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why subframes...why not?

This is a discussion on why subframes...why not? within the Suspension and Handling forums, part of the General Help category; Two weeks ago . . .I started my chassis & suspension upgrades in the WS6 T/A. I installed the SLP ...

  1. #21
    Space Cadet RainMan's Avatar
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    Talking Another $.02 worth on SFC's & STB

    Two weeks ago . . .I started my chassis & suspension upgrades in the WS6 T/A. I installed the SLP SFC's, and the SLP tunnel brace with Drive-shaft loop. Also installed Hotchkis STB, LCA's, Panhard bar, new poly torque arm bushing, and a T/A billet rear end cover with preload adjustment. Still have more to go. Plan on finishing with shocks, full poly upgrades (every piece of OEM rubber must go), possibly new front upper and lower control arms. Will eventually get larger front & rear sway bars, safety bar poly motor & tranny mounts, and stiffer torque arm.

    No big power Mod's yet. Firm believer in "All that power is useless if you can't get it to the ground".

    So far, it's like a totally new ride! no more creaking and popping from T-Tops, and rear hatch. Much more positive feel and control in turns, No wheel hop, or body twisting and flexing in hard launches. Much less wheel spin, rear end plants and car takes off! No more body flex or twisting pulling out of and entering steep driveways, going over speed bumps, etc, and the car is easier to handle and control. Also noticed it doesn't track in roads with deep ruts like it used to anymore*.
    But the chassis, and rear upgrades do bring out the weakness in the stock suspension that still remains. Still has soft feel and some body roll in hard cornering.

    I personally like the stability of the DD (3 point SFC's) My SLP SFC's were purchased used for little over $100. I stripped and refinished them and am happy with the result. Undercoated all attach and contact points after install.

    On the flip side, my IROC has full suspension re-work, struts, shocks, LCA's, PH bar, "Full PolyGraphite Everything" but, it doesn't have SFC's, STB, or aftermarket torque arm. It still twists and tracks slightly but, has a very firm and positive feel for the road. It corners really well, and has minimal body roll. It is a hard top car, no T-Tops. One thing I did notice with the IROC since the suspension is much tighter and I don't have the chassis stiffened, is there was more pronounced body twist and flex entering and exiting driveways, going over speed bumps at an angle, etc. . .

    No, I do not plan on lowering either car. Never been a big fan of lowering. Feel the risk of potential damage due to contact with whatever is not worth the marginal gain in handling. Not to mention the additional cost of adjustable/specialty components to tune/compensate for altered suspension geometry.

    My $.02

    *(Here's another "Anymore" for BillyT)

  2. #22
    ruff ruff rotwiler's Avatar
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    LT's, 3400 stall, FIPK,CB
    2002 Z28

    I have the Double diamond style SFC's too, they are big, boxed, 3 point and just like the SLP's, but bought them from a guy who used to make them on this board and honestly besides the TQ converter, is the best mod I have ever done to this car and 2 full seasons of weekly drag races I still have no creeks or squeeks and is great with over 200+ times down the 1/4 mile. Now I have long tube headers so the underside looks different, but they fit even with the SFC's..I even took the car back to a GM dealer when it had 2k miles because it was scarey on the highway when it hit grooves and was told it was due to the 245 width tires, a week later added the SFC's and can drive with 1 finger on the wheel now...Here's a pic...
    Last edited by rotwiler; 03-02-2006 at 04:37 PM.

  3. #23
    Space Cadet RainMan's Avatar
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    2002 WS6, '08 G8 GT

    Quote Originally Posted by onyx_rock
    The only reason I am debating on putting them on my car is to prevent the dimples in the rear fender. I saw one on my car and cant explain how else it got there other than body flex. This is supposed to be cured by SFC's but I would like to know if it is for sure. Otherwise I feel the same that the added weight is not justified.
    Anyone familiar with the dimples?
    Are your Dimples on the rear quarters, above the wheel well and below the rear A pillar?

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by RainMan
    Are your Dimples on the rear quarters, above the wheel well and below the rear A pillar?
    Yes. I only have the one. It is a bit back from the a-pillar but it is above the rear wheel well.

    Edit - Oh and I believe it would be the rear pillar not the a-pillar.
    Last edited by onyx_rock; 03-03-2006 at 01:20 PM.

  5. #25
    Detailing + Design third_shift|studios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onyx_rock
    Yes. I only have the one. It is a bit back from the a-pillar but it is above the rear wheel well.
    +1, passenger side for me.

  6. #26
    Space Cadet RainMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipherentdesign
    +1, passenger side for me.
    Welcome to the Club! You, onyx_rock, and I + many others I'm sure, are the proud owners of the prestigious mark of the "Flex". My small "dimple" is also on the passenger side above the wheel well. Apparently this is the weak flex point on the 4th gens. Especially with the "T" Tops.

    On my 3rd gen, (A solid roof coupe) the damage is on the rear pillar, at the top rear edge of the side window molding. The sheet-metal actually tears there. If not promptly corrected the tear will lead to stress corrosion. I have seen many 3rd Gen's in the Bone Yard with this exact type of damage. Torn sheet-metal and rust holes along the top rear of the side windows and across the body to roof seam. This happened on both the driver, and pass sides of my IROC. It is currently in the garage (where the T/A should be) undergoing cancer surgery for the second time in 6 years. Oh well. . .

  7. #27
    Detailing + Design third_shift|studios's Avatar
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    can dimples be pulled out or are they perminant?

  8. #28
    Detailing + Design third_shift|studios's Avatar
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    how much do SFC's weigh? they have to be a lot! they're huge pieces of steel...I really can't decide if it's worth putting them on a stock car if they'll just weigh me down and i can't do any power adders for a few years.

  9. #29
    Member Z27's Avatar
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    Might want to check on how far different ones hang down if you're still planning on lowering your ride. BMR tubular SFC supposedly 3/4 inch higher than boxed and are lighter. I went with boxed and stock ride height, and no ground clearance issues. Other brands will all vary some in height.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z27
    Might want to check on how far different ones hang down if you're still planning on lowering your ride. BMR tubular SFC supposedly 3/4 inch higher than boxed and are lighter. I went with boxed and stock ride height, and no ground clearance issues. Other brands will all vary some in height.
    I have on order a set BMR tubular SFC I dont plan on racing but do run the car hard some times on the street. Are the tube BMR ok for a 99ss t-top.

  11. #31
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    Last edited by skar; 03-06-2006 at 10:45 AM.

  12. #32
    Senior Member ss~zoso~ss's Avatar
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    SS: NBM, tan top
    1998-SS, 2010 Jetta TDI

    probably less than 40 lbs, but alot lighter than dimples, i think after reading this thread i know why i have 8-9 dimples above my rear wheels on each side OUCH!! they are removable, but companies will want mucho dinero
    98' SS Convertible Camaro-76k-Build # 1471, Cragar SS rims, RK SFC's, MAC Panhard, LSX Tune, Shaner S3,
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    http://www.cardomain.com/ride/787506/1

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipherentdesign


    how much do SFC's weigh? they have to be a lot! they're huge pieces of steel...I really can't decide if it's worth putting them on a stock car if they'll just weigh me down and i can't do any power adders for a few years.
    I think my Edelbrock Weld-on SFCs weigh about 5 lbs each, if that? They are tubular steel, strong, and are not heavy at all.

  14. #34
    Member Z27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skar
    I have on order a set BMR tubular SFC I dont plan on racing but do run the car hard some times on the street. Are the tube BMR ok for a 99ss t-top.
    Tubular SFC should be ok. Nephew of mine runs 12.2's and auto-x with his Bird and has no problems I'm aware of. His is also a T-top.

  15. #35
    Space Cadet RainMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z27
    Might want to check on how far different ones hang down if you're still planning on lowering your ride. BMR tubular SFC supposedly 3/4 inch higher than boxed and are lighter. I went with boxed and stock ride height, and no ground clearance issues. Other brands will all vary some in height.
    Posted pics in below thread of how far my SLP's hang down. Also included links to UMI for their DD SFC's.

    subframe connector

    Oh, mine is stock ride height

  16. #36
    Junior Member jeffsredt/a's Avatar
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    Has anyone ever thought of making their own sfc's. I have a bunch of scrap steel in my shop i have 3/8 thick or 1/2 steel plate (laser cutting shop). Would that be more effective than a tube design if your are considering lowering the ride height?

  17. #37
    Senior Member INMY01TA's Avatar
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    I didn't notice jack from my stb. I noticed a big difference soon as I drove down the street when my sfc's were installed. I had a dimple removed from my rear quarter panel like 3 years ago. Cost $125 from a paintless dent repair guy. Can't tell it was ever there!

  18. #38
    Lord God King Bufu Raven98Z28's Avatar
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    I have both and added them at different times.

    With the SFCs, the car is more rigid while driving and hitting bumps... it forces the shocks to absorb the shock instead of the chassis. And you notice it. Before SFCs, the car would kinda do "the wave" whenever I hit a bump... After SFCs, I don't watch my car flex before my eyes.

    When I added the STB, I didn't notice much of anything until I had to do an emergency lane change one day. Then, I scared myself I change lanes so quickly. My car was already lowered, so it responded more quickly than stock, but when I added the STB, I changed lanes in the blink of an eye and avoided the certain accident in front of me. If I didn't add the STB and lowering, I'd probably be in a casket right now.

    I honestly don't know how I ever drove w/out them... you don't know what you're missing til you try it.

  19. #39
    Member snake_skinner00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rotwiler
    My car twisted and followed grooves really bad...Added in SFC's and went away..Added a STB and helped a little more. On T-top and Converts they are a must. The difference with and without is incredible and there is no way I would ever run the car without them now.
    took the words right out of my mouth ... my view EXACTLY

  20. #40
    Evr sena bdgr killa snak? Roastem's Avatar
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    My car leaks into the cabin when it rains. My driveway is not flat, and when I park it a certain way I don't get wet carpet. Come to find out, the rear has cracked body panel welds under the hatch, where body flex has contorted the ass end. No doubt from quite a few hard track launches with no subframes. The car had subframes when I bought it, no doubt the previous owner deemed it necessary. Initially I thought it was cool that I didn't have to pay for subframes and a subframe mounted adj. torque arms, but now I see why the guy put them on there. To keep his drivetrain from destroying his car.

    Don't you just love how LSX's tear sh*t up?
    Last edited by Roastem; 03-23-2006 at 12:41 PM.
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