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Having Issues Bleeding Clutch!

This is a discussion on Having Issues Bleeding Clutch! within the Manual Transmission forums, part of the Drivetrain category; ell guys the t56 swap is almost done. Tatertot (alex) came over today and we've spent almost 2 hours trying ...

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    Senior Member redbird555's Avatar
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    2002 Camaro Z/28 Pewter

    Having Issues Bleeding Clutch!

    ell guys the t56 swap is almost done. Tatertot (alex) came over today and we've spent almost 2 hours trying to bleed the clutch with the conventional method on the bleeder screw. I have little to no pedal pressure and everything is new, slave, ls6 clutch, and master. I first bled the master by holding the line open and just puring fluid into the reservoir once I had a full stream coming out i closed the valve and pumped the pedal and while it was being held down I would purge the line again eventually I just a full line of fluid coming out...

    Next we plugged the line into the slave and began to bleed and even though we have almost no pedal pressure every time the bleeder is cracked fluid comes out and a good amount mind you. So does anyone know if there could be an issue somewhere were overlooking or should I just go pick up a mighty vac in the morning and go from there?

    Thanks Dan

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    expensive tires az gt eater's Avatar
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    Mity Vac. Then, you can flush and bleed your brake lines too. It takes a little while to bleed with the Mity, can't even imagine trying it conventionally.

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    expensive tires az gt eater's Avatar
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    If you can't wait, hook everything up to your slave, then let it run till you have a solid stream coming out the bleeder. Then, try your press and crack method. Pre bleeding the line isn't doing you any good.

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    Senior Member redbird555's Avatar
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    ya thanks im going to pick up a mighty vac in the morning I was also going to add in the first post even with all the times i tried to purge the master line disconnected from the slave I still had no pedal pressure at all and from what i gather when the master is successfully bench bled it should be firm. could the master be bad or is there just that much air in there?

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    expensive tires az gt eater's Avatar
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    Bench bleeding the master is only the first step. You will have air in your system, and a dead pedal until you are seconds away from being done. I didn't bench bleed my new Tick master, and it only took me about a half hour to bleed the whole system with the Mity. (alone, I was, too). How you bleed the system with the Mity is as follows. Fill the res up. Stick the tube for Mity in the bottom of the res. There is a hole in there to stick it into. Pull about 8 times on the Mity to create suction. The mity should be frimly stuck in the res. Leave it right there. (Don't pull more than about 8 times. You can pull the seals in the system if you create too much suction.) Now, go in the car, and pump the clutch. (You will have to do this by hand for a little while.) So, pump it a few times. Then, go back under the hood, and without releasing the suction on the Mity, pull it out of the res. Top the res off. Repeat this procedure till you have it where you want it. If you release the suction on the Mity before you pull it out, then you will release all the air you just pulled out of the system back into the system. No need to go under the car at all. Hell, you don't even need a helper.

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    Senior Member redbird555's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by az gt eater View Post
    Bench bleeding the master is only the first step. You will have air in your system, and a dead pedal until you are seconds away from being done. I didn't bench bleed my new Tick master, and it only took me about a half hour to bleed the whole system with the Mity. (alone, I was, too). How you bleed the system with the Mity is as follows. Fill the res up. Stick the tube for Mity in the bottom of the res. There is a hole in there to stick it into. Pull about 8 times on the Mity to create suction. The mity should be frimly stuck in the res. Leave it right there. (Don't pull more than about 8 times. You can pull the seals in the system if you create too much suction.) Now, go in the car, and pump the clutch. (You will have to do this by hand for a little while.) So, pump it a few times. Then, go back under the hood, and without releasing the suction on the Mity, pull it out of the res. Top the res off. Repeat this procedure till you have it where you want it. If you release the suction on the Mity before you pull it out, then you will release all the air you just pulled out of the system back into the system. No need to go under the car at all. Hell, you don't even need a helper.
    Yup the mighty vac did it. I didnt even pump the pedal I just simply pumped it up to about 15 psi and let it sit for about 10 mins. Released it and pumped the pedal a couple times and felt pressure a bit so I did the same process a couple more times and viola, instant bled clutch! I took the car out for a small drive and the m6 is great only issue it my asr light is on which hopefully is just from the tune because I idnt touch anything with traction control.

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    expensive tires az gt eater's Avatar
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    The Mity Vac is the bomb. Glad I could help out so easily.

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    Senior Member redbird555's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by az gt eater View Post
    The Mity Vac is the bomb. Glad I could help out so easily.

    Ya man it got the job done sort of lol. I found out today while driving that if I'm at a light and quickly have to put it in gear the shifter hits a small wall for a second then drop in.... Also if I bring the rpms up over 2500ish and go from 1-2 if get a slight scratch going into 2nd. Now I was thinking it could have a bad synchro at first but wouldnt synchros grind going any speed and any rpm? I can run the car up to 5k and shift just a little slower and 2nd slips in fine. I can even be rolling along in neutral at say 20 mph and just push it into 2nd with no clutch and it will go right in with no grind so could it be the clutch is not disengaging fast enough and thats where my scratch comes from?

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    expensive tires az gt eater's Avatar
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    Stock master cylinder? That's my bet. You can try the "drill mod". Basically, you remove the line from the master to the slave, and drill out the obstruction that GM has in that line. If you still don't get full disengagement, then you are going to need to either shim the slave cylinder forward, or replace the master with an adjustable aftermarket one. Basically, I am saying that you are not getting full clutch DIS-engagement. No fault of the clutch itself, but of the hydraulics. And, if you are noticing it now, don't be an idiot like me, and ignore the problem. Pretty soon you won't have fourth gear. Again, like me. But, I have a nice shiny $500 Tick adjustable Master that works like a fat kid who's been promised cake.No offense to all you fat kids who like cake.......I like it too.

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    Senior Member redbird555's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by az gt eater View Post
    Stock master cylinder? That's my bet. You can try the "drill mod". Basically, you remove the line from the master to the slave, and drill out the obstruction that GM has in that line. If you still don't get full disengagement, then you are going to need to either shim the slave cylinder forward, or replace the master with an adjustable aftermarket one. Basically, I am saying that you are not getting full clutch DIS-engagement. No fault of the clutch itself, but of the hydraulics. And, if you are noticing it now, don't be an idiot like me, and ignore the problem. Pretty soon you won't have fourth gear. Again, like me. But, I have a nice shiny $500 Tick adjustable Master that works like a fat kid who's been promised cake.No offense to all you fat kids who like cake.......I like it too.
    Thanks man ya I already have the drill mod done. I'm just wondering is there anyway to tell its def not the synchro vs the the hydraulics? Like I said I'd think if it was synchros it would grind at any speed if I was trying to shift fast and the fact that it hits a wall at a stop def says hydraulics to me. If the synchros were bad would it grind goig in without the clutch? Because as i said if im rolling along at around 30 and dont use the clutch it will go into 2nd and not grind or protest its just when I use the clutch and am trying to shift quick.

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    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    Sounds like the clutch isn't fully disengaging to me.
    It's on jackstands.

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    Senior Member redbird555's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    Sounds like the clutch isn't fully disengaging to me.
    OK thanks guys so if it is just that how should I go about bleeding it the conventional way. Like I said it seems like its bled but obviously it still needs to go more should i just pump th pedal and crack the bleed screw? how will I know when its good?

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    expensive tires az gt eater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by az gt eater View Post
    Bench bleeding the master is only the first step. You will have air in your system, and a dead pedal until you are seconds away from being done. I didn't bench bleed my new Tick master, and it only took me about a half hour to bleed the whole system with the Mity. (alone, I was, too). How you bleed the system with the Mity is as follows. Fill the res up. Stick the tube for Mity in the bottom of the res. There is a hole in there to stick it into. Pull about 8 times on the Mity to create suction. The mity should be frimly stuck in the res. Leave it right there. (Don't pull more than about 8 times. You can pull the seals in the system if you create too much suction.) Now, go in the car, and pump the clutch. (You will have to do this by hand for a little while.) So, pump it a few times. Then, go back under the hood, and without releasing the suction on the Mity, pull it out of the res. Top the res off. Repeat this procedure till you have it where you want it. If you release the suction on the Mity before you pull it out, then you will release all the air you just pulled out of the system back into the system. No need to go under the car at all. Hell, you don't even need a helper.
    This is how you do it. But, I bet your master is weak. Try this once, it is easy to do, and doesn't even require jacking the car up. Speaking of jacking the car up, if you are still wondering if you are getting full disengagement or not, jack the rear up, put it on jack stands, then put the car in gear and hold the clutch in. If the tires spin AT ALL, you do not have full disengagement. Again, you can try a shim behind the slave, so that it in a sense gives it adjustment, or get the TICK. Good luck, and like I said, don't ignore it. YOu are just gonna screw up your tranny.

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    expensive tires az gt eater's Avatar
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    I just realized that I had already responded to your earlier thread about this before you started your project. You already know how to check for positive dis engagement. If you want me to bow out of this thread, just say so. I am only trying to help, not be pushy or know it all. I only know everything about one subject; roofing. That, and how to buy losing lottery tickets. I am DAMN good at that!

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    Senior Member redbird555's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by az gt eater View Post
    I just realized that I had already responded to your earlier thread about this before you started your project. You already know how to check for positive dis engagement. If you want me to bow out of this thread, just say so. I am only trying to help, not be pushy or know it all. I only know everything about one subject; roofing. That, and how to buy losing lottery tickets. I am DAMN good at that!
    Lol na man its all appreciated. I did check for the disengagement and yes it does do that fully however I think whats happening is the little bit of air in there may be not allowing the clutch to disengage quick enough and thus the grind or hard shift. I had the guys at an lsx shop as well as a friend who owns a hotrod shop down here drive it and both said that my pedal had about 1" of play in it and that it was air causing the issues not the tranny. while they were testing the car they did a series of downshifts, rev matching with clutchless shifting, and drops into 2nd gear none of which resulted in any grinding. The only time it would scratch in 2nd was on a hard quick 1-2 shift so would you all say that sounds like a disengagement problem?

    Just wondering but to those of you have a stock master or even a tick does your m/c immediatley have fluid pressure or is there play in it? Reason I ask is my pedal has about 1" of slack in it then you can feel it start to push fluid. And today when I came out of work it felt like it had even more slack than usualy and i had a hard time getting the car in gear.

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    Senior Member redbird555's Avatar
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    Well I finally arrived at the conclusion i got a bad M/C because it started losing pressure when sitting. So i figured screw it I may as well just get a tick. I got the tick installed today and the car shifts much smoother and I adjusted it so that the clutch engages halfway up the pedal.

    However this still hasnt solved my issue with 2nd gear. Again it only happens if I try to shift quick from 1st to 2nd I can shift into all other gears smoothly as fast as I want so I'm thinking synchros? Just looking for confirmation.

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    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    Other than a bad synchro all I can think of is maybe a bent fork. It shifts smooth into 2nd at lower RPM?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    Other than a bad synchro all I can think of is maybe a bent fork. It shifts smooth into 2nd at lower RPM?
    yup if i go slow or shift at low rpm it goes in smooth. even if i shift at high rpms and i just shift slower it will go in smooth so im thinking shifting lower gives the synchros more time to spin up and they go in smoother.

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    Senior Member redbird555's Avatar
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    So yesterday I get the call that the car is ready and it got new fork pads synchro rings, synchro keys in 2nd and blocker rings. This comes after they charged me $150 more than they originally quoted me..... I go there and go for a ride with the tech and immediatley after a hard quick shift I felt it grind twice same as before but other times it would go in smoothly, however the problem was still somewhat there so I told them to take it back till they fixed it right. They said the synchro hub, fork, and gear looked fine but I'm not sure if I believe that maybe they just didnt want to charge me more for the right parts or figured it would be fine?

    What else could be causing a quick 2nd gear grind? I can down shift it perfectly fine. I was thinking maybe shift fork or could since its an early 98 t56 have the weak bad 2nd gear in it??? I just want to know so on monday they dont blow smoke up my ass....

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    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    Since you can shift at lower RPM and not under WOT and it's only happening in 2nd gear, I am pretty certain that is a bad/weak synchronizer.

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