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LT headers gains DYNO INSIDE

This is a discussion on LT headers gains DYNO INSIDE within the External Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; BEFORE: JUST A LID AFTER: PACESETTERS LT + Y-PIPE + PORTED THROTTLE BODY 23 WHP and 18 WTQ increase 2002 ...

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    Junior Member asthmamax11's Avatar
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    LT headers gains DYNO INSIDE

    BEFORE: JUST A LID


    AFTER: PACESETTERS LT + Y-PIPE + PORTED THROTTLE BODY


    23 WHP and 18 WTQ increase
    2002 Trans Am 6-speed

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    Senior Member ss~zoso~ss's Avatar
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    nice, do you have a tune on your computer?

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    Awesome power gains!


    Quote Originally Posted by ss~zoso~ss View Post
    nice, do you have a tune on your computer?
    +1

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    Junior Member asthmamax11's Avatar
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    No tune. I think I am gonna wait till I get a Cam to get it tuned.

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    2-Legit-2-Quit bgable's Avatar
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    if you don't have a tune then your leaving some power on the table, id imagine your AFR is pretty messed up you'd prolly see a pretty good pick up in ponies from a tune
    2006 IBM GTO A4
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    2000 TA WS6 NBM A4 Full Bolt-Ons-Gone

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    Senior Member ss~zoso~ss's Avatar
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    above is true, and i was wondering also because i have the same mods plus a few other things and i always wonder what i'd put down

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    Junior Member asthmamax11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bgable View Post
    if you don't have a tune then your leaving some power on the table, id imagine your AFR is pretty messed up you'd prolly see a pretty good pick up in ponies from a tune
    I would like to see one person that got decent gains from tuning a bolt-on F-body. Before AND After dynos from the same Dyno. SAE corrected.

    If anyone can post a link that would be great! I searched and couldn't find much.

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    member since may 2000 nhraformula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asthmamax11 View Post
    I would like to see one person that got decent gains from tuning a bolt-on F-body. Before AND After dynos from the same Dyno. SAE corrected.

    If anyone can post a link that would be great! I searched and couldn't find much.
    I dont have a copy or link, but when speed inc did just headers and off road y pipe with a tune, i gained 31 rwhp.
    2000 nhra edition formula
    a few bolt ons, 379 rwhp
    11.96 @113.25

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    Quote Originally Posted by asthmamax11 View Post
    I would like to see one person that got decent gains from tuning a bolt-on F-body. Before AND After dynos from the same Dyno. SAE corrected.

    If anyone can post a link that would be great! I searched and couldn't find much.
    it sounds like you are questioning the ability to get horse from a tune on a bolt on f-body. . .if that's the case you are severely misinformed. a stock ls1 f-body has loads of power to unleash even w/o mods, and NEEDS a tune to maximize power when you start changin' flow. . . .sure you gained 20+ wheel w/ your LT's but your AFR is outta wack. . . . . .don't need dyno's to prove this, it's pure fact.

    if you weren't questioning ability to pick up power from tune and just wanna see some dyno's then. . . .sorry.

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    Senior Member karpetcm's Avatar
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    I cant speak for mail order tune or hand held tuners but on the dyno on a stock LT1 or LS1 ive seen dyno gains and some have suprised me with just a lid car or a lid and exhuast cut out. Your A/F is set at factory specs with what your car came with from the factory meaning exhuast manifolds, intake and so on. Swapping to Lt headers your A/F will be off and you will more then likely gain power getting a tune for headers then you would if you were bone stock but even bone stock you will see rwhp gains.

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    Member side2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karpetcm View Post
    I cant speak for mail order tune or hand held tuners but on the dyno on a stock LT1 or LS1 ive seen dyno gains and some have suprised me with just a lid car or a lid and exhuast cut out. Your A/F is set at factory specs with what your car came with from the factory meaning exhuast manifolds, intake and so on. Swapping to Lt headers your A/F will be off and you will more then likely gain power getting a tune for headers then you would if you were bone stock but even bone stock you will see rwhp gains.
    Substantial on paper AND seat of pants. and i too am speaking 'bout proper tunes.

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    Member WS6ICK2K's Avatar
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    IMO I would just use the $125 mail order tune from Frost until I got the cam.

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    Senior Member ss~zoso~ss's Avatar
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    ^^^^^ Thats what I did, we'll see how it worked out, in about 5 months

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by side2000 View Post
    it sounds like you are questioning the ability to get horse from a tune on a bolt on f-body. . .if that's the case you are severely misinformed. a stock ls1 f-body has loads of power to unleash even w/o mods, and NEEDS a tune to maximize power when you start changin' flow. . . .sure you gained 20+ wheel w/ your LT's but your AFR is outta wack. . . . . .don't need dyno's to prove this, it's pure fact.

    if you weren't questioning ability to pick up power from tune and just wanna see some dyno's then. . . .sorry.
    Exactly right. I picked up 3 tenths and 2 mph with just a basic tune I did myself ,,,on a bone stocker.

    Although I don't see a wideband readout on the dyno posted,,,so it's hard to say how far off it is. But I quite frankly wouldn't start doing bolt ons on any of my own cars until I had the capability to tune first.

    With the gains you made on those sheets I would be willing to guess that the car was pig rich from the get go, and the headers probably leaned it out a bit. Which would make sense since the stock tunes in these cars favor the rich side from what I've seen on both of mine.

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    Junior Member asthmamax11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by side2000 View Post
    it sounds like you are questioning the ability to get horse from a tune on a bolt on f-body. . .if that's the case you are severely misinformed. a stock ls1 f-body has loads of power to unleash even w/o mods, and NEEDS a tune to maximize power when you start changin' flow. . . .sure you gained 20+ wheel w/ your LT's but your AFR is outta wack. . . . . .don't need dyno's to prove this, it's pure fact.

    if you weren't questioning ability to pick up power from tune and just wanna see some dyno's then. . . .sorry.
    I'm sure there are some gains to be made with tuning a bolt on car and I'm sure my AFR is off.... BUT is it really worth it to tune it before I get a Cam?
    I would rather shave .5 off of my ET with 5 whp gain than gain 50 whp and shave off .1.


    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Exactly right. I picked up 3 tenths and 2 mph with just a basic tune I did myself ,,,on a bone stocker.

    Although I don't see a wideband readout on the dyno posted,,,so it's hard to say how far off it is. But I quite frankly wouldn't start doing bolt ons on any of my own cars until I had the capability to tune first.

    With the gains you made on those sheets I would be willing to guess that the car was pig rich from the get go, and the headers probably leaned it out a bit. Which would make sense since the stock tunes in these cars favor the rich side from what I've seen on both of mine.
    Good infomation.
    Same track? What time of year was each run made in?
    I would love to see those two slips posted for 60 ft comparisons, etc.
    Thanks for posting too. I'm trying to get as much solid info as possible.

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    TunedbyFrost.com Tuner Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    .....
    With the gains you made on those sheets I would be willing to guess that the car was pig rich from the get go, and the headers probably leaned it out a bit. Which would make sense since the stock tunes in these cars favor the rich side from what I've seen on both of mine.

    You know, I always thought that logic dictated the cars should lean out a tad when going from stock to adding a lid, headers, ORY, and catback, but in actuality they get even fatter. The thing is, with the stock MAF (think of it's curve), they err rich up top, and the more air you put in, the further up on the scale you land. Since the error also grows with the curve, and the error is positive, you end up more rich.

    To the poster asking about gains... Boltons cars pick up about 12-23 on average. I know it's a wide spread, but that's the typical range. For extremes, I have had one 05 GTO with headers and exhaust that only gained 2rwhp, and it started in the mid 11s AFR range! It just didn't care what the AFR or timing was, it made the same. On the other hand, I tuned a bone stock 02 M6 (that had knocked since new and had been to the dealership a half dozen times and two other shops that could never fix it) that was a beast and picked up an amazing 41rwhp. That was the highest dyno'ing stock car I have ever seen and it did it by a long shot coming in at 339rwhp. The OEM calibration was just a horrible fit for that car. Some cars are sensitive to that last 0.2 AFR correction, and some gain only a couple going from mid 11s all the way to 13. The factory's WOT curve makes it look like they *thought* that peak torque would occur between 3600 and 5200, but that they had no idea where... New WOT timing is worth a good bit. If I had to give a narrow average for boltons cars, I'd say it'd be about 17-18rwhp.

    Had a few drinks, sorry if this is not overly coherent. Need an emoticon that is taking a drink...

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    Senior Member ss~zoso~ss's Avatar
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    hope ya werent drinkin when ya tuned my PCM ! lol jk, i cant wait to try it out

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    You know, I always thought that logic dictated the cars should lean out a tad when going from stock to adding a lid, headers, ORY, and catback, but in actuality they get even fatter. The thing is, with the stock MAF (think of it's curve), they err rich up top, and the more air you put in, the further up on the scale you land. Since the error also grows with the curve, and the error is positive, you end up more rich.
    Hmm, well there ya go. The wonderful world of computer controlled cars. That's interesting to know. I play primarily with carbed stuff which follows along the lines of what I was saying, but who would have thought.
    That would explain why I had my 02 so fat back when you straightened that out for me.
    Last edited by Firebirdjones; 12-13-2008 at 05:01 PM.

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by asthmamax11 View Post
    I'm sure there are some gains to be made with tuning a bolt on car and I'm sure my AFR is off.... BUT is it really worth it to tune it before I get a Cam?
    I would rather shave .5 off of my ET with 5 whp gain than gain 50 whp and shave off .1.




    Good infomation.
    Same track? What time of year was each run made in?
    I would love to see those two slips posted for 60 ft comparisons, etc.
    Thanks for posting too. I'm trying to get as much solid info as possible.
    I made a ton of trips throughout the summer with the car trying various things, including tunes, bolt ons etc...all at the same track. DA was recorded every time at the track to keep things real. I'll have to dig out the logs. I can tell you the car would 60 foot consistent with very little variance at all. I made 2-3 passes before each change to be sure it was as good as I could get. The ET would only vary .02-.03 it was consistent as hell.

    As far as the tune goes,,,I base lined the car when stock. I then spent a while with HPtuner trying to learn the ropes, tinkering around with it. Logging showed my fuel trims were completely out of whack,,,with the right bank completely in the red zone and not moving. Dialing in the VE tables fixed that. I played with a few other things and the car responded well.
    Comparing tunes at the track was easy after that,,,I could do it all in the same test session,,,simply flash in the stock tune and re-baseline the car,,,then flash in the custom tune I had worked on,,,,and it was worth a solid 3 tenths and 2 mph. And that was with the car running pig rich that I later found out thanks to Frost. He straightened me out on that end and it became a completely different car,,,especially up top in the rpm range. I wouldn't have been surprised to see another 1-2 mph out of it but I haven't had the chance to try it yet. Going back first of the year after the holiday madness is over.

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    Junior Member asthmamax11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    I made a ton of trips throughout the summer with the car trying various things, including tunes, bolt ons etc...all at the same track. DA was recorded every time at the track to keep things real. I'll have to dig out the logs. I can tell you the car would 60 foot consistent with very little variance at all. I made 2-3 passes before each change to be sure it was as good as I could get. The ET would only vary .02-.03 it was consistent as hell.

    As far as the tune goes,,,I base lined the car when stock. I then spent a while with HPtuner trying to learn the ropes, tinkering around with it. Logging showed my fuel trims were completely out of whack,,,with the right bank completely in the red zone and not moving. Dialing in the VE tables fixed that. I played with a few other things and the car responded well.
    Comparing tunes at the track was easy after that,,,I could do it all in the same test session,,,simply flash in the stock tune and re-baseline the car,,,then flash in the custom tune I had worked on,,,,and it was worth a solid 3 tenths and 2 mph. And that was with the car running pig rich that I later found out thanks to Frost. He straightened me out on that end and it became a completely different car,,,especially up top in the rpm range. I wouldn't have been surprised to see another 1-2 mph out of it but I haven't had the chance to try it yet. Going back first of the year after the holiday madness is over.

    Awesome. This thread is turning into something useful now that you and Frost have responded with ACTUAL #'s...not presumptions based on BULLSHIT.

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