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Camshaft Degree Question

This is a discussion on Camshaft Degree Question within the Internal Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Originally Posted by Mr. Luos Something doesn't seem to sound right, but I can't put my finger on it. Is ...

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    Member 408WS6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Luos
    Something doesn't seem to sound right, but I can't put my finger on it.

    Is it running REAL rich?? Backfiring at all??
    What length pushrods?
    The length of the pushrods are 7.400". It doesn't backfire, but sometimes it does stammer at higher rpm. Thats makes me think the injectors might be the problem. I had it tuned by a reputable shop here in Houston so I'm pretty sure of the tune (although I haven't completely ruled that out either).

    They said they tuned it alittle on the rich side but it should be ok.

    The codes that the PCM were throwing were: knock sensor code and O2 sensor code. I was told the knock sensors would simly quit working and not affect the engine. The tuner disabled the O2 sensors Not sure what to think about that...

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    Your front O2's need to be on.
    Rears can be deleted.

    What lifters???
    I bet you need a slightly shorter pushrod.

    See if you can get a fuel pressure gauge on the rail. See what you see...idle and WOT. Fuel pump???
    2008 Trailblazer SS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Luos
    Your front O2's need to be on.
    Rears can be deleted.

    What lifters???
    I bet you need a slightly shorter pushrod.

    See if you can get a fuel pressure gauge on the rail. See what you see...idle and WOT. Fuel pump???
    The lifters are crane hyd roller lifters. I need to get a fuel pressure guage. I added an walbro inline fuel pump not long ago so I should have good fuel pressure. But better be sure and get a fuel pressure gauge though..

    Any other ideas?

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    Slow'er'Ass Mr. Luos's Avatar
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    I did a quick search for the installed height of the Cranes...but didn't find anything.
    Are they the exact same height as the stock lifters??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Luos
    I did a quick search for the installed height of the Cranes...but didn't find anything.
    Are they the exact same height as the stock lifters??
    Yup, they are exactly the same. I really don't think its the length of the pushrod either. AFR has stated that 7.400" (stock length) pushrods will work fine with those heads. As I stated earlier, the heads were milled .030". But I installed 2 shims under each rocker that were .015" each to compensate for the .030" milled off the head. I then adjusted the lifters from zero lash to the torque specification on the rocker arm bolt. It varied from 1/3 turn to 1/2turn on all of the rocker arms. I forget exactly how much preload this was but remember checking that it was within the acceptable range (1/4 turn to 3/4 turn). I double checked and triple checked all of the rocker arm bolts to make sure that they were torqued to spec.

    In other words, I don't think its anything in my valve train that causing the loss of power except maybe the camshaft was ground wrong or was installed incorrectly. Given that it was a *reputable* engine builder I want to think he did it right. But stranger things have happened...

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    Have you talked to the shop??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Luos
    Have you talked to the shop??
    Not yet, But it looks like thats my next step.

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    Yeah...they are good about helping out there.

    Have you checked the rockers recently??? Make sure they are all still tight?

    Something didn't sound right to me on your idle clip. Tapping I think.
    Does it sound smooth in person???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Luos
    Yeah...they are good about helping out there.

    Have you checked the rockers recently??? Make sure they are all still tight?

    Something didn't sound right to me on your idle clip. Tapping I think.
    Does it sound smooth in person???
    I'll check the rockers. Good idea. But that tapping sound is actually the headers leaking at the collector. Sounds bad. I've been meaning to get that fixed. Thats why you don't hear it when the hood is raised...

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    Quote Originally Posted by 408WS6
    I had a motor built and I am seriously questioning whether the cam was degreed properly. Its a 408 w/ AFR 225 heads LS6 intake (I know, I need a FAST) etc etc. Car only put down 380 rwhp. The low end feels good but fades pretty quick getting closer to 6k rpms. Something is seriously wrong. That combo should put down 500 rwhp or close to it.


    I'm determined to get to the bottom of this!!!
    Sounds like your down a cylinder to lose that much power...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SLED28
    Sounds like your down a cylinder to lose that much power...

    I'm wondering if one of my injectors is clogged. I'll pull em off this weekend and check em.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 408WS6
    I'm wondering if one of my injectors is clogged. I'll pull em off this weekend and check em.
    Even if you just unplug 1 at a time at idle to see if there is any change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dyno355
    Even if you just unplug 1 at a time at idle to see if there is any change.

    Good idea, thanks

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    I would check wires or plugs. if a injector was bad or clogged and you were revving it , it would melt a piston probably!

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    You said that you were getting knock and the tuner said that it would not effect the motor. That is wrong every degree of knock that you get the computer will pull timing. So that is one reason that you are getting low number. You also said that he turned off the o2 sensors. i hope it was the rear sensors not the fronts. That will also cause power loss. You also need to see when and why your are getting knock. It could be that the motor is going lean. You can check for knock with a tech two or snapon or other scanner. Also check your air fuel ration as well. I hope this helps will help you more if you need it. I built ls1's for a living. I can given you any help that i can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dyno355
    Even with a long stylus dial indicator down the pushrod hole???
    that is how you do it, and mount the degree wheel on the crank w/o the oilpump (maybe you can do with dunno). If it sits right, and it should, then you could have a chain stretch.
    Or you can have to hard valve springs that squeezes the oil out of the lifters, that i have tried, and it was the top end power that went away.
    This is only might´s, i havent wrenched the engine so i donno for sure.
    When you find and solve the problem, there should be 500+ on the motor there, please let us know what it was.
    DoC

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    I second what Nasty TA said. What you said about the knock sensor doesn't make sense. If the tuner set the PCM to ignore it, that's a Bad Thing. If not, then when it measures knock, it will keep retarding timing until it goes away. If there's something on the engine that rattles, and it's getting false knock sensing (fix that exhaust leak), they might have set you up to run over-rich with retarded timing in an attempt to make it go away. With different injectors installed, there is a whole new dimension to be set up in the PCM tables, it adds to the tuner's job. Before taking that engine apart, I would hook up with someone who has a scanner, and log it, watch for knock, retard, mixture, timing settings. Look and see what tune they left you with. Have someone with a little experience check over the VE and timing tables. All that stuff has to be right before the engine can make power.

    If there really is legitimate pinging or detonation going on, that's another story too. What compression ratio do you figure you ended up with? What octane gas?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nasty TA
    You said that you were getting knock and the tuner said that it would not effect the motor. That is wrong every degree of knock that you get the computer will pull timing. So that is one reason that you are getting low number. You also said that he turned off the o2 sensors. i hope it was the rear sensors not the fronts. That will also cause power loss. You also need to see when and why your are getting knock. It could be that the motor is going lean. You can check for knock with a tech two or snapon or other scanner. Also check your air fuel ration as well. I hope this helps will help you more if you need it. I built ls1's for a living. I can given you any help that i can.
    Hey thanks Nasty. I appreciate. sorry for the delayed response. I haven't checked back here in several days. Anyway, that all makes sense. Sounds like I need to find a new tuner

    What I did was check all of my wiring harnesses and found that the main plug that connects to the wiring harness for the coils was not snapped on all of the way (on both sides!). I snapped them on and the car seems to run fine now as far as misfiring goes. All of the codes it was throwing went away. The check engine light went off and I even had it scanned at Autozone last night and it was showing no codes

    But I'm still worried that my tuner may have disabled the knock sensors and/or the O2 sensors which common sense tells me is no good.

    The 02 sensors he turned off were the ones that are at the side of each lower collector of the header. I take is these are the rear?

    Even though the misfiring has seemed to gone away, I still want to invesigate the knock sensors and 02 sensors because the car still doesn't feel like its making the power it should.

    Thanks for all the help!!!!!!
    Last edited by 408WS6; 06-22-2006 at 06:43 PM.

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