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what do I need to get to 400 hp.

This is a discussion on what do I need to get to 400 hp. within the External Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; my 99 ss vert had a tb a lid slp long tubes and cats bolra exhaust m6 fact 3.42 no ...

  1. #21
    Junior Member 99ss405's Avatar
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    my 99 ss vert had a tb a lid slp long tubes and cats bolra exhaust m6 fact 3.42 no tune hurt me it made 330 rwhp
    my 99 z with A4 stock heads t rex cam ls6 intake at the time with a tune made like 371 rwhp 2.73 gears 28 inch tall dr's
    Last edited by 99ss405; 02-20-2015 at 03:39 PM.

  2. #22
    Junior Member RCH33's Avatar
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    I just had a baseline done last week. The current setup is mostly stock. SLP lid with K&N filter. Grannatelli MAF. SLP Lm1 of Lm2 (not sure which, was already installed).
    On a Dynojet it did 317 HP & 324 Torque average of 3 runs.

    Next week I am removing the Grannatelli MAF and replacing with a new factory GM MAF with screen. I will have it tuned as it is running real rich through the entire range.

    I will report back after the next Dyno and tune. My tuner thinks because it never has been tuned and because it is running so rich, he is hoping for 15-25 HP gain.
    This is at the wheels so at the crank, it is easily in the 350+ range. They were easily under rated from the factory.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Naaman's Avatar
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    Those are good numbers, I think.

    Not sure if you'll notice a ~20 hp gain at the seat of the pants, but the tune should solve other issues as well (how is your fuel economy given that you're running rich?).
    Lid, Throttle Body, LS6 Intake, Heads, Cam, Magnaflow, LS7 Clutch, SFCs, STB, Panhard Bar, Strano Springs, Hollow Sway Bars, Poly/Roto LCAs, Konis, MGW Shifter

  4. #24
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    The stock tune commands somewhere in the range of 11.5 AFR when running WOT so your tuner is probably right, you are likely running a stock tune.

    If in fact it was that rich, your tuner is pretty spot on in hoping for that much HP gain when it's leaned out to a more acceptable AFR.

    Naaman, his light throttle cruising with 02's trimming fuel at 14.7ish should provide him with normal fuel economy if he drives civilized and stays out of PE. All these cars run rich at WOT with stock tune, that's just the way GM set them up to reduce warranty claims and keep the engine well into the safe zone.

  5. #25
    Junior Member RCH33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naaman View Post
    Those are good numbers, I think.

    Not sure if you'll notice a ~20 hp gain at the seat of the pants, but the tune should solve other issues as well (how is your fuel economy given that you're running rich?).
    Not sure either, but hoping for a better overall performance. But, your correct on other issues. When I bought the car, I drove 500 miles home. I was barely able to get 24-25 mpg at 65-75 on the highway. I have a friend with basically same car and he gets close to 30 at those speeds.

    I am also going to change out the exhaust to a Magnaflow cat back, I got a good price from KY Speed. The SLP is just too loud for me and the installation was not very good.

  6. #26
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    ~25ish mpg is actually pretty normal with a stock tune, and PE coming in very fast with little throttle on a stock tune. Truck tunes are even worse for this.

    It wasn't until I tuned mine when I started seeing 30 mpg highway with the 6 speed, and my auto was seeing 26 mpg highway.

    Before the tunes the best the 6 speed would do was 26ish and the auto would only tickle 24 highway.

  7. #27
    Junior Member roadtrip505's Avatar
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    From factory what do they rate the WS6?

  8. #28
    Junior Member RCH33's Avatar
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    From factory the 01 and 02 WS6 was rated at 325hp. The SLP Firehawk was 345hp. Not sure about the Firehawk, but most think the WS6's were under rated from the factory and was more in the 350ish range. Mine only has the SLP lid and an SLP exhaust and without tune on a Dynojet Dyno I t was showing 317hp at the wheels that should put it over 350hp at the crank.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Whamhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    The stock tune commands somewhere in the range of 11.5 AFR when running WOT so your tuner is probably right, you are likely running a stock tune.

    If in fact it was that rich, your tuner is pretty spot on in hoping for that much HP gain when it's leaned out to a more acceptable AFR.

    Naaman, his light throttle cruising with 02's trimming fuel at 14.7ish should provide him with normal fuel economy if he drives civilized and stays out of PE. All these cars run rich at WOT with stock tune, that's just the way GM set them up to reduce warranty claims and keep the engine well into the safe zone.
    If factory is putting WOT AFR at 11.5:1, whereabouts are tuners putting lightly modded/stockish WOT AFRs at?

    Also "PE"?

  10. #30
    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    With boost, I'm at 11.7 at WOT. PE = Power Enrichment. That's about all I know lol.
    It's on jackstands.

  11. #31
    Senior Member Whamhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    With boost, I'm at 11.7 at WOT. PE = Power Enrichment. That's about all I know lol.
    I guess 2% leaner goes a long way?

  12. #32
    Junior Member RCH33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whamhammer View Post
    If factory is putting WOT AFR at 11.5:1, whereabouts are tuners putting lightly modded/stockish WOT AFRs at?

    Also "PE"?
    My tuner is going 13 plus a little. He says that is a good safe range. He might also up the timing a degree or two. He says he's not found one yet that couldn't go a degree or two. He says the next thing to look at us the "knock blocker". It will retire the timing at least 2degrees if it just thinks you are getting close to knocking even if you don't. Then it ups timing a degree at a time until it retards it again. Not sure what he does, he just wants to keep it out of this cycle.

    Was hoping for the tune this week but have put off until next to install the Magnaflow cat back in place of the SLP system. I also have a y-adapter coming that will allow me to use the IAT in the new GM MAF.

  13. #33
    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whamhammer View Post
    I guess 2% leaner goes a long way?
    Mine was a bad example as FI is different than N/A. I'll let FBJ comment since he deals a lot with this sort of thing. I only know enough about tuning to destroy a motor quickly lol.

  14. #34
    Junior Member RCH33's Avatar
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    Got the tune and have new numbers. After replacing the Grannatelli MAF with a factory Replacement MAF with the built in IAT, replacing the SLP loudmouth (the guts had been removed, so basically was straight pipes no muffler) with a Magnaflow cat back, and a tune to high end factory. I reported the process that my tuner used in the Dyno forum thread. Here are the numbers:

    Baseline 317 hp. 324 torque
    After tune 338 hp. 350 torque another run had it at 355 but hp was down a little.

    A pickup of 21 hp and 26 ft/lbs of torque. My tuner set the air/fuel to around 13. It was running rich at 11.5 or less. This should also give me better gas mileage. He also set timing up a little but not enough where the knock block would kick in.

    I'm actually running a tune now that gives me 21.44/29.5 hp/torque gain. I have the cat protector turned back on so it riches a little at 4500 rpm to keep the cats cool.

  15. #35
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whamhammer View Post
    If factory is putting WOT AFR at 11.5:1, whereabouts are tuners putting lightly modded/stockish WOT AFRs at?

    Also "PE"?
    Every engine will respond a bit differently, even the same type of engine, but a range of 12.5 -13.5 AFR or somewhere in there is where you usually find best power. Leaner will make more HP but when you get into the peak torque area of the curve, those leaner ratios can be the cause of detonation.

    This peak torque area is also where you generally pull a couple degrees of timing out, then ramp it back in as RPM climbs out of peak torque.

    You can also get fancy and richen certain cylinders. I think the LS engine has a tendency to run lean on #7, so it's not uncommon to see tuners lengthen the injector pulse width in this cylinder.

    Generally speaking, I prefer to sacrifice a few HP with a slightly richer AFR to keep the engine safe. Just not worth the risk. Especially living out here in the Western states where we only have 91 octane and even that sucks. The richer fuel mixture helps to quench detonation to some degree.

    PE is power enrichment mode, where the engine enters open loop under load. Couple things need to be met, one of which is throttle position, which is adjustable. The 02's at this point are out of the picture and the AFR becomes what ever is commanded in the tune.

  16. #36
    Junior Member RCH33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Every engine will respond a bit differently, even the same type of engine, but a range of 12.5 -13.5 AFR or somewhere in there is where you usually find best power.

    Generally speaking, I prefer to sacrifice a few HP with a slightly richer AFR to keep the engine safe. Just not worth the risk. Especially living out here in the Western states where we only have 91 octane and even that sucks. The richer fuel mixture helps to quench detonation to some degree.

    PE is power enrichment mode, where the engine enters open loop under load. Couple things need to be met, one of which is throttle position, which is adjustable. The 02's at this point are out of the picture and the AFR becomes what ever is commanded in the tune.
    My tuner tuned so that it would not get to the knock block. He took a little timing out and enrichened at that point. He preferred a continuous full pull.

    Fortunately Shell has 93 octane here but then goes to 89. I believe my tuner said that I was running under the VE table until about 4000rpm and then the MAF takes over.

    The tune that I am running is not the best hp and torque (1 of each less), but gives a steady pull without knock block pulling any timing out. I have a run where you can actually see it on the chart during the pull.

  17. #37
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    You can desensitize knock retard in the tune by lowering the sensitivity of the sensors, and controlling how fast it pulls timing out as well as how fast it ramps it back in, and also including how much timing you want pulled out.

    Some tuners remove it entirely. Either way, you need to have a good ear as to what the engine is doing because it doesn't data log any knock if you remove it or desensitize it too much.

    To have them working is a nice logging tool to have, but they can also be a real pain if you have any false knock going on.

  18. #38
    Senior Member Whamhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Every engine will respond a bit differently, even the same type of engine, but a range of 12.5 -13.5 AFR or somewhere in there is where you usually find best power. Leaner will make more HP but when you get into the peak torque area of the curve, those leaner ratios can be the cause of detonation.

    This peak torque area is also where you generally pull a couple degrees of timing out, then ramp it back in as RPM climbs out of peak torque.

    You can also get fancy and richen certain cylinders. I think the LS engine has a tendency to run lean on #7, so it's not uncommon to see tuners lengthen the injector pulse width in this cylinder.

    Generally speaking, I prefer to sacrifice a few HP with a slightly richer AFR to keep the engine safe. Just not worth the risk. Especially living out here in the Western states where we only have 91 octane and even that sucks. The richer fuel mixture helps to quench detonation to some degree.

    PE is power enrichment mode, where the engine enters open loop under load. Couple things need to be met, one of which is throttle position, which is adjustable. The 02's at this point are out of the picture and the AFR becomes what ever is commanded in the tune.
    Thats good to know, I wouldnt mind a little more power , drivability, and fuel efficiency, while having a safe setup. I can give up a few hp and tq for that.

  19. #39
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    You can definitely pick up some power with a simple tune, even on a stock engine, and still keep the tune very safe.

    Since these tunes "stock" will command 11.5-11.7 AFR, they don't make the HP they could, and that's extremely rich for a naturally aspirated engine. That's more like an AFR you would see when running a power adder.

    Even if you just leaned out that WOT AFR to about 12.5 you are going to pickup probably 10-15 HP and still be extremely safe.

    If you want to push it and lean it out to 13.0-13.3 you could see 20 HP but that's on the ragged edge of safe.

    On timing it depends on the year of the LS engine you're dealing with as to how much you can get away with, because they changed cam profiles and cylinder head designs throughout the LS1 production run.

    Usually the older 98-00 models like 26 and even 28 degrees at WOT for best power, while the 01-02 models tend to like 23-25 degrees. The LS6 engines also don't need as much ignition lead to make power either.

    My 00 SS for example with it's original heads, but running a custom smallish Vinci cam, only likes about 25-26 total timing at WOT with 94 octane. When I moved out west and had to feed it a diet of 91, it had detonation issues right away, and was pulling 4 degrees out of it (the most it will pull as that's where I have it set)
    I had to go in and log, and retune the entire timing table map and found the engine just didn't like anymore than 21-22 degrees total timing at WOT on this cat pee we have for gas out here. It now runs pretty clean throughout a pull, and on the hottest days you might only see 1 degree of timing pulled in just a hand full of various timing blocks. That's not enough to worry about. As ambient temps cool off it goes away completely.
    With that said, you can see why I prefer to have my AFR's a little richer. I tune this car with a pretty steady 12.6 AFR at WOT to help with the detonation. It's a tad rich, and I could go leaner and make a little more HP but at the risk of more detonation. I'd rather play it safe. Never know when you might get a bad tank of gas too, and that's another reason to have a richer AFR.

    That's another subject, since we have ethanol blend fuels. Supposed to be 10% but I've seen 17% mixed in some stations, it's not regulated very well.
    10% ethanol has a 14:1 stoich, while real gas is the normal 14.7:1 we are used to hearing about. So with ethanol mixed gasoline, you should be tuning for a richer AFR anyway to compensate. Approximately .7 difference in AFR's. Trying to run 14.7:1 stoich with 10% ethanol fuel is running the engine a little lean.
    Last edited by Firebirdjones; 08-29-2015 at 12:43 PM.

  20. #40
    Junior Member RCH33's Avatar
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    There are so many things that goes into these engines. I run 93 octane so we set it for full pulls and without knock around 13 AFR. My tuner did that without cat protection turned on. When we turned on cat protection at over 4500 rpm, it richened to around 12.5 to keep the cats cool. One could definatly get loss with everything you could do. So easy to tear one of these up if your not sure what your doing.

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