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why subframes...why not?

This is a discussion on why subframes...why not? within the Suspension and Handling forums, part of the General Help category; I won't go into too much detail but after a short discussion with sam strano on Tech, i've become a ...

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    Detailing + Design third_shift|studios's Avatar
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    why subframes...why not?

    I won't go into too much detail but after a short discussion with sam strano on Tech, i've become a disbeliever that sfc's are ABSOLUTELY required on these cars [street applications, not strip]

    To me i feel like it's just adding extra weight that you could other wise save on. I really don't plan on putting SFC's nor an STB b/c from what i hear there is not any noticable improvemnet in handling. I mean, i hate to swing on this guy's nuts but he does have national auto-x trophies, he doesn't use stb's or sfc's and swears that the shock system on these cars is the real suspension problem, not the chassy.

    Without starting a war, i'm intrested to know how you feel about this. I've long convinced myself not to buy them and probably won't. Has anyone done shocks and not sfc's and felt a huge improvement?

    b4 someone asks: no, i have never modded my suspension, i haver never taken a drive in a car with modded suspension. I am simply going from speculation and testimonials.
    Last edited by third_shift|studios; 02-28-2006 at 10:48 AM.

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    your parts guy!!! 1fastcamarosss11's Avatar
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    Detailing + Design third_shift|studios's Avatar
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    The only reason I am debating on putting them on my car is to prevent the dimples in the rear fender. I saw one on my car and cant explain how else it got there other than body flex. This is supposed to be cured by SFCs but I would like to know if it is for sure. Otherwise I feel the same that the added weight is not justified.
    Anyone familiar with the dimples?
    02 TA A4
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    your parts guy!!! 1fastcamarosss11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipherentdesign
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    your parts guy!!! 1fastcamarosss11's Avatar
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    Junior Member stevo5662's Avatar
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    well of course u NEED subframe connectores your in a convertable fer christ sake! u got no top support whatsoever. Me im stayin away from them for a while. i have a coupe so i have alot less flex than most of you already.

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    Detailing + Design third_shift|studios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onyx_rock
    The only reason I am debating on putting them on my car is to prevent the dimples in the rear fender. I saw one on my car and cant explain how else it got there other than body flex. This is supposed to be cured by SFCs but I would like to know if it is for sure. Otherwise I feel the same that the added weight is not justified.
    Anyone familiar with the dimples?
    hmmmm...that explains what i found on my rear quarter the otherday....maybe i should get them

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    Drive it like ya stole it sills1's Avatar
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    Yea, I have a dimple too, even when I'm not smiling. I have no idea where it could have come from other than body flex. There was no tell tale sign of a car door ding, not to mention the location tells me it wasn't a door ding. If I do any mods to the engine, I will be sure to have SFC's installed for sure. Thank goodness it is hard to notice. You gotta love Pewter, very hard to see blemishes.
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  10. #10
    badfnz28
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    I had my bmr sfcs welded in when I was home a few weeks ago...made a huge difference on my car that was pretty solid before the install.

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    Heavy Set Thin Guy t/as&dds's Avatar
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    I've got SFCs that I haven't put in yet. Waiting for the warm weather. I can however chime in about the STB. My personal review is that it DID tighten up the handling and reduced the 'tracking' problem I had. Maybe the shocks are shitty in these cars but for a $90 STB vs. a couple hund for shocks, the STB was a better investment.

    Scenario, I have to make a right hand turn to get up my street. At the bottom of my street I have to get into the right lane to make that turn. Before my STB, the car walked all over the place whenever I got into that lane. Since my STB, the car is much more solid and doesn't track at all. Switching lanes is easier on the highway, etc. I have a 32MM sway bar going in this spring as well. For $50, it's a great investment along w/ some poly endlinks and bushings.

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    Detailing + Design third_shift|studios's Avatar
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    where the f did you finda 32 mm sway bar for 50!?!??!

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    Junior Member hotpart.com's Avatar
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    I have not looked at the SCCA Solo II rule book in a while but my guess the reason Sam does not run subframe connectors is they are not legal in Stock or ESP classes. Subframe connectors are very important to any uni-body vehicle. I will say this Sam is correct in saying that the factory shocks are a week link in the F-Body suspension. But I completely disagree with him in regards to subframe connectors and other chassis stiffening parts. In order to achieve the best performance out of any suspension part (anti-roll bars, springs, shocks, etc.) you must have a rigid chassis. If your suspension locating points are moving under load you will not be able to control your geometry properly and keep a good tire contact patch on the ground. First thing we always do when building a race car is start with a cage. The primary purpose is to keep the driver safe, but the secondary purpose is chassis stiffness. We need to keep the suspension being suspension and the frame being a frame. If your frame turns into suspension it is something that shocks, springs and anti-roll bars cannot control. Hope this helps put some light on this subject and as always if you have any suspensions questions our technical department is always willing to help. Good luck on your current and future projects.

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    Heavy Set Thin Guy t/as&dds's Avatar
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    Here's the link. It's a 1LE bar from gyrhead.com and it's only $30. The add'l is for the endlinks and frame bushings.

    http://www.gyrhead.com/Catalog/Searc...26&VendorID=49

    Don't get the Moog bushings from him though, I got polys from Summit.

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    dds: thanks for the info. looks like all OE kinda stuff, and i'd rather upgrade.

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    Member Transam388's Avatar
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    I have to agree with Hotpart.com on this as well. The SFC are a very integral part of stiffening the body on these cars and does make a noticeable difference. I actually noticed more of a difference in daily driving than at the track. When you have to go sideways over those high and very pitched driveways so you don't scrape the nose of the car, you notice that it no longer is twisting like it did before without the SFC. As far as the STB that I am mixed on. It does add to the handling and that is cool but that I did not notice as much of a difference as I did with SFC. STB Not a bad thing to do but doubt you will see much difference unless you really turn hard. Anyway, good luck with this!
    98 T/A: HPE 5.3 Heads, 238/242 113 cam, Kooks 1 7/8 stepped LT headers, Custom Y pipe, Cut out, Borla, NW 90MM TB, FAST 90MM Intake, TB Bypass, Under Drive Power steering and Crank, 150 Dry NOS, Yella Terra rockers, 3400 TC, HPE tuning,

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    Senior Member Zboner's Avatar
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    I used the Edelbrock weld-in SFCs. They are not heavy at all, but they work!
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    ruff ruff rotwiler's Avatar
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    My car twisted and followed grooves really bad...Added in SFC's and went away..Added a STB and helped a little more. On T-top and Converts they are a must. The difference with and without is incredible and there is no way I would ever run the car without them now.

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    Detailing + Design third_shift|studios's Avatar
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    intresting...i'm really starting to see the light here....i've become prompted to make a new THREAD!

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