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best heads for the money?

This is a discussion on best heads for the money? within the Internal Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; 445 RWHP actual. ET's aren't corrected. Dyno is SAE corrected....

  1. #41
    Slow'er'Ass Mr. Luos's Avatar
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    445 RWHP actual.

    ET's aren't corrected.
    Dyno is SAE corrected.

  2. #42
    Visualize°Design°Create SSwt00SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INMY01TA View Post
    12.9@113 is not good testament to Patriot.
    thats a result of the driver, not the heads. it was my 1st time out to the 1/4mi with the car...

    next time before blurting out absolute BS, about the heads, take a second to consider other factors, even if the factor happens to be the driver (me)...

  3. #43
    Senior Member INMY01TA's Avatar
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    I considered all the factors and stand by my previous statement.

  4. #44
    Slow'er'Ass Mr. Luos's Avatar
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    I think the PRC's are a great budget head as well.

    Just can't talk down the Patriots with as well as my car has done.

  5. #45
    Member blackls1ta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal View Post
    ^ Agreed. The stock heads have loads of potential, and can be worked over to flow with the best of them. My other '98 Trans Am employed AFR heads, and although I was very pleased with the results, I will never buy aftermarket heads again. The stock heads on my current '98 Trans Am will be entirely worked over....
    ok so how much would a set of stock heads cost to flow as good or better than as aftermarkets?im thinkin just might get stock heads done and a cam to put me around 400-450rwhp

  6. #46
    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackls1ta
    ok so how much would a set of stock heads cost to flow as good or better than as aftermarkets?im thinkin just might get stock heads done and a cam to put me around 400-450rwhp
    Honestly depends on who you have to do the work for you. Again though, you already have the heads, your just paying to have them worked. You need to determine which cam you would like to run ahead of time, then calculate desired compression level(s). Four hundred and fifty-RWHP, if your willing to pay for the proper camshaft, along with the cylinder head work, will be an absolute breeze....

  7. #47
    Genital Salesmen WEZONIT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackls1ta View Post
    ok so how much would a set of stock heads cost to flow as good or better than as aftermarkets?im thinkin just might get stock heads done and a cam to put me around 400-450rwhp

    IMO the stock heads aren't going to flow better than the Ported LS6 heads. These LS6 heads (Stage 1) are flowing over 300 @ .600" with stock valves. That means you don't have to fly cut your pistons and you can still use a big cam. If you upgrade to Stage 2.5 or even 3 you can imagine how much more there going to flow. Go to eportworks.com and check out his prices, Lloyd Elliot is one of the best LT1/LS1 head porters in the business. But your going to be spending the same amount if not more to get those stock heads ported and having to fly cut your pistons if you want them to flow over 300 due to the larger diameter valve and thicker valve margin. Porting the stock heads is a waste of money IMO. I guarantee you can't find a better deal than the LS6 PRC's (Flow vs. Dollars) I have been reasearching for months now, I will be buying the PRC's when I save up enough. Plus you don't have to have a core, which means you can sell your old heads. The only advantage I see is to be able to tell people you have stock unported heads. I would get AFR 225's or PRC's LS6's only IMO. But to each his own

  8. #48
    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WEZONIT
    IMO the stock heads aren't going to flow better than the Ported LS6 heads. These LS6 heads (Stage 1) are flowing over 300 @ .600" with stock valves....
    One thing that I happen to agree with, in respect to some of the engine builders out there, is that airflow at .600" becomes completely irrelevant when you run an intake manifold that lops out at 285cfm (such as the Fast 90). The idea is to cram more air during mid lift ranges, this is where you'll find your power....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal View Post
    One thing that I happen to agree with, in respect to some of the engine builders out there, is that airflow at .600" becomes completely irrelevant when you run an intake manifold that lops out at 285cfm (such as the Fast 90). The idea is to cram more air during mid lift ranges, this is where you'll find your power....
    Not understanding your statement, check out post 16 in the link below. (I didn't want to copy Tony's post directly).

    Link - Post 16

  10. #50
    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettenuts
    Not understanding your statement, check out post 16 in the link below. (I didn't want to copy Tony's post directly).
    The airflow gains above the 285cfm mark would virtually go unnoticed though in conjunction with a LS6 and/or Fast-90 intake manifold. The flow characteristics of the heads mentioned above wouldn't be maximized, as a velocity ported aluminum intake manifold would soon have to be on order. The plastic intake manifold, regardless if it's ported, is a restriction above 285cfm. That said though, if you cram more air during mid lifts; 300", 400" and 500", you won't need heads that flow 300 @ .600" on a 346 cubic inch block, and would probably spank any other 346 in which does. Symmetry is always the key....
    Last edited by Street Lethal; 08-13-2007 at 12:59 PM.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal View Post
    The airflow gains above the 285cfm mark would virtually go unnoticed though in conjunction with a LS6 and/or Fast-90 intake manifold. The flow characteristics of the heads mentioned above wouldn't be maximized, as a velocity ported aluminum intake manifold would soon have to be on order. The plastic intake manifold, regardless if it's ported, is a restriction above 285cfm. That said though, if you cram more air during mid lifts; 300", 400" and 500", you won't need heads that flow 300 @ .600" on a 346 cubic inch block, and would probably spank any other 346 in which does. Symmetry is always the key....
    Either way I guarantee I would make more power with the LS6 Stage 2.5 than with your fully ported 853's or 241's. I just dont understand why you would pay more only to get less. 243's are by far better heads to work with than the stock 241's or 853's. You get higher compression with the 64cc vs 67cc. The LS6 heads flow better all the way through from .100"-.600" . Plus you get brand new heads for the same price if not cheaper. Do as you plz but i know I would never port my stockers. Unless your planning on taking your car to 600+ RWHP and to .700" lift you don't need an alluminum intake, a ported Fast 90 would be fine. There are plenty of people making 500+RWHP with Ported LS6 heads and a ported Fast 90. I can't seem to find anyone making that kind power on stock ported 241's N/A.

    here's a good read
    http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...ylinder_heads/

  12. #52
    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WEZONIT
    Either way I guarantee I would make more power with the LS6 Stage 2.5 than with your fully ported 853's or 241's...
    My stock heads are more than just "ported", and compression levels are exactly where they need to be in conjunction with my camshaft. How can you possibly claim that you'll make more power than me, if you don't even embellish on the entire setup in which your referring to....?

    Incidently, peak numbers mean absolutely nothing on the street.

    Quote Originally Posted by WEZONIT
    Unless your planning on taking your car to 600+ RWHP and to .700" lift you don't need an alluminum intake, a ported Fast 90 would be fine....
    What? Did you even read what I wrote lol? A ported Fast 90 lops out at 285cfm, and the heads that your referring to, in which flow 300cfm, soon become completely irrelevant. This is what I was referring to when I stated "aluminum" intake, as you would need an aluminum intake to SUPPORT 300+cfm, to MAXIMIZE 300+cfm. Otherwise, the additional flow goes unnoticed, and what would be the point then....?!

  13. #53
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    What are the best heads depends on what motor you have and the desired performance. First, if you have a 346 or 364 motor, Ls6 heads will provide enough CFMs. Greater CFMs are unecessary in these motors. Most Ls6 heads flow at around 300 with a 600 lift. If you have a 400 plus motor, then you should consider 320-340 heads.

    In addition, the Ls6 ports are usually around 200ccs, which provides greater velocity and more low end torque, something you want in a streeter. Both Dart and Patriot offer ported and polished Ls6 heads in the 220-30 range, but these are more expensive, about $1000-1200 for a set.

    If you are have a 3.9 in bore 346 motor like I have, then even these reasonably priced heads are probably more than is necessary, and you would do better getting a used set of Ls6 heads and perhaps polishing them before installation. ET and AFRs, while quality products, are for big motors with big CFM needs.

    If you have an Ls2, the answer is simple. Install the L92 heads and I76 intake. They are cheap and all you will ever need for a streeter. The bottom line is, if you want big power, you need forced induction, spray, more cubes, or all of the above. Of course, if you choose FA or spray you need a good bottom end and pistons.

  14. #54
    Genital Salesmen WEZONIT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal View Post
    The stock heads have loads of potential, and can be worked over to flow with the best of them.
    I find that hard to believe. 241's Completely worked over wouldn't come close to an AFR 225 with a minor port.


    Yes you are correct about the ported fast only going to 285 CFM but the LS6 heads flow better all the way through from .100"-.600" over the 241's. I'm not saying you can't make power with ported LS1 heads, I'm just stating you can make more power for the same amount of $ using the LS6's.

    I'm tired of arguing something I already know. LS1 heads are obsolete now that you can get brand new ported 243's for the price it would take to get yours professionally ported. I can then sell my 241's for $150 which will make the LS6 setup even cheaper. Anyway, this is my honest opinion and I'll leave it at that.

  15. #55
    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WEZONIT
    I'm tired of arguing something I already know. LS1 heads are obsolete now that you can get brand new ported 243's for the price it would take to get yours professionally ported. I can then sell my 241's for $150 which will make the LS6 setup even cheaper. Anyway, this is my honest opinion and I'll leave it at that....
    Who's arguing? I'm well aware of the LS1's cylinder head capabilities, as it's being proven over here on a weekly basis. Like I said, it depends on who's doing the machine work when your talking about cost, and we do our own. I already purchased a set of AFR's for my other LS1 Trans Am, and have said repeatedly that I would never do so again. If you feel that the LS6 heads are the way to go, I'm happy for you. You imply that your "tired of arguing something that you already know", heh, and I'll respond to that by saying "I'm really tired of people who, not only neglect to comprehend what is being said, but who also enjoy parroting other people's opinions and experiences". You provide a link to Car Craft as if this somehow justify's your argument, which immediately tells me your a PC racer. Any real racer would CLARIFY their argument, instead of giving me a synopsis of the products' features and benefits....

    [/I'm Done]

  16. #56
    Genital Salesmen WEZONIT's Avatar
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    Lol

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal View Post
    What? Did you even read what I wrote lol? A ported Fast 90 lops out at 285cfm, and the heads that your referring to, in which flow 300cfm, soon become completely irrelevant. This is what I was referring to when I stated "aluminum" intake, as you would need an aluminum intake to SUPPORT 300+cfm, to MAXIMIZE 300+cfm. Otherwise, the additional flow goes unnoticed, and what would be the point then....?!
    Odd. AFR completely disagrees with pretty much everything you just stated. AFR has ported the FAST 90 past 300cfm. And head flow beyond the intake flow STILL produces more power, all other variables being the same.

    If you honestly think that any flow above this imaginary 300cfm wall you're putting up, you're WAY out of touch. There are several cylinder heads on the market that are flowing 25-30cfm over your wall, and making additional power in the process.

    The new engine I put in my car exploits the high lift, above 300cfm head flow that as you put, wouldn't be noticable. Despite that and the LS6 intake, it made 35rwhp MORE than my old engine, that met your low cfm requirement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc 85Z28 View Post
    Odd. AFR completely disagrees with pretty much everything you just stated. AFR has ported the FAST 90 past 300cfm. And head flow beyond the intake flow STILL produces more power, all other variables being the same.

    If you honestly think that any flow above this imaginary 300cfm wall you're putting up, you're WAY out of touch. There are several cylinder heads on the market that are flowing 25-30cfm over your wall, and making additional power in the process.
    Thank You!

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Luos View Post
    What about 11.97 at 117.59 while racing at 5800 feet???
    DA = 7100

    Or 531.1 RWHP all motor?


    Not the top of the line, but the Patriots are great budget heads. And their customer service is TOP NOTCH! Gunnar did more than he needed to for me.
    And the car runs hard.


    With that much wheel hp you should be running in the mid to low 10's. Your 1/4 times are not impressive but your HP. #'s are very impressive. no punt intended!!

  20. #60
    Member blackls1ta's Avatar
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    i think my choice is gonna be stage 2.5 5.3l heads with ms3 cam from texas speed

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