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Ugh...5th. Pricey?

This is a discussion on Ugh...5th. Pricey? within the Manual Transmission forums, part of the Drivetrain category; Hey guys. So two days ago life was grand and my car had zero things wrong with it. Then i ...

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    Member Ant71130's Avatar
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    Ugh...5th. Pricey?

    Hey guys. So two days ago life was grand and my car had zero things wrong with it. Then i hear a slight noise when i shifted from 4-5 yesterday and got worried. Had a tranny shop guy ride with me and he said just to change fluid and see if there were any shavings or anything. Said it sounded completely fine. The next day (today) i can no longer downshift from 6-5 and when i upshift from 4-5 it goes in but pops out once the clutch is released. Im thinking bad synchro. Im generally very careful about this car in general. I neutral to slow down, rev match to downshift, i dont bang gears often but when i do its never 5 or 6. The car has been attempted to shift into 5th at the top of 4th quickly once. And when that happened (about a year ago) it didnt go in. Felt like the fork got bent or something and ever since then 6-5 downshift has been a little harder than usual but definitely useable. I got the car with 45k. It now has 67k. 02 ws6. 4.10s/bolt ons.

    So my question is...i have no money. Not a good time in my life but.. Though a nice stage 2 rebuild would be amazing, i just cant swing it. Whats the cheapest route for
    Me to go? Is 5-6-r easier to work on? Is it all in the tailshaft? Will labor be reduced to only change 5th synchro? Or should i change all blocker rings? Ive never been inside a tranny and need to have a professional do it. Need help/advice guys :/.

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    Member Ant71130's Avatar
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    Also as a quick question, until i get the funds or time to fix this; can i just not use 5th gear and be okay for the time being? Will that hurt anything?

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    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    My guess is synchros also, but typically a synchro for 5th gear doesn't ever go bad because you're never really power shifting into an over-drive gear. Seems a bit odd to me.

    You can certainly drive the car without using 5th and it not harm anything though.

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    Member Ant71130's Avatar
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    Right? You'd think that but apparently not. I don't know man. It's got me in a funk, I'm not really super rich right now. Straight out of college and working a "Bridge job" as I call it waiting for something big but... atm I'm poor. Only 22 years old and tranny problems at 67k miles weren't my expectation. Drove home today and really tried to do some exploring. I'm going to change the fluid with synchromesh and not use 5th from here on out until i can fix it. Problem is with 4.10s, 5th was like my most used gear. I used it anywhere from 35-50mph which is basically everywhere but the highway.

    here's the scoop, All gears work fine. If I shift from 4th to 5th, so long as I'm gentle it goes in and 5th works just fine, doesn'tt keep me stuck in gear or anything. If I attempt to downshift from 6th to 5th, it's not possible. it just won't go in, no matter how gentle or rough I am. Also, if I attempt 5th, have it fail, then put it in neutral, wait a second, and then try 5th again, I still can't. I have to go right from 4th. And it slides perfectly, it just pops out occasionally. I haven't tried a 3-5 skip/upshift to my knowledge since, though I usually do that. It'd probably just pop out and be similar to 4-5. but from neutral or 6th, I can't use it. So.... any insight or cheap way to fix it? obviously it's not going to be too cheap but what should I tell the tranny people? Can you fix this issue without tearing the entire tranny apart or am I kinda screwed?

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    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    Here is a link to the T56 manual - http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2...-0610-0199.pdf

    Section 3-11 shoes a picture of where the 5th/6th synchro is.

    Popping out of gear is usually the result of that.

    I had my T56 fully rebuilt at 12K miles (so don't feel bad) because mine got stuck in 4th. I broke the synchronizer key. The factory keys are stamped and hollow so they are weak.

    The parts are cheap and there are rebuild kits you can buy for not much money...however, labor is where you are going to have to drop some cash.

    If you are mechanically inclined and can have the car down for some time, you could attempt it yourself. I know manual transmissions have a lot more parts than auto's so they are typically a little more difficult/time consuming to work on.

    I'm sure a few here have done so though and can guide you through it. I've personally never seen the inside of one other than through pictures.

    The other symptoms you describe could be indicative of something else going on also on top of a bad synchro...

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    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    PM coming your way.

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    Member Ant71130's Avatar
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    Great :/. Well sometimes first gear seems to get locked out when I come to a stop, and is quickly fixed by shifting to a different gear and then back to first. Reverse also, very seldomly when i go to put it in reverse it'll stay in there but as I go to actually move it grinds slightly and I have to take it out and then back in. It's never difficult to do so though. I figured since it's both fo the "stop-moving" gears that it was my clutch not fully disengaging because sometimes my first gear issue is also solve by just hitting the clutch pedal a couple times. I'm doing the drill mod soon so maybe that'll help? not sure. I really hope all is not too bad :/ I'll check out thegearbox.org I suppose. would i be dumb not to get the stage 2? I can't really afford it. Any upgrade that is highly highly highly recommended? at least the blocker rings?

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    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    You can definitely try to change your hydraulic fluid first. It may be dirty or low. Check the fluid level and see what it looks like. The drill mod is more or less used to help with clutch dis-engagement at high RPM. I don't think it's going to help your issue, but it certainly won't hurt to have it done anyway.

    In my opinion, if it is grinding at all, then that's certainly a bad synchronizer key. At minimal, I'd replace the synchronizer keys, 3-4 shift fork, and get carbon blocking rings. You may want to also add bronze fork pads.

    Maybe some others might have some additional feedback.

    I see that my PM did not go through to you, I'll try sending it again. It's a link to a thread on a T56 rebuild and shows step-by-step on replacing the parts.

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    expensive tires az gt eater's Avatar
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    35th,can you share that link with me too?

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    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    I don't want to directly link it as it's on the "other site"...but since we don't have one here that I know of just type into the Google search bar "t56 rebuild how to". It's the 2nd link down

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    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    Here is some other great information: T56 Transmission Rebuild - GM High Tech Performance

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    Member Ant71130's Avatar
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    Appreciate the help. If so, in my pm, can you possibly go to that site (gearbox) and show me which "kit" or individual pieces i should get? It doesnt really grind, it just wont downshift. And from 4th itll go in, it just pops out once i engage the clutch lol.

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    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    I was going to answer your PM privately, but let's keep all questions here so everyone can see and offer any additional input on this for you.

    I suggested the steel 3-4 shift fork because the stock aluminum one is weak. So in that regard, it would be smart to go ahead and upgrade that while you have the transmission out as a safety precaution.

    Honestly, I'm not a transmission expert by any means, haha. When mine got stuck in 4th, I had a shop pull it and send it off to RPM transmission and they rebuilt it for me. I purchased their level IV upgrade and all the things I mentioned to you is what was upgraded on mine, in addition to a few other things like hand assembled sliders and hubs.

    I've actually never really read up on the internals on the T56 and what all is involved in changing out those items.

    I know that since I've gotten mine upgraded 2 years ago it's been flawless and I'm pushing 500rwhp/450ish rwtq.

    I do think with certainty though that the basic overhaul kit which includes the items you've mentioned takes care of all the weak links of the T56 other than the small mainshaft. There is a Viper shaft that's available which is larger, but even I did not include that in my rebuild and I've been fine.

    If you want, maybe send Firebirdjones and Cutlass a PM and link them to your thread and see if they have additional input. FBJ is very knowledgable and Cutlass is a Master certified ASE technician.

    I do believe that the carbon blocking rings are an aftermarket option and did not come as standard OEM equipment. Blocker rings are an intermediary part between the synchronizer sleeve and the gear cone. When the synchronizer sleeve slides over, it first pushes the blocker ring against the gear cone, and the blocker acts as a cone clutch to help speed up or slow down the gear to the desired speed prior to the synchronizer sleeve sliding over further to engage the gear. The carbon friction lining material is more resilient and offers improved high-energy performance. This allows the gearbox to better withstand aggressive shifting and leads to a longer life under typical high performance circumstances.

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    ʢ ൧ ൨ ൩ ൪ ൫ ൬ ൭ ൮Ր Ց Ւ Փ Smittro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    Here is a link to the T56 manual - http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2...-0610-0199.pdf

    Section 3-11 shoes a picture of where the 5th/6th synchro is.

    Popping out of gear is usually the result of that.

    I had my T56 fully rebuilt at 12K miles (so don't feel bad) because mine got stuck in 4th. I broke the synchronizer key. The factory keys are stamped and hollow so they are weak.

    The parts are cheap and there are rebuild kits you can buy for not much money...however, labor is where you are going to have to drop some cash.

    If you are mechanically inclined and can have the car down for some time, you could attempt it yourself. I know manual transmissions have a lot more parts than auto's so they are typically a little more difficult/time consuming to work on.

    I'm sure a few here have done so though and can guide you through it. I've personally never seen the inside of one other than through pictures.

    The other symptoms you describe could be indicative of something else going on also on top of a bad synchro...
    ????

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    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    I have that reversed

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    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    I have that reversed
    It's all good, as we age the first thing to go is the mind..

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    OP, if you'd like me to blow post #17 up if it will help I will gladly do so.

    Just take it easy on o what you have left so not to damage anything further.

    I believe Jon is right about being ok to not use gears as I have driven many different types of standard tranys that were going out some for a couple of years with dropped gears.

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    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smittro View Post
    It's all good, as we age the first thing to go is the mind..
    A more fair statement would be "both have a lot of parts"

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