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Cam and stall...

This is a discussion on Cam and stall... within the Internal Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; 22 posts, still learning. Sorry, felt you were attacking my ride..All is good.....

  1. #41
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    22 posts, still learning. Sorry, felt you were attacking my ride..All is good..

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    I personally have a texas speed 228R cam (.228/.228 .588lift 112 LSA) milled 241 heads, .042" with a thicker .052" cometic gasket I am at roughly 10.9:1 Static Compression ratio. Through a 3800 stall and built a4 I put down 377 rwhp and run 7.5 at 92 mph in the 1/8 which calculates to an 11.7 at about 116-117 1/4 mile time, my car is fun and daily driven the dyno I took it to tends to read about 10- 15 hp lower, so my car is around the 390 mark I have 5.3 heads sitting in my room to get ported and polished and new valve springs and I should be up around the 410 mark after the heads, hopefully.

    First get the bolt-ons done and at least get the stall in the car and get used to the driveability, then after a bit get the cam/heads and save up and do it all at once, i am doing it again due to impatience.

    To the guy who said no noticeable difference with bolt-ons I think the tune sucks or your car does, I have seen a lot more than .2 at the track from bolt-ons, I have seem closer to .4 and some instances .6, not trying to be a dick but something is wrong there if your car did not gain much in its E.T's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LS1Adam84 View Post
    To the guy who said no noticeable difference with bolt-ons I think the tune sucks or your car does, I have seen a lot more than .2 at the track from bolt-ons, I have seem closer to .4 and some instances .6, not trying to be a dick but something is wrong there if your car did not gain much in its E.T's.
    The track times were different days, different conditions, at tracks in totally different parts of the country so e.t.s are not really comparable.

    But the dyno runs were done on consecutive days, temp was only 2 degrees difference, humidity and other factors were nearly identical.

    Stock #s were 306hp with (I'm guessing at stock tq from memory) 327ftlbs
    Bolt ons were 329hp and 345ftlb

    I was quite disappointed, especially with tuning not gaining any peak hp or tq over the first (untuned pass). It did however seem to smooth things out under the graph and give me a SLIGHTLY higher line on the graph in the mid/upper rpms before peak #s

    I have no reason to doubt the tuner (other than disappointing results) he's been at it for 15 years, specializes in vettes, and attracts rare street rods and muscle cars from about 200 miles in every direction.....possibly because he's the only reputable tuner around with a dyno. (that I know of)

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    Sorry to get off topic on the OPs thread. It just seems I have to explain my comments about bolt on mods.

    Again, I think they are a good idea for the sound alone, and they make a necessary and solid foundation for later mods.....in my experience they just won't satisfy someone looking for a real increase in power or speed. (Add a cam, heads, steeper gears, or a stall, along with the bolt ons, and then I think you'll get a good "noticable" change)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Intrepidman View Post
    Sorry to get off topic on the OPs thread. It just seems I have to explain my comments about bolt on mods.

    Again, I think they are a good idea for the sound alone, and they make a necessary and solid foundation for later mods.....in my experience they just won't satisfy someone looking for a real increase in power or speed. (Add a cam, heads, steeper gears, or a stall, along with the bolt ons, and then I think you'll get a good "noticable" change)
    Im not trying to bash you or get off topic, but just because your car in perticular performed poorley to bolt on's doesnt mean the vast majority of LS1's will also. A good set of headers, catback, ls6 intake and a tune should get you as much as if not more than a cam. Those 4 areas really choke up our cars the most. The majority of the power will be unlocked once you get rid of those things.

    A well built car (heads, cam, stall, gears, bolt ons etc...) will do more than just a "noticable" change. It will take off a good 2-3 seconds off your et.
    "Life is to short to drive a slow car"

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    Quote Originally Posted by rajiv1998 View Post
    You will need bolt ons before h/c.
    No you don't. I don't know where you guys come up with this stuff that bolt ons are a must before getting a cam or heads. LS1 exhaust manifolds flow decent and you will see a significant increase in power from only a cam or H/C combo, much more than you will from full bolt ons. Will you be seeing the full potential of course not. Is it a good idea to do suspension work and exhaust first yes but it's not a necessity plenty of guys out there putting down good numbers on cam only. Some people don't want long tubes for clearance or emissions reasons.

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    LSX whore allbaugh_04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomolos1 View Post
    I'm new to the LS1s. What are the free mods?
    One is bypassing the coolant line on the throttle body.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rajiv1998 View Post
    A well built car (heads, cam, stall, gears, bolt ons etc...) will do more than just a "noticable" change. It will take off a good 2-3 seconds off your et.
    I actually just meant any One of those things along with bolt ons would be a nice change....I agree with you in general, many F-bodies may respond better than mine to bolt ons, I just didn't want to get the OP's hopes up too high.

    As for 2-3 seconds off with the full package...now you're getting my hopes up :-D By spring I'll pretty much be there, (plus suspension mods) and if I can manage anywhere close to 2 seconds off without drag radials I will be an Extremely happy man.


    Now for the OP, I've been doing a lot of reading on heads, and Any head/cam package (even the most economical one from texas speed) should give you a nice bump up in power. But from what I can tell Trick Flow 215cc ported heads are the king and AFRs are also very nice. Matching that with something like the 224/224 or 228/228 cam seems pretty popular without being too risky, but I personally have my eye on one of the new LSR Comp Cams in the high 22x range for intake and low 23x exhuast with huge lift over 0.610 and roughly a 113 lsa.
    Its not supposed to be the biggest Peak #'s cam but it should pull hard across a wide rpm band and get me well into the 400+hp range to which you referenced earlier.

    I haven't been able to get much if any real world input from people with these cams, But the cam tech at Comp recommended it for me as a compromise between a drag strip/autoX car that also DD's and completely independantly a tech at Thunder Racing recommended a cam with nearly identical specs (again after hearing what I planned to use the car for)

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    Quote Originally Posted by rc74racer View Post
    No you don't. I don't know where you guys come up with this stuff that bolt ons are a must before getting a cam or heads. LS1 exhaust manifolds flow decent and you will see a significant increase in power from only a cam or H/C combo, much more than you will from full bolt ons. Will you be seeing the full potential of course not. Is it a good idea to do suspension work and exhaust first yes but it's not a necessity plenty of guys out there putting down good numbers on cam only. Some people don't want long tubes for clearance or emissions reasons.
    LOL are you joking? I dont know anyone who has a cam and is still on stock manifolds. Putting a cam into a basically stock car will be like breathing out of a straw. You want your engine breathing freely as possible before putting a cam inside. Maybe its not a must, but your not gonna maxamize the potential unless you have bolt ons. Do you honestly think a STOCK car with a cam will make more than a full bolt on car? There is a member on this site with full bolt on's and hes making 370 ft lbs of torque and great hp numbers. There have been cases of ppl putting cams on stock manifolds but the vast majority of ppl (maybe even every one on this site) knows in order to bring out the true power of a cam, you WILL NEED BOLT ON's.
    Last edited by rajiv1998; 08-10-2010 at 11:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rajiv1998 View Post
    LOL are you joking? I dont know anyone who has a cam and is still on stock manifolds. Putting a cam into a basically stock car will be like breathing out of a straw. You want your engine breathing freely as possible before putting a cam inside. Maybe its not a must, but your not gonna maxamize the potential unless you have bolt ons. Do you honestly think a STOCK car with a cam will make more than a full bolt on car? There is a member on this site with full bolt on's and hes making 370 ft lbs of torque and great hp numbers. There have been cases of ppl putting cams on stock manifolds but the vast majority of ppl (maybe even every one on this site) knows in order to bring out the true power of a cam, you WILL NEED BOLT ON's.
    There are plenty of people on this site and tech that are running cam only with numbers higher than any bolt on only car. I said you will not realize the full potential of a cam or H/C combo without a free flowing exhaust system you must not have read my entire post. To say need implies it's a must it's just an option just like going without it is.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by rc74racer View Post
    There are plenty of people on this site and tech that are running cam only with numbers higher than any bolt on only car. I said you will not realize the full potential of a cam or H/C combo without a free flowing exhaust system you must not have read my entire post. To say need implies it's a must it's just an option just like going without it is.
    Cam only means just a cam and bolt ons. Not a cam in a stock car.

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    ^^^

    It is a good idea to do so, I would say not a necessity but I also did it all at once after having the stall in my car already then I did cam, heads, headers, y pipe, injectors, ls6 oil pump, and timing chain.

    Also it is a good idea when doing a cam install to get a high volume oil pump and timing chain set, you might as well since you are down there already and it does help out quite a bit for longevity of the life of the motor to have those parts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rajiv1998 View Post
    Cam only means just a cam and bolt ons. Not a cam in a stock car.
    Now you are defining what cam only means what are you a fucking dictionary? When I say cam only I mean just an f'n cam I don't care what you think it means. I can read a post and I know when people are talking about a stock car with a cam versus a cam with bolts ons. As stated there are people out there running just a cam and the numbers i've seen are better than any bolt on car. I'm not advocating this as the way to go at all. Just that it can be done. As far as full potential is concerned you will need a good set of heads as well to get the most out of a cam swap. I personally would get my drivetrain, suspension and exhaust done before doing a cam and I would do heads at the same time as well. However that is what I would do not what has to be done.

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    I'm just saying because you said cam only means just a cam and nothing else. No bolt ons or anything. Whatever, I'm done with this convo. A same debate has happened a few weeks back and the mods locked the thread and I'm guessing they will do the same pretty soon because this thread is going in a differant direction than the question the OP asked.

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    what happened to the original poster ? sticker shock at the price to get 450 rwhp. just do a stall , catback and lid for now same up for the cam and heads.

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    Original question was what cam and stall, this is to generic a question to be answered with any certainty. If you want a nice street car, get a 2800-3000 stall tci convertor, if its auto, leave the 323's or go to the 373's either or, I did 373's and truly liked the 323's on the street a little better. Get a decent 550- 585 lift cam compatible duration and a lid, headers and tune.. You will have yourself a fun street ride with plenty of horsepower. This is not a track combo obviously, if that is your objective then start thinking more money. If the cars an auto, get the transcooler, its cheap and good insurance. If its a convertible definately do the shock tower brace and the sub fram connectors.. makes a world of difference, go over a railroad track with the top down and no connectors or shock tower brace and the car will shake your nut sack out of your speedos. Get the two items I mentioned and keep your nutbag intact.. Simple enough? Lets all stop the nonsense over who is right, there is no right really.

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    ive got ttops and subframes were one of the best mods. changed the car completely.

  18. #58
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    About the free mods you can knock the honeycomb filter out of the maf and cut the bottom out of the air box right in front of the condenser for alot better air flow to the filter and you can by pass the coolant hos that flows through the throttle body those are the only free mods that i know of if any one else know any more please enlighten me

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    Quote Originally Posted by rajiv1998 View Post
    LOL are you joking? I dont know anyone who has a cam and is still on stock manifolds. Putting a cam into a basically stock car will be like breathing out of a straw. You want your engine breathing freely as possible before putting a cam inside. Maybe its not a must, but your not gonna maxamize the potential unless you have bolt ons. Do you honestly think a STOCK car with a cam will make more than a full bolt on car? There is a member on this site with full bolt on's and hes making 370 ft lbs of torque and great hp numbers. There have been cases of ppl putting cams on stock manifolds but the vast majority of ppl (maybe even every one on this site) knows in order to bring out the true power of a cam, you WILL NEED BOLT ON's.
    For the record, there are camshafts specifically ground for LS engines that run the stock manifolds. They have gone by names such as Cheater cams, Stealth cams, etc.....
    For those that can't use long tubes for emissions reason or many other reasons such as wanting to keep a stock and stealthy look when you pop the hood.
    And there are plenty of LS motors out there running these cams with a set of heads on stock manifolds and making 400 rwhp, idle as smooth as a stocker and make people scratch their heads . Nothing wrong with that approach at all. Ever here of pure stock racing or the FAST series??? You just need to get out more, that's all


    To the original poster, don't know what direction to suggest, many here have given some great ideas.
    You can make 400 rwhp a number of different ways, on the motor only, or any number of power adders.
    On the motor only you can spend less money doing a bigger cam and a cheap set of heads and get close, but it's going to be more on the radical side.
    You can spend more money and do a really nice set of heads and a more mild camshaft and have what will seem to be a much tamer combination that is more friendly to drive.
    You really have to decide what you want to put up with and how much money you want to spend. There is no real set answer to your question unfortunately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WICKEDLS1 View Post
    About the free mods you can knock the honeycomb filter out of the maf
    ehhh not really a free mod...nor does it improve horsepower that much...considering you need a tune to actually idle and fuel properly

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