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Tried to fix P0430, got a fist full of new codes instead!

This is a discussion on Tried to fix P0430, got a fist full of new codes instead! within the External Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; As far as I know, GM has never used the post cat sensors to control a/f on any vehicles. Unless ...

  1. #21
    None Shall Pass Knight's Avatar
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    As far as I know, GM has never used the post cat sensors to control a/f on any vehicles. Unless your harnesses were swapped and you didn't know it, you are incorrect. There is no way the rear O2s would be used for control of the a/f.

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    well that is sure funny then! i helped him cut the fronts off. then hook the back set up in the headers. and to this day i still have no problems. and i bought this car off the showroom floor. it is still a stock car persay. cam headers and exhaust. everything else is stock. and zero codes.

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    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    Sorry, but I am not wrong. There would be absolutely no way a post-cat O2 sensor could read A/F. Impossible.

    Maybe we are mis-understanding one another.

    Your GTO has (4) 02 sensors on it from the factory; (2) pre-cat (fronts, upstream) and (2) post-cat (rear, downstream).

    The (2) prior to the cats are what control A/F. The (2) after the cats do nothing more than tell you if your cats are working.

    It sounds like what you did when you got your headers installed was remove the front 02 sensors in their stock location and relocated them further downstream. They are still working as front 02 sensors if they are located off of the headers.

    You are saying you don't have fronts, which from what I am reading, is incorrect. You do have fronts. You don't have rears. Rear 02 sensors would be located after the cats. Your 02 sensors are up by the headers.

  4. #24
    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    As a FYI - here is a picture of where your 02 sensors are located from the factory.

    http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/attachm...1&d=1203695104

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    Veteran 0rion's Avatar
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    35th is right....the fronts control the fueling. The rears check the efficiency of the cats. It's the same on all LSx vehicles....all GM vehicles for that matter. I believe you're either mistaken about what sensors were cut or your tuner put the car in open loop which would really make me worry about your tuner. The most likely case is that you're mistaken about which sensors were cut. Cut the fronts and leave the car in closed loop and it'll run like complete ass.

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    Member Thewilldog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 04yellowjacket View Post
    just replace all four 02's, it sounds like you still have all four.
    I ordered four new ones and the socket yesterday, should be here next week. I'll update the post if everything evens out afterwards

  7. #27
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    well i can garrantee my tuner is no hack tuner! period. this shop has been building 7 and 8 sec car's for over 10 yrs. all i know is that i watched them cut the front 02's. never cut the back two. i guess i assumed they used the back two. but i am no dummy when it comes to cars. i was working on cars helping my dad when i was 5 yrs old. a diagram i definately do not need! i am 53 now. had a shop me and my son done engine swaps in anything. mostly building hondas. swapping in late model jdm engines from japan into cars that they were never supposed to go in. lots of fab work, wiring and tuning work, and for close to 10 yrs doing that. isn't anything like fabbing up engine mount brackets welding them in and seeing the out come of a stock 300 hp engine in a 1900 pnd car, and done the same to v8's as well. i have been working on car's in general for longer than most on here have been alive.
    Now i had my car done because of where and how long i am gone from home. or me and my son would have done it. i do know the difference in the 02's and what they do. i am going to call the shop and ask them what they did just to make sure.

  8. #28
    None Shall Pass Knight's Avatar
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    I would. I'm sure there is some confusion somewhere. Maybe they tied the rear O2 harnesses up in front of the fronts to get them out of the way or something.

    All the Tech Team members and Mods here really know these cars in and out. As do many of the members. Not that we don't make mistakes. But we usually confirm with one another if there's any doubt.

  9. #29
    Veteran 0rion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 04yellowjacket View Post
    well i can garrantee my tuner is no hack tuner! period. this shop has been building 7 and 8 sec car's for over 10 yrs. all i know is that i watched them cut the front 02's. never cut the back two. i guess i assumed they used the back two. but i am no dummy when it comes to cars. i was working on cars helping my dad when i was 5 yrs old. a diagram i definately do not need! i am 53 now. had a shop me and my son done engine swaps in anything. mostly building hondas. swapping in late model jdm engines from japan into cars that they were never supposed to go in. lots of fab work, wiring and tuning work, and for close to 10 yrs doing that. isn't anything like fabbing up engine mount brackets welding them in and seeing the out come of a stock 300 hp engine in a 1900 pnd car, and done the same to v8's as well. i have been working on car's in general for longer than most on here have been alive.
    Now i had my car done because of where and how long i am gone from home. or me and my son would have done it. i do know the difference in the 02's and what they do. i am going to call the shop and ask them what they did just to make sure.
    regardless of all that.....there's no way your rear sensors are being used for fueling. It's impossible.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0rion View Post
    regardless of all that.....there's no way your rear sensors are being used for fueling. It's impossible.
    Until he hears that from the tuning shop, I don't think he'll agree.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by az gt eater View Post
    Sounds like your front O2's got messed up. Bad. There could be actual damage to them, the wiring could be melted, or possibly unplugged. The random misfire code tells the real story. Besides it sounds like the cats arent working either. That could be because they can't keep up with all the fuel the car is dumping into the cylinders to keep it safe.Rich is better than lean. Backfires are better than detonation. And that chugging you are experiencing is mini backfires.
    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    Correction. The front O2 sensors are what control engine parameters such as fuel delivery. The rear ones have no effect on engine performance. The rear O2's only monitor catalytic efficiency.
    Quote Originally Posted by 0rion View Post
    the codes you show there ( 1153 is a switching code by they way) are your drivers side front and both rears. I would replace both fronts with 13111 sensors and call it a day at that many miles. I wouldn't bother with the rears.....I would send the pcm to frost to get a tune and have those rear codes turned off.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    As far as I know, GM has never used the post cat sensors to control a/f on any vehicles. Unless your harnesses were swapped and you didn't know it, you are incorrect. There is no way the rear O2s would be used for control of the a/f.
    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    Sorry, but I am not wrong. There would be absolutely no way a post-cat O2 sensor could read A/F. Impossible.

    Maybe we are mis-understanding one another.

    Your GTO has (4) 02 sensors on it from the factory; (2) pre-cat (fronts, upstream) and (2) post-cat (rear, downstream).

    The (2) prior to the cats are what control A/F. The (2) after the cats do nothing more than tell you if your cats are working.

    It sounds like what you did when you got your headers installed was remove the front 02 sensors in their stock location and relocated them further downstream. They are still working as front 02 sensors if they are located off of the headers.

    You are saying you don't have fronts, which from what I am reading, is incorrect. You do have fronts. You don't have rears. Rear 02 sensors would be located after the cats. Your 02 sensors are up by the headers.
    Quote Originally Posted by 0rion View Post
    35th is right....the fronts control the fueling. The rears check the efficiency of the cats. It's the same on all LSx vehicles....all GM vehicles for that matter. I believe you're either mistaken about what sensors were cut or your tuner put the car in open loop which would really make me worry about your tuner. The most likely case is that you're mistaken about which sensors were cut. Cut the fronts and leave the car in closed loop and it'll run like complete ass.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    I would. I'm sure there is some confusion somewhere. Maybe they tied the rear O2 harnesses up in front of the fronts to get them out of the way or something.

    All the Tech Team members and Mods here really know these cars in and out. As do many of the members. Not that we don't make mistakes. But we usually confirm with one another if there's any doubt.
    Quote Originally Posted by 0rion View Post
    regardless of all that.....there's no way your rear sensors are being used for fueling. It's impossible.
    All of this is true, and we are all singing the same tune. It is because we have all done these modifications to our own cars, and helped others do the same, both via the internet, and in person helping turn wrenches. We are just trying to help a fellow member.

  12. #32
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    i am not disagreeing. i have already said that i must have seen them rewire the fronts to makem fit the headers. to me i thought they used the back ones. it sure looked like it.

  13. #33
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    If you are saying that he used the rear sensors themselves, he could have just moved them upstream. It is also possible he changed everything over to a SD(speed density) tune, but I would think he would discuss this with you first. Climb under the car, and get a couple of pics. Post them up. Then, we know what you are dealing with. All LT headers come with sockets for the O2's. You just need to a) lengthen the wiring for the front O2's(which is a bad idea, and never turns out right), or b) install the longer wired O2's ( Bosch 13111's).

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    Quote Originally Posted by 04yellowjacket View Post
    i am not disagreeing. i have already said that i must have seen them rewire the fronts to makem fit the headers. to me i thought they used the back ones. it sure looked like it.
    do you run a wideband? Perhaps he used the wideband O2 for your narrowband? Just a guess. Also....some people will splice in the supplied extension wires to extend the stock harness on the fronts. The headers locate the O2's further down stream so you either need to run bosch 13111 sensors which have a longer harness, buy premade extensions, or use wire to extend the stock harness. The order I put those is the order of preference really. Splicing those O2 wires can lead to headaches but typically if someone knows what they're doing it's not that big a deal really. The bosch sensors are the way to go.....the harness on those is long enough not to need an extension and it's a better sensor for headers since heater and switching codes will sometimes come with a header install.

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    nope. i know what a wide band is and how they work. also the speed density tune. i still run my stock maf. and i still run my 02's. which are still the stock ones. like i said, i understand that they used the front two 02's. my engine has been cammed for 49000 miles. and no problems. not even a retune in that length of time.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by 04yellowjacket View Post
    nope. i know what a wide band is and how they work. also the speed density tune. i still run my stock maf. and i still run my 02's. which are still the stock ones. like i said, i understand that they used the front two 02's. my engine has been cammed for 49000 miles. and no problems. not even a retune in that length of time.
    what cam are you running?

  17. #37
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    tsp/ 228/234@50/598/605/112lsa, 399.48rwhp and 389.52rwtq. no drivability problems even in 6th at 1100 rpm down the hwy. my shop has been building custom built work for 10yr's or longer. yes i have had the tune rechecked, but no adjustments were made. each time we have rechecked it we go out for a little drive. they use hptuners, and are good at what they do. all rechecks are free, all hookups are free, and they have a dyno day on every wednesday for 40 dollars where a person can get several pulls to get there tune right. i am sure they did it right, if not my car would not have been running flawless for the past 50,000 miles it has been modded. current mods are, engine wise, cam package, pacesetter longtubes, custom 3 1/2" single exhaust, 160* t/s, everything else is stock. intake, heads and bottom end. stock crank pulley too. it took them 21 consecetive pulls, close to 4 hrs on the dyno, a full tank of gas, and my tires were half tread when started and were bald when it was finished. dyno bar chewed them up bad. but that is the kind of service you get from a shop that is good enough to stand behind there work.
    They even told me i should be good for years. i asked for 400rwhp, and i got 399. So yes, i am sure the 02's are hooked up right. they told me to bring it back in and they would do a speed density tune on it and i could gain some good hp that way also. but until my maf quits or i have a problem i will not go that way. right now i like the mileage of 24 to 27 on the hwy as it is.

  18. #38
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    And thanks for all of the advise on this. sorry i was looking at the 02 wiring wrong. i did not mean to step on anyone's toes here either. I am happy to be here and get to experience the knowledge on here. thank you guy's for all your help.

  19. #39
    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    No need to be sorry about anything. We are all here to help one another and have fun while doing so. Personally, I like to bust people's chops on occassion too. I think most do. It's all in fun. You didn't say anything out of line.
    It's on jackstands.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by 04yellowjacket View Post
    just replace all four 02's, it sounds like you still have all four.
    Working to replace these today.

    11:00am Update - I crawled under the front and I can see the two post-cat sensors pretty well, though the wire harness looks likes is going to be hard to plug/unplug. Also see the sensor on the driver's side manifold, but I can't find the passenger side sensor. Where is it buried? Am I going to have to remove something to get to it?

    12:00pm More Updates - Found all four once I get all the way under the car. What's the trick to unharnessing the plugs? There appears to be a think blue plastic tab that slides into a plastic retaining clip on the wire plug. Do I force that thing out w/ a screw driver? Wondering if I'd then ruin it.

    1:00pm The Saga continues - Screw the plastic retaining tab, no way I can thread it back in. Was able to replace passenger side pre-CAT sensor pretty quickly. Working on driver side. Barely any room to get my hands on it. Finally got it unplugged and unscrewed, but I don't see how I'll be able to screw the new one in. There's just no room to work. Going to skip to the post-CAT sensors first.

    1:30pm Almost there - Got both Pre-CAT sensors changed. Was able to change hands and screw the driver side in blind, lucky. Changed the passenger side post-CAT with very little issue. HOWEVER, the driver side post-CAT wire harness is about 5 inches above a rectangular pan and there's only room enough to get my finger tips to it. I'm not sure how I'm going to get to this one.



    Ideas?
    Last edited by Thewilldog; 12-16-2012 at 01:46 PM.

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