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which shocks?

This is a discussion on which shocks? within the Suspension and Handling forums, part of the General Help category; Originally Posted by Sam Strano Front springs are 550, rear are 150... 550 rear--whew, that'd be way, way, WAY not ...

  1. #41
    Member fergyflyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Strano View Post
    Front springs are 550, rear are 150... 550 rear--whew, that'd be way, way, WAY not good.

    KYB Gas-A-Justs? Junk, garbage, crap. AGX's are better by far. I wouldn't use Gas-a-justs on my worst enemies car. Well, maybe. The fact they seem great to many stems mostly from the fact the stock stuff isn't very good, and only gets worse with miles added. That means even something half-assed seems rocking in comparison because it's better than what was there before.
    KYB Gas-A-Justs are a monotube shock, much better than Monroe's or Gabriels ETC.... for very little more money.


    Koni's, kinda like a Porsche. Overpriced unless you want an extreme performance.

    I'm not racing my car other than an occasional trip to the 1/4 mile strip. The Gas-A-Justs give the car a great ride and tighten the handling up a bit while they are at it. Stops the nose dive the car has while braking with the stock shocks.

    Be fair Sam. Koni's have a place if you intend to race but for normal everyday driving they aren't the best bang for your buck.

    Plus Sam, your a Koni dealer, might be just a bit of bias too huh??????

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    Member fergyflyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allbaugh_04 View Post
    Sam, are your front and rear spring rates 550lbs?

    Sam, what do you think of these gas shocks mentioned in the quote above?

    Poster, what can you compare these gas kybs to besides stock?
    Bilstein and KYB co-patented the monotube shock. They are the same design shock with each company putting their own flavor to their brand with specific valving. That's a direct comparison of what the Gas-A-Just is most like. So I guess that means he's calling the Bilsteins junk too.

    They are much better than Gabriels and Monroes. On par with Tokico, Bilstein and Sachs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fergyflyer View Post
    KYB Gas-A-Justs are a monotube shock, much better than Monroe's or Gabriels ETC.... for very little more money.


    Koni's, kinda like a Porsche. Overpriced unless you want an extreme performance.

    I'm not racing my car other than an occasional trip to the 1/4 mile strip. The Gas-A-Justs give the car a great ride and tighten the handling up a bit while they are at it. Stops the nose dive the car has while braking with the stock shocks.

    Be fair Sam. Koni's have a place if you intend to race but for normal everyday driving they aren't the best bang for your buck.

    Plus Sam, your a Koni dealer, might be just a bit of bias too huh??????
    Sam also sells KYB and Bilstein, and even has a custom valved Bilstein HD line, he by far does not just sell Koni. If you take the time to talk to him, he won't even mention Koni if you don't have the budget for it....he's not just some snake dealer trying to get the next buck. With all the championships he's won, and backorders he has on his own line of springs, I would bet he probably doesn't need the money from those Koni shocks, that he probably doesn't make much overhead on anyway...

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    LSX whore allbaugh_04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fergyflyer View Post
    Bilstein and KYB co-patented the monotube shock. They are the same design shock with each company putting their own flavor to their brand with specific valving. That's a direct comparison of what the Gas-A-Just is most like. So I guess that means he's calling the Bilsteins junk too.

    They are much better than Gabriels and Monroes. On par with Tokico, Bilstein and Sachs.

    Don't put down Sam so hard. He's helped me out with a lot of questions and always looks out for his customers on what they want out of their ride...that's an A+ in my book. We need more sponsors like Sam around here.

    When people say they want the best, he says koni for a reason...

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    i'd add that Koni's are worth their $... although if I had to do it all over again, i wouldn't get the DA allround.
    I've gone through several setups and learned the hard way, even going against Sam's advice... and guess what ... he was right everytime... guess I had to learn it myself.
    having said that... remember that with Koni SA, you can lower the car ~3/4" without having to change springs... having said that. it's a great bang for buck for a 3/4" lowering with a great shock... hard to find a better deal, imho.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fergyflyer View Post
    Bilstein and KYB co-patented the monotube shock. They are the same design shock with each company putting their own flavor to their brand with specific valving. That's a direct comparison of what the Gas-A-Just is most like. So I guess that means he's calling the Bilsteins junk too.

    They are much better than Gabriels and Monroes. On par with Tokico, Bilstein and Sachs.
    I'm sorry, but need said.

    You are not only wrong, but ignorant and that's a bad combination. You know just enough to be dangerous.

    You want to know who really patented mono-tube shocks? Are you sure? deCarbon. We know how good those are (though admittedly the valving was the problem more than any design issues--thank GM).

    You seem to want to convince yourself I'm a moron. Good luck. And as was pointed out I sell KYB, and Tokico, and Monroe, and Bilstein, and Koni, and Edelbrock. Hell I could even go QA1's. What's more is I also sell super premium shocks from Ohlins and AST, and Koni racing shocks too.

    The mere fact you compared KYB to Bilstein and Sachs is laughable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Strano View Post
    I'm sorry, but need said.

    You are not only wrong, but ignorant and that's a bad combination. You know just enough to be dangerous.

    You want to know who really patented mono-tube shocks? Are you sure? deCarbon. We know how good those are (though admittedly the valving was the problem more than any design issues--thank GM).

    You seem to want to convince yourself I'm a moron. Good luck. And as was pointed out I sell KYB, and Tokico, and Monroe, and Bilstein, and Koni, and Edelbrock. Hell I could even go QA1's. What's more is I also sell super premium shocks from Ohlins and AST, and Koni racing shocks too.

    The mere fact you compared KYB to Bilstein and Sachs is laughable.
    Let's try this again. If you are going to be modifying your suspension there are better shocks than a Gas-A-Just depending on what your ultimate goal is. Putting Koni's on my car with stock springs, bushings and such is a complete waste. You're ignorant if you won't concede that.

    Now hopefully we can quit the name calling.

    DeCarbon patented a monotube shock but not the self contained monotube shock. The oil and nitrogen were in external canisters. Look under a Citroen 2CV to see what the original DeCarbon monotube shocks looked like.

    Bilstein and KYB patented the self contained monotube shock. So I guess you are right but I am also in that we were talking about self contained monotube shocks. I think even the French have advanced to the point that they don't use the old external canister monotube shocks anymore.

    Never said you were a moron. Definately don't want to give anyone the impression that you are a anythng less than a well respected tuner. You're the one that started with calling me ignorant and KYB Gas-A-Just shocks garbage. Both very extreme statements.

    On a race track the KYB's come up short. For everyday driving on a car with stock suspension components, a car that ride quality is valued as much as handling the Koni's could be called trash.

    Use the right tool for the job. The KYB's are a nice step up from stock if you aren't looking to autoX your car or run a road course. Kinda like some brake pads are garbage for the street but great on the track and vice versus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by allbaugh_04 View Post
    Don't put down Sam so hard. He's helped me out with a lot of questions and always looks out for his customers on what they want out of their ride...that's an A+ in my book. We need more sponsors like Sam around here.

    When people say they want the best, he says koni for a reason...
    I'm not putting Sam down. He's calling KYB's junk but they are the same shock as the Bilsteins. Just different bias. As with everything there is a preference factor here plus a use factor.

    Again Koni might be best for one application and not right for another. It depends on the goal you are trying to accomplish. I would much rather have a softer ride that's still controled with less nose dive than stock, than the stiff ride the Koni's provide. If you head to the road course you'd think the exact opposite.

    Remeber, he's the one calling me ignorant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fergyflyer View Post
    I'm not putting Sam down. He's calling KYB's junk but they are the same shock as the Bilsteins. Just different bias. As with everything there is a preference factor here plus a use factor.

    Again Koni might be best for one application and not right for another. It depends on the goal you are trying to accomplish. I would much rather have a softer ride that's still controled with less nose dive than stock, than the stiff ride the Koni's provide. If you head to the road course you'd think the exact opposite.

    Remeber, he's the one calling me ignorant.
    I guess if your 'goal' is having crappy suspension, you'd be all set with just about anything you want...

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    Quote Originally Posted by thearborbarber View Post
    Replace the factory units with 90000 miles. I do mostly spirited driving with an occasional autocross and trip to the 1/4 mile.
    Stock springs? If so then Bilstein would be my call unless you have to have adjustables in which case AGX's, but they aren't nearly the same level of durable.

    The other thing I'll mention is there are a number of various Bilstein sets around. SLP, older HD's, new HD's, and then the set I do to counter what I think was a mistake in a valving change a few years ago (they made the rear valving more like deCarbons.. Yeck).

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    Quote Originally Posted by fergyflyer View Post
    Let's try this again. If you are going to be modifying your suspension there are better shocks than a Gas-A-Just depending on what your ultimate goal is. Putting Koni's on my car with stock springs, bushings and such is a complete waste. You're ignorant if you won't concede that.

    Now hopefully we can quit the name calling.

    DeCarbon patented a monotube shock but not the self contained monotube shock. The oil and nitrogen were in external canisters. Look under a Citroen 2CV to see what the original DeCarbon monotube shocks looked like.

    Bilstein and KYB patented the self contained monotube shock. So I guess you are right but I am also in that we were talking about self contained monotube shocks. I think even the French have advanced to the point that they don't use the old external canister monotube shocks anymore.

    Never said you were a moron. Definately don't want to give anyone the impression that you are a anythng less than a well respected tuner. You're the one that started with calling me ignorant and KYB Gas-A-Just shocks garbage. Both very extreme statements.

    On a race track the KYB's come up short. For everyday driving on a car with stock suspension components, a car that ride quality is valued as much as handling the Koni's could be called trash.

    Use the right tool for the job. The KYB's are a nice step up from stock if you aren't looking to autoX your car or run a road course. Kinda like some brake pads are garbage for the street but great on the track and vice versus.
    You know, I can only argue with a brick wall so long.

    Yes, I'll concede if the the rest of the car is F-ed up in other ways than Koni's a waste. And this is a HUGE reason I want to *TALK* to folks by phone so I can assess if this is the case.

    You keep harping on the mono-tube thing? Fine, let's examine it a bit more. Did Bilstein's patent it, or did KYB? They are not the same company, and are not at all related and both couldn't have come up with it and gotten patents. Further, do you think that the original invention can't be improved upon by someone else? I think you are super hung up on the mono-tube thing. It's not a panacea, there are plenty of lousy mono-tube design shocks around.

    I've had Gas-A-Justs myself. And in every case I tried them, they sucked. On an S10, on a Crown Vic, on a Volvo and a number of other cars. In fact in two of the cases we replaced them with "lesser" twin-tube GR2 (just normal drive to work customers) and on the Crown Vic who's owner was more demanding (and bought the Gas-A-Justs against my advice) went Bilstein. In every case the improvement was noticeable and the customers happy.

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    formally 01 T/A 0verkill's Avatar
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    its good to see you back on the site sam y the time off?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 01 T/A View Post
    its good to see you back on the site sam y the time off?
    I was always here. I haven't been posting much because frankly I've been swamped at work and didn't have much time to dedicate to this site.

    This site has lost the tech stuff I like. I no longer advertise here, not because I don't like other F-body guys (I am one, still have my Camaro), or Brad... Just business and the return frankly isn't here for me to spend much time.

    I had a few minutes free, and so dropped in to see a lot of dubious information which frustrated me personally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Y2KArcticSS View Post
    I guess if your 'goal' is having crappy suspension, you'd be all set with just about anything you want...
    Your definition of crappy is a softer ride. My definition is too firm.

    I want to be able to drive my car everyday and then once or twice a year take a cross country trip and be able to drive 800-1000 miles in a day and not feel beat up.

    To me the stock set-up on a GTO is perfect. All day comfort and much better than 80 percent of the cars on the road in terms of cornering grip.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam Strano View Post
    You know, I can only argue with a brick wall so long.

    Yes, I'll concede if the the rest of the car is F-ed up in other ways than Koni's a waste. And this is a HUGE reason I want to *TALK* to folks by phone so I can assess if this is the case.

    You keep harping on the mono-tube thing? Fine, let's examine it a bit more. Did Bilstein's patent it, or did KYB? They are not the same company, and are not at all related and both couldn't have come up with it and gotten patents. Further, do you think that the original invention can't be improved upon by someone else? I think you are super hung up on the mono-tube thing. It's not a panacea, there are plenty of lousy mono-tube design shocks around.

    I've had Gas-A-Justs myself. And in every case I tried them, they sucked. On an S10, on a Crown Vic, on a Volvo and a number of other cars. In fact in two of the cases we replaced them with "lesser" twin-tube GR2 (just normal drive to work customers) and on the Crown Vic who's owner was more demanding (and bought the Gas-A-Justs against my advice) went Bilstein. In every case the improvement was noticeable and the customers happy.
    I can agree with everything you have said here for the most part sans the brick wall.

    My 03 Cavalier that does most of the DD duties has GR2's. I hate them. Way too stiff. Your opinion would probably be that they are a huge improvement. I have 15,000 miles on the car and they are now starting to become bearable.

    The Gas-A-Justs provide a softer ride and they control dive when braking and squat when accelerating much better than the stock shocks. I didn't want a firm set-up.

    Your exactly right when you say you need to talk to the customer and set things up for their preference. You're dealing with a customers in your business that are mainly looking to improve cornering grip and aren't worried about a soft ride.

    Oh, Bilstein and KYB copatented the technology. Each company then builds the same shock with different valving specific to each company. The valving is tuned towards the target customer. KYB is targeted torward a more compliant ride, just not as compliant as DeCarbon.

    Again Sam, I have nothing but respect for you. I'm sorry if I came across as not having respect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Y2KArcticSS View Post
    Which is why I'm worshipping my Bilstein HD's right now I'm sure that Koni's are much better, but these sure beat the hell out of the deCarbons I took off the front, Monroe Sensa-Tracs off the back......
    Sensatrack are even worse than the stock decarbon's... no kidding anything will beat that... doens't mean that it's still good.
    Bilstein HD are meant for stock spring rates.. if you have higher spring rate, they can't handle the job... even if better than the stock ones.
    Why spend $ on something that doesn't do the job properly... not saying that you need to purchase the best, but at least get something that works well.

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    ok guys... consider this a warning... keep it civil and no name calling.
    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenio_SS View Post
    Sensatrack are even worse than the stock decarbon's... no kidding anything will beat that... doens't mean that it's still good.
    Bilstein HD are meant for stock spring rates.. if you have higher spring rate, they can't handle the job... even if better than the stock ones.
    Why spend $ on something that doesn't do the job properly... not saying that you need to purchase the best, but at least get something that works well.
    I do still have stock springs, and my ULTIMATE goal is to eventually get a set of Koni's and Strano springs, but these are fine until I switch it up. I just needed something I wouldn't have to replace in 15000 miles or less (anything from Autozone/O'Reilly's), so I went with the Bilsteins.

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