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clutch master??

This is a discussion on clutch master?? within the Manual Transmission forums, part of the Drivetrain category; I changed my clutch master cylinder on my '01 camaro ss. I'm having trouble getting pressure back on my pedal. ...

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    SUNSET ORANGE
    2001 CAMARO SS

    clutch master??

    I changed my clutch master cylinder on my '01 camaro ss. I'm having trouble getting pressure back on my pedal. I filled the resevoir up with fluid and we pumped the clutch a few times and held it down. I then cracked open the bleeder and fluid and air came out. We did this process a gazillion times and I still don't have any pressure what so ever on my pedal. I was told to have someone hold the pedal down and have the bleeder open.......and fluid should just leak out of the bleeder. This does not happen. With the pedal down and bleeder open, there is not fluid coming out.

    Any ideas on how to get pressure back in my pedal???

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    your slave could be bad. When you were bleeding the system, did you make sure to keep the master reservoir full? If not then air probably got trapped in it and you'll need to get a mity vac and use that, or uninstall and bench bleed again. If you have to put a slave in, you might as well upgrade the clutch.

    best advise in the world is to swap out the clutch fluid in the master reservoir with fresh dot 4 about every gas fill up or whenever the fluid starts to darken. I've been through many clutches with my car and had your headache, MANY times... I finally found out what works for me. My clutches used to last 5000-10,000 miles and this one is on 16,xxx and going strong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7camaro7 View Post
    your slave could be bad. When you were bleeding the system, did you make sure to keep the master reservoir full? If not then air probably got trapped in it and you'll need to get a mity vac and use that, or uninstall and bench bleed again. If you have to put a slave in, you might as well upgrade the clutch.

    best advise in the world is to swap out the clutch fluid in the master reservoir with fresh dot 4 about every gas fill up or whenever the fluid starts to darken. I've been through many clutches with my car and had your headache, MANY times... I finally found out what works for me. My clutches used to last 5000-10,000 miles and this one is on 16,xxx and going strong.
    That doesn't sound right at all to me....

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    SUNSET ORANGE
    2001 CAMARO SS

    Thanks for the reply!
    I installed the master.... then put fluid in the resevoir ...and then attempted to bleed it. Me and my brother did the bleeding process for a good 30-40 minutes. There is fluid coming out the bleeder when I crack it. It doesn't pour out or anything. I get maybe a tablespoon of fluid at a time and then nothing. Then we cycled the clutch pedal up and down a few times and broke the bleeder loose again. Same issue though...a tiny bit of fluid will seap out and then I'll fasten the bleeder valve back up and still, no pressure on my pedal. I would have thought for sure after doing this process for 40 minutes that I would have some sort of pressure on the pedal. Maybe there is still air in the line and I have to use that mity vac. Where can I get one of those at??? And is bench bleeding different then the process I am doing now??

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7camaro7 View Post
    your slave could be bad. When you were bleeding the system, did you make sure to keep the master reservoir full? If not then air probably got trapped in it and you'll need to get a mity vac and use that, or uninstall and bench bleed again. If you have to put a slave in, you might as well upgrade the clutch.

    best advise in the world is to swap out the clutch fluid in the master reservoir with fresh dot 4 about every gas fill up or whenever the fluid starts to darken. I've been through many clutches with my car and had your headache, MANY times... I finally found out what works for me. My clutches used to last 5000-10,000 miles and this one is on 16,xxx and going strong.
    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    That doesn't sound right at all to me....
    That's the part that got me..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smittro View Post
    That's the part that got me..

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7camaro7 View Post
    your slave could be bad. When you were bleeding the system, did you make sure to keep the master reservoir full? If not then air probably got trapped in it and you'll need to get a mity vac and use that, or uninstall and bench bleed again. If you have to put a slave in, you might as well upgrade the clutch.

    best advise in the world is to swap out the clutch fluid in the master reservoir with fresh dot 4 about every gas fill up or whenever the fluid starts to darken. I've been through many clutches with my car and had your headache, MANY times... I finally found out what works for me. My clutches used to last 5000-10,000 miles and this one is on 16,xxx and going strong.
    Yeah seriously...WTF??

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    master

    I just replaced my master, and slave cylinder. You might want to take out you master again and bench bleed it first, and make sure there is no kinks or cuts in the line. You can pick up a vacuum bleeder from an advance auto or auto zone. If they don't have one in stock they can order one for you. Make sure you have the right size hose to go over the valve bleeder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    That doesn't sound right at all to me....
    it is possible that I drive my car a little bit harder than you do lol
    Quote Originally Posted by JDCAMARO99 View Post
    Thanks for the reply!
    I installed the master.... then put fluid in the resevoir ...and then attempted to bleed it. Me and my brother did the bleeding process for a good 30-40 minutes. There is fluid coming out the bleeder when I crack it. It doesn't pour out or anything. I get maybe a tablespoon of fluid at a time and then nothing. Then we cycled the clutch pedal up and down a few times and broke the bleeder loose again. Same issue though...a tiny bit of fluid will seap out and then I'll fasten the bleeder valve back up and still, no pressure on my pedal. I would have thought for sure after doing this process for 40 minutes that I would have some sort of pressure on the pedal. Maybe there is still air in the line and I have to use that mity vac. Where can I get one of those at??? And is bench bleeding different then the process I am doing now??
    bench bleeding is this> a clutch master cylinder disconnected from the car and the complete unit in your hand. Make sure the braided line is connected to the mc as well as the black hose that goes to the reservoir.

    You may need a friend to help with this part. One of you holds the mc and pumps the rod. The other keeps the reservoir full of fluid. You keep pumping until it gets rock solid(i know it sounds dirty).

    After its solid I suggest you move the mc to different angles by tilting it while pumping at the same time. This will make sure you get ALL the air out.

    When done and the mc is still rock solid, put the rubber seal in the reservoir and the cap on. Now its bench bleed.

    Afterwards, install it into the car while keeping the cap on the reservoir and all the mc stuff, still attached to the mc. Connect the quick connect to the slave.

    Try to bleed again. After every 2 cracks of the slave, get your buddy to fill the reservoir up to the step(about a notch from being completely full).

    If after a maybe 10 times of trying this, and you still have the same issue, it could be your slave cylinder.

    I always had issues with slave cylinders and clutches. I do drive my car pretty hard. I had issues with using underpowered clutches for my car. I learned quickly that the stock clutch is useless unless you're stock. It doesn't take much power to overcome it. My other issue was having an import shop install my first performance clutch. I don't know what they did, but it didn't last long. I did a lot of trial and error to get me to where I am to keep a clutch in my car and be happy with it at the same time.

    When you use an underpowered clutch with your car and like to powershift(shift without lifting off the gas), your clutch will slip. If underpowered, your clutch will slip really bad on these kinds of shifts and will heat up your clutch fluid very quickly. You know what happens? This pressure, which is built up from all the heat, will pop the weakest link in the hydraulic system. In my case it was the slave pretty much every time. At the same time this slipping is going on you're burning up clutch material so you're toasting the clutch.

    I tried all the fancy stuff(McLeod adjustable Master cylinders) and found out they will do you no good at all what so ever.

    As soon as I had a reputable shop(Chevy dealership) put in my kickass clutch(southbend stage 3 (638lb/tq)) with a new stock slave and a new stock Master cylinder, I've not had any issues until my clutch fluid gets dirty.

    During aggressive driving which my car sees a lot of from me lol(I have fun, WHAT?) Clutch dust gets into the seals at the slave cylinder which is what turns the fluid dark. As long as you get a syringe to suck out the old, wipe the mc reservoir cup clean, and add new dot 4 she'll run like a champ all the time

    I learned all this from experience. This is what works for me.

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    SUNSET ORANGE
    2001 CAMARO SS

    thanks for the info man. Highly appreciated.
    So I started doing the bleeding process this morning. I have the MC installed back again and was doing post bleed...I noticed braked fluid dripping from the transmission case. It is a steady drip. I don't think this is good. There is a little airvent or something at the bottom of the transmission...and as I was cracking the bleeder screw I noticed something dripping out of the corner of my eye. I saw a steady drop of fluid coming from that vent. If you follow it up, it looks like it comes from the same casing as the slave. I'm not sure if this means the slave is bad...or a seal or something on the slave is bad...but I take it that this is no good. Is this correct???

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    Quote Originally Posted by JDCAMARO99 View Post
    thanks for the info man. Highly appreciated.
    So I started doing the bleeding process this morning. I have the MC installed back again and was doing post bleed...I noticed braked fluid dripping from the transmission case. It is a steady drip. I don't think this is good. There is a little airvent or something at the bottom of the transmission...and as I was cracking the bleeder screw I noticed something dripping out of the corner of my eye. I saw a steady drop of fluid coming from that vent. If you follow it up, it looks like it comes from the same casing as the slave. I'm not sure if this means the slave is bad...or a seal or something on the slave is bad...but I take it that this is no good. Is this correct???
    sounds like your slave could be bad.... I am not sure though.

    I know about what I told you at first, how to install/uninstall a clutch mc, and that's pretty much it. I never got all the tools to do a full clutch/slave swap, but from what you're telling me it sounds like your slave is probably bad. In this case no amount of bleeding in the world will help you.

    If/When you find out its the slave, I highly highly highly suggest you upgrade the clutch. What kind of power are you making?

    My clutch is (yes/no) overkill for my car. I have a full bolton m6 SS and my clutch is rated to 638ftlbs. I have no where near that, but my shit is strong now. After all my research I learned that maintaining the clutch fluid in the reservoir will do wonders. If you let the fluid get too dirty, it'll compromise the seals and eventually lead you to a leak(probably at the slave).

    I suggest you go ahead and uninstall the mc again and do the drill mod. Look it up on installuniversity.com. If you need anymore help holler.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JDCAMARO99 View Post
    thanks for the info man. Highly appreciated.
    So I started doing the bleeding process this morning. I have the MC installed back again and was doing post bleed...I noticed braked fluid dripping from the transmission case. It is a steady drip. I don't think this is good. There is a little airvent or something at the bottom of the transmission...and as I was cracking the bleeder screw I noticed something dripping out of the corner of my eye. I saw a steady drop of fluid coming from that vent. If you follow it up, it looks like it comes from the same casing as the slave. I'm not sure if this means the slave is bad...or a seal or something on the slave is bad...but I take it that this is no good. Is this correct???
    I found when bleeding the slave cylinder and cracking the bleeder screw, that fluid did also run down inside the bellhousing, and would drip at or near the bottom. Was the result of using a socket with ratchet on the bleeder, and the fluid didn't have anywhere to go.
    I simply hose it out real well with brake clean, work the clutch a few times after it's dried up and make sure everything is good to go.

    I've never had to bench bleed the master cylinder before install, that's a mess and a big waste of time. Here is a quicker method that is much cleaner and very easy. Requires no special vac pumps and can be done in about 1 minute.

    Install it on the car dry, install the rubber line to the reservoir. Get under the car and disconnect the braided line from the slave, leaving it attached to the master. Hold it over a small container.

    Fill the reservoir, and have someone watch it to keep it full. Get under the car and use a tiny screw driver to open the small check valve inside the braided hose. At first nothing but air comes out. Once you have a steady stream of fluid coming out that's it,,,your done. The check valve closes when you release it and all air is removed. Simply plug it back into the slave under the car. Top off the reservoir again if necessary.

    From this point only should you start with the bleeding process pumping the pedal. The only air left in the system now is right at the slave cylinder and you should already feel some pedal pressure.
    Should only take 3-4 pumping/bleeding procedures to rid all the air from the slave and your good to go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    I found when bleeding the slave cylinder and cracking the bleeder screw, that fluid did also run down inside the bellhousing, and would drip at or near the bottom. Was the result of using a socket with ratchet on the bleeder, and the fluid didn't have anywhere to go.
    ^^^Yep

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    SS#430 1 of 74 7camaro7's Avatar
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    how is bench bleeding a mess and waste of time?

    bench bleeding is WAY more convenient than all the stuff you said.

    bench bleeding

    person 1: hold and keep reservoir full
    person 2: pump mc

    Takes less than 5min and as soon as it is rock solid you're done

    With what you said

    Person 1: fill reservoir
    Person 2: pump clutch pedal
    Person 2or3: Stick open valve on braided line(messy and unconfortable under car and may take a 3rd person) also may waste fluid as well as get your dirtier than necessary

    My way can possibly be done with one person if they have a clamp to hold the mc, you won't waste fluid, won't get dirty, its fast and easy

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7camaro7 View Post
    how is bench bleeding a mess and waste of time?

    bench bleeding is WAY more convenient than all the stuff you said.

    bench bleeding

    person 1: hold and keep reservoir full
    person 2: pump mc

    Takes less than 5min and as soon as it is rock solid you're done

    With what you said

    Person 1: fill reservoir
    Person 2: pump clutch pedal
    Person 2or3: Stick open valve on braided line(messy and unconfortable under car and may take a 3rd person) also may waste fluid as well as get your dirtier than necessary

    My way can possibly be done with one person if they have a clamp to hold the mc, you won't waste fluid, won't get dirty, its fast and easy
    Wont get dirty? lol gotta take the dress off sometime.jk
    Last edited by Smittro; 09-20-2009 at 11:29 AM.

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    ohhh oh ho ho, good one

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7camaro7 View Post
    ohhh oh ho ho, good one
    Just funnin' ya no insult intended bud..

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7camaro7 View Post
    how is bench bleeding a mess and waste of time?

    bench bleeding is WAY more convenient than all the stuff you said.

    bench bleeding

    person 1: hold and keep reservoir full
    person 2: pump mc

    Takes less than 5min and as soon as it is rock solid you're done

    With what you said

    Person 1: fill reservoir
    Person 2: pump clutch pedal
    Person 2or3: Stick open valve on braided line(messy and unconfortable under car and may take a 3rd person) also may waste fluid as well as get your dirtier than necessary

    My way can possibly be done with one person if they have a clamp to hold the mc, you won't waste fluid, won't get dirty, its fast and easy
    My way is more work????? Hahaha, are you sure you know what we are talking about here???

    I can't even fathem trying to bench bleed a clutch master cylinder. For starters the reservoir is a seperate part, with a rubber hose attachment. Would be a 2 man job at the least, one to hold the reservoir up above the master cylinder and the other to pump.
    Then the question I have is,,,where is all that fluid going??? With the braided line removed it's going all over the place. Not sure how you could connect a hose to the bottom of the master and run it back up into the seperate reservoir. You can't leave the braided line on there,,,,it has a check valve in the bottom (as I already mentioned) and won't allow fluid to pass unless it's pushed in.

    Like I said,,,,it's much much simpler to just install the entire master cylinder unit, reservoir, hose, braided line etc....just as if it was ready to work on the car. Installing it dry takes out the possibility of spilling corrosive hydraulic fluid everywhere.

    From here it's simple. Fill the reservoir. Get under the car and simply remove the braided line from the slave at the trans. You are going to be under there anyway for the final bleeding procedure, so none of this is an extra step. You can't bleed the car from the top in any situation so if you are uncomfortable under the car, you shouldn't be doing this anyway.
    Once the braided line is disconnected, which is very simple to do by the way,,It's just a quick release clip,,you simply push in the check valve. Gravity will pull the hydraulic fluid down through the master cylinder and braided line,,and start to drip. Just stick the hose over a bucket and there is no mess,,,common man I shouldn't have to explain that,,,,lol. Keep the reservoir topped off,,,once you have a steady stream coming out of the braided line you are done. That's it. Just push the braided line back on until the you hear the quick release clip snap into place. The whole thing takes about 30 seconds to do.

    Once that's done, the only air left in the system is right at the slave cylinder where the bleed screw is. The rest of the system is bled and done. Simply pump the pedal a few times and crack the screw.

    Trust me it's the most effective way to get the air out and uses the least amount of brake fluid, and saves all that bench bleeding crap, making messes everywhere,,,and saves a ton of time pumping that pedal too. Because bench bleeding still leaves a ton of air in the rest of the system when it's all connected,, remember bench bleeding is only getting air out of the master,,,that's it,,,,,leaving you pumping the crap out of the clutch pedal trying to remove air from the braided line as well as the master. That's just messy, because you can't catch the fluid coming from the bleeder screw,,,most of it runs into the bellhousing and drips from the bottom as I already mentioned.

    Try this method,,,trust me you'll like it and wonder why you bothered bench bleeding, then pumping the clutch pedal for another 1/2 hour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    My way is more work????? Hahaha, are you sure you know what we are talking about here???

    I can't even fathem trying to bench bleed a clutch master cylinder. For starters the reservoir is a seperate part, with a rubber hose attachment. Would be a 2 man job at the least, one to hold the reservoir up above the master cylinder and the other to pump.
    Then the question I have is,,,where is all that fluid going??? With the braided line removed it's going all over the place. Not sure how you could connect a hose to the bottom of the master and run it back up into the seperate reservoir. You can't leave the braided line on there,,,,it has a check valve in the bottom (as I already mentioned) and won't allow fluid to pass unless it's pushed in.

    Like I said,,,,it's much much simpler to just install the entire master cylinder unit, reservoir, hose, braided line etc....just as if it was ready to work on the car. Installing it dry takes out the possibility of spilling corrosive hydraulic fluid everywhere.

    From here it's simple. Fill the reservoir. Get under the car and simply remove the braided line from the slave at the trans. You are going to be under there anyway for the final bleeding procedure, so none of this is an extra step. You can't bleed the car from the top in any situation so if you are uncomfortable under the car, you shouldn't be doing this anyway.
    Once the braided line is disconnected, which is very simple to do by the way,,It's just a quick release clip,,you simply push in the check valve. Gravity will pull the hydraulic fluid down through the master cylinder and braided line,,and start to drip. Just stick the hose over a bucket and there is no mess,,,common man I shouldn't have to explain that,,,,lol. Keep the reservoir topped off,,,once you have a steady stream coming out of the braided line you are done. That's it. Just push the braided line back on until the you hear the quick release clip snap into place. The whole thing takes about 30 seconds to do.

    Once that's done, the only air left in the system is right at the slave cylinder where the bleed screw is. The rest of the system is bled and done. Simply pump the pedal a few times and crack the screw.

    Trust me it's the most effective way to get the air out and uses the least amount of brake fluid, and saves all that bench bleeding crap, making messes everywhere,,,and saves a ton of time pumping that pedal too. Because bench bleeding still leaves a ton of air in the rest of the system when it's all connected,, remember bench bleeding is only getting air out of the master,,,that's it,,,,,leaving you pumping the crap out of the clutch pedal trying to remove air from the braided line as well as the master. That's just messy, because you can't catch the fluid coming from the bleeder screw,,,most of it runs into the bellhousing and drips from the bottom as I already mentioned.

    Try this method,,,trust me you'll like it and wonder why you bothered bench bleeding, then pumping the clutch pedal for another 1/2 hour.
    you and i are talking about way different things.

    my bench bleeding method(not sure if its what everyone else is calling bench bleeding is still way easier than what you're talking about.

    My bench bleeding in a very detailed way is:

    Start with the reservoir, black hose, mc, braided line all connected to eachother in your hand and out of the car. Say you're in your kitchen with this.

    With one other person, they will hold the reservoir and dot 4 fluid and I hold the mc. no one holds the CLOSED braided line. Opening that is completely unnecessary so just let it hang.

    One person pumps the mc, while the other keeps fluid in the mc. No more fluid is used than what the system takes at the point that it gets rock solid. The thing is when before it gets solid air in the mc will allow you to pump it(even if the braided line is closed). One person pumps, one person pours dot 4 in. How hard is that?

    As said before, when it gets rock solid you put the seal and lid on and install it to the car. This will have the mc completely bled.

    Now all this was done in maybe 3 min, NO/0%/nada/NOT ONE DRIP OF fluid was wasted(all fluid used will be in system), and it was all done while standing up.
    __________________________________________________ ______

    ok, with what you were saying sounds like mc is already installed to the car with a bucket under the disconnected braided line. One person pours fluid in(which happens to be damn close to paint and guess what? accidents happen and where do they happen? ON YOUR PAINT). The other person is under car with a screw driver or something to open the valve to let it drip into a bucket. Now tell me how you keep the fluid from dripping down, what ever is holding the valve open, onto you and your arms the floor... Also, I just don't imagine you taking your bucket and pouring all that fluid back into a small brake fluid container. Also IF YOU DID, guess what the fluid in the bucket is doing while you're wasting time under the car at that point... THE BRAKE FLUID IS ATTRACTING MOISTURE very quickly! I woudln't even bother trying to reuse that. I'm not saying that your method will not bleed an mc, I'm just saying my way is MUCH easier, and it is just as bled(the reservoir will be full of fluid, the black line is full of fluid, the mc is full, the braided line is full)

    I don't understand why you think I need to open the braided line. With my method it will pump if air is in it and decrease as the air gets out. When it is full of fluid the rod will not move and I don't have to do anything the braided line or worry about pouring a bucket into a bottle.

    if you have a work bench with a clamp my way can be done with only 1 person. the clamp can hold the mc, my right hand can pump while my left hand holds the reservoir. when I see the fluid getting low, I can take my right hand pour some in and get right back to pumping. If I was going for a record time I could do this in 1min after the clamp is already holding the mc. That's by my self.

    your way is highly unlikely with one person.
    Last edited by 7camaro7; 09-20-2009 at 05:42 PM.

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