gas stations in this area and the "boy scout" morals of the delivery drivers in Florida are no where to be seen among the drivers of this area. They are Sunoco stations by the way.

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z28_Driver View Post
    The advantages of ethanol removing water from the tank sound legit, however as it is alcohol it removes the water from the tank by bonding with the water. Up here we have winter and over the winter many f-bodies hide in garages along with garden tractors and classic cars. Over the course of winter the available moisture in the air is drawn to the ethanol, causing more water to be in the gas. This is one of the reasons to store vehicles with a full tank.
    I make no claims to be an expert on fuel. I have never delivered it. However a friend's father does own four gas stations in this area and the "boy scout" morals of the delivery drivers in Florida are no where to be seen among the drivers of this area. They are Sunoco stations by the way.
    That's what I was trying to explain earlier, although I used an extreme case as an example, 10% ethanol is still ethanol. It's especially bad for us folk that have classic cars that do alot of sitting.

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    Turgid Member Goat-E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z28_Driver View Post
    The advantages of ethanol removing water from the tank sound legit, however as it is alcohol it removes the water from the tank by bonding with the water. Up here we have winter and over the winter many f-bodies hide in garages along with garden tractors and classic cars. Over the course of winter the available moisture in the air is drawn to the ethanol, causing more water to be in the gas. This is one of the reasons to store vehicles with a full tank.
    I make no claims to be an expert on fuel. I have never delivered it. However a friend's father does own four gas stations in this area and the "boy scout" morals of the delivery drivers in Florida are no where to be seen among the drivers of this area. They are Sunoco stations by the way.
    I am from Pennsylvania originally and I thought that in the winter that humidity levels drop way low. Even down here surrounded by water the humidity levels run into the 35 to 50% range when it gets . . . cool. I know that in Pa. ethanol is not mandatory but an option.
    I never spoke for drivers other than myself. I said what we are supposed to do. I am strict with myself. We have our share of suspect drivers much as any industry but you can be sure that they are out the door if found out. It's more a matter of company policy. Our punishments for infractions a fierce. A weeks suspension without pay and instant termination are not uncommon. If you suspect any shenanigans you can report them to either the EPA or your state agriculture commissioner. I personally hope that you would. You do not play games in this business.
    Last edited by Goat-E; 08-13-2009 at 12:48 AM.

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    Turgid Member Goat-E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    That's what I was trying to explain earlier, although I used an extreme case as an example, 10% ethanol is still ethanol. It's especially bad for us folk that have classic cars that do alot of sitting.
    Although I feel for your plight, there is nothing you can do.(unless you can decrease the world population thereby decreasing demand) Change is inevitable and there is no stopping it. If it weren't ethanol it would be something else. Our day dispatcher is from South Dakota and says they've been running ethanol there there for 20 years. If the automotive industry started out using ethanol you wouldn't know the difference and we wouldn't be having this conversation. You can thank J.D. Rockefeller for that.

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Ya it's a sad world,,,too many activists that think they know whats good for everyone and our new government is just going to follow along. A real shame. It's not going to get any better either.

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    Turgid Member Goat-E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Ya it's a sad world,,,too many activists that think they know whats good for everyone and our new government is just going to follow along. A real shame. It's not going to get any better either.
    IMO all the governments since Kennedy got assassinated haven't done anybody any favors. WE GOT HIJACKED my friend.

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goat-E View Post
    IMO all the governments since Kennedy got assassinated haven't done anybody any favors. WE GOT HIJACKED my friend.
    Yep, you are right. Been going down hill since the 70's. I can always hope, so far none of them offer anything that interests me. And now it's another 4 year wait for something better, at least I hope.

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    Turgid Member Goat-E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Yep, you are right. Been going down hill since the 70's. I can always hope, so far none of them offer anything that interests me. And now it's another 4 year wait for something better, at least I hope.
    It won't be better IMO it will be the same old BS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goat-E View Post
    I am from Pennsylvania originally and I thought that in the winter that humidity levels drop way low. Even down here surrounded by water the humidity levels run into the 35 to 50% range when it gets . . . cool. .
    Usually you are right. The humidity does drop low in the winter. Over the last several years we haev had some wet winters that have been plagued by many freeze- thaw cycles. Other than completely filling the tank or using a water remover is there anything that can be done to reduce the amount of water formation?
    I live next to the Maumee River in Ohio and have seen some of that fog that freezes on everything. Its not frost as it freezes looking like freezing rain. I have had the best results from the tractors by leaving no gas in the tank, they are dry in the spring.

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    Turgid Member Goat-E's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z28_Driver View Post
    Usually you are right. The humidity does drop low in the winter. Over the last several years we haev had some wet winters that have been plagued by many freeze- thaw cycles. Other than completely filling the tank or using a water remover is there anything that can be done to reduce the amount of water formation?
    I live next to the Maumee River in Ohio and have seen some of that fog that freezes on everything. Its not frost as it freezes looking like freezing rain. I have had the best results from the tractors by leaving no gas in the tank, they are dry in the spring.
    I explained a little further up the thread that dry gas additive is alcohol. I know this for a fact because when I was doing fleet service we used to put it in the fuel at every service. This being said I would believe that an E-10 blend would do the job but it would depend on the volume of water that is blended with the fuel. The problem with water is that it does not compress and screws up the combustion. It can also blow out head gaskets. (I know this from personal experience) Since having heard about this issue I thought that putting a desiccant bag in the filler tube might do the trick but this is just a theory. The bag would have to be of fair size and you would need one of the newer style filler tubes so that it wouldn't fall into the tank. Now let me stipulate again "THIS IS JUST A THEORY" I do not know whether or not the gasoline fumes would have a negative interaction with the desiccant material. I also know that most desiccants are made from silicone which is finely ground sand and that would be 1 step before glass and glass is used to store alcohol so . . . . If it works I better get some royalties of of the freakin Patent!
    I would think that the safest bet would be to just run the car low in the tank then in the spring throw in some dry gas and go fill up at the nearest station.
    I just had another idea. Gas caps are designed to breathe so as not to cause a vacuum so maybe covering the fill with a non breathing material might create a buffer between the fuel and the moisture. Of course there might be another point of entry as far as vacuum avoidance is concerned so it might be all for naught. Although in my personal experience I've never witnessed any but I haven't dropped every gas tank made either. I have seen some over fill drain tubes but they are usually external and in the fill well.
    That's about all I've got for now.
    Last edited by Goat-E; 08-17-2009 at 03:14 AM.

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