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Hydrogen Fuel Injection

This is a discussion on Hydrogen Fuel Injection within the External Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; yep...i posted a clip from a local news station on the hydro4000 a week or so ago...some gizmo that claims ...

  1. #21
    Junior Member wildbanshee's Avatar
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    yep...i posted a clip from a local news station on the hydro4000 a week or so ago...some gizmo that claims to increase mpg by 60%....for ONLY 1200$. I think its the same deal but with some guages and a prettier package. you ever notice stuff like this is never sold in stores but always with some dude that needs to come to your house and give you a demo with the line...if you get three friends to sell it....

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    Approver of Threads SpecterGT260's Avatar
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    im about 2 labs courses away from a BS in chemistry if that means anything in the way of credentials. on the surface it sounds like this is a myth spawned out of ignorance about fuel cells, which use hydrogen to produce power forming water, not the other way around. looking at the reduction potentials: http://www.csudh.edu/oliver/chemdata/data-e.htm

    hydrogen will NOT oxidize iron. rust, or iron oxide is an oxidized form of iron (not because it has oxygen, oxidized as in lost electrons) in fact, hydrogen gas will help to reduce any oxidized iron in the system. Aluminum will also get reduced. If you are truely injecting hydrogen gas then THIS isnt what is causing the rust.

    combustions is just another name for an energetic reaction with oxygen. so when you "burn" hydrogen, you are reacting it with oxygen and forming water. this means you are stealing oxygen from the chamber IF this system works as designed (which i doubt, separation of oxygen and hydrogen is very endergonic). this will result in a rich condition..... you will lose power and fuel economy if it works as intended..... luckily i highly doubt they are injecting much H2 at all.

    im going to set this one right up on the shelf next to the turbonator.......

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    BUSTED!!! As they say on Myth Busters. I used to work for gas companies(medical and welding gases NOT crude oil) that sold Hydrogen and there was a super car that ran on H2. It just had an ICE modified to run on Hydrogen. 500 HP! One company I worked for ran a fleet of vehicles on PNG and natural gas like you use in a gas stove. They could fill it up at work or home and go! It was called Naturaline. They did this back in the 70s gas crunch. Soon after the price of gas fell and no one was interested. Here we are again. They were way ahead of their time!

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    Approver of Threads SpecterGT260's Avatar
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    by "busted" are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?



    natural gas is not hydrogen. Hydrogen CAN be used as a fuel source, but as a combustable its incredibly dangerous. also, H2 is, obviously, a gas and is incredibly difficult to store reasonably. a couple "gallons" of it will fill a 55 gallon drum even under pressure. my last professor actually worked for a number of years for honda on their hydrogen fuel cel progect. those cars typically store hydrogen by other means, IE protic liquids.

    also, i need to ammend what I said a little bit. H2 burns very energetically.... but its a very hot and explosive burn. not as slow and controlled as gasoline. you lose alot of energy to sound and heat. actually combusting H2 in a motor would probably simulate a lean condition even though you arent burning as much fuel. = detonation. although, unless u tune, you will still be pumping just as much fuel per cycle.

    a little more though, you are starting with water, separating it, and then recombining it. no circular process can EVAR be 100% efficient. therefore you are wasting power with this system no matter how you cut it.

    propane vehicles have, as u said, been around for ever. my stepdad used to drive a kerosine truck too
    people do goofy things from time to time, and ur H2 supercar may be one of them. although you are more likely to run it like a diesel than a gasoline engine based on the way hydrogen burns.

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    The H2 car was just a publicity stunt to gain attention for use of gases. But the car did work. Dangerous, yup. Huge tanks on both sides to store fuel...but it was kewl! Sometimes you need to think outside the box. For every success there are many, many failures. I'm glad people try this stuff.

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    Approver of Threads SpecterGT260's Avatar
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    so..... u were agreeing then?

    ya, definitly possible, but i bet a single pass had the wear of a top fuel car . in the instance were talking here though i cannot find a single possible reason for this to actually work. again, i think its a distortion of the hydrogen fuel cell thats been embraced by the unknowing populace

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    Well, the gist of it within the hydrogen comments. Look around and you will see a number of people already running HHO generators in vehicles. Truckers have been using it for a few years already and they see 10-15 percent gains. Wikipedia has a link.

    The idea,

    Atkins cycle engines are burning gasoline as lean as they can get away with. However, fuel doesn't burn very well when running very lean. Thus cars like to run a little richer for power. On top of this, if you go too lean you start producing too much NOX and officially become a gross polluter in the eyes of CARB. What the HHO does, is reduce the NOX and increase your power output so that you don't lose any power in the process of creating power.

    The ghetto rigg method of this is to put a POT on your 02 sensor and intake temp sensors. You increase the heat on your intake temp to reduce the timing. You bump up the 02 sensor into thinking that the system is running lean. This lets you run lean without any loss of power when running HHO. It's going to require some tuning like many things. But once you get it right, its not uncommon to see your fuel mileage increase by 20-30 percent.

    Also, you really don't need to buy an instruction manual of any sort to make this when you can easily look around and find video instructions on Youtube.com and make it yourself. Just look around, its not difficult to make. You'd be harder pressed to install new bushings all over the car than making one of these systems until you get into the sensors.

    As for hydrogen storage being difficult. It is in a lot of ways, yet its much safer than Gasoline in other ways. Even mythbusters did a hindenberg test and they found that they couldn't make it ignite unless the skin of the ballon was flammable in itself.

    In an accident, hydrogen will dissipate very quickly from the scene going straight up. Gasoline, will ignite and stick to the ground.

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    Approver of Threads SpecterGT260's Avatar
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    i dont agree with most of what u said there. sounds like fallacitical logic. mythbusters and wiki are not the end all authorities on how things work. neither gasoline nor hydrogen will combust without oxygen, and gasoline liquid is not flamable at all. only the vapor is flamable. the storage is more an issue of space. 1 gallon of water does not produce a whole lot of h2 gas.

    the issue of running lean is not the ammount of NOx that is produced. nitrogenous polutants are produce with every gram of gasoline burned. by that logic, the richer the more nox (hence the black smoke u see on rich cars). The catalytic converter, however, works at a specific temp range (around 500 usually). A lean condition will result in inefficient catalytic activity, but so will a rich condition. the lean will cause temps to rise, and the rich will cause them to fall. This is why LS1s (and im sure many other motors) have a COT (cat over temp) setting to run extra fuel when the cat is getting too hot. the REAL issue with running lean is the high temps in the chamber and the threat of knocking.

    as far as youtube....

    @ 1:32 they clearly, even tho it is HHO fuel, have 1 hydrogen and 2 oxygens in their schematic.... these people did their homework.....
    the buildup is also ridiculous. ive done the hydrogen-oxygen separation in labs several times.... you can do it at surprisingly low voltanges...



    this guy.... all he is doing is adding water to his chamber (remember, hydrogen + oxygen + flame/spark = water) his gain is also unconfirmed, he is complaining about things that are intrinsic to his design, and his description of the video is so ridiculous it made my head hurt. you cannot simply add or subtract carbons and oxygens from sugars. "i discovered sugar has everythign we need for gasoline"..... yeah... so does ur fat head... its not a simple problem, if it was one of the thousands of chemists working on this would have figured it out, why? because they are working on this VERY problem. some Dbag in a saturn isnt going to fix it.

    this guy


    bases his whole argument on the fact that a revved motor will increase its vacuum.....

    once again, you are taking water, converting it to its elements, and then converting it back into water. we cannot do this with 100% efficiency. this is complete crap

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecterGT260 View Post
    ...and gasoline liquid is not flammable at all.
    Care to test that? I'll give you the match and watch from a distance.



    Do YOU have any suggestions for alternative fuels for us laymen?

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    lol, actually yes, if you wait for the vapor to settle, liquid gasoline will put out a match. im sorry... i thought it was common knowledge.....


    and yes, the hydrogen fuel cell will be a great alternative fuel source. the mechanism of the above method doesnt work at all. but hydrogen fuel cells do.

    and im still confused.... uve been disagreeing with me this whole time? i couldnt figure it out based on ur responses

  11. #31
    Approver of Threads SpecterGT260's Avatar
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    this is the best answer i could find (found it while searching for a video.... which i came up empty handed)

    "Fumes", for the purposes of this answer, are gasoline vapors in an oxygen-rich environment (e.g., air).

    Liquid gasoline by itself will usually "drown" a lit match. You need oxygen to sustain a fire, so if there aren't any fumes, the flame will die as the match becomes submerged, and loses its oxygen supply.

    If there are gasoline fumes present, however, you'll lose a bit more than your eyebrows when the fireball comes.

    Note that this is how we get cars to run -- by injecting a fine, vapor-like spray of gasoline into an air-filled cylinder.
    anything we think of combusting NEEDS oxygen to do so. or some other reactive media. oxygen just happens to react very exothermically with a wide range of things in the presence of an energy source (spark). if you are familiar with phase diagrams (think HS chem) there is a very large activation energy, but once achived the reaction is extremely favorable.


    along the tune of the last line of that quote:
    its the reason they are always looking for better ways to mix fuel and air. carbs did a sucky job for the most part. they could partially vaporize fuel, but relied on the turmoil of the cylender to finish the job... which it didnt do. FI cars use high pressure spray to get the job done and do it much better thus diminishing the surface area of gasoline in respect to the oxygen present. remember, gas and oxygen must meet and be ignited for the reaction to happen. in liquid gasoline, the air/liquid interface is an almost infinitly smaller reaction area as compared to a vapor/vapor mix reaction. the liquid surface should technically feed a fire.... but not to much more of an extent than the wood its burning on.

    gasoline is also a very volatile liquid, which many people take to mean explosive.... but no, it just means it has a high vapor pressure, gasoline sitting in a high walled container with no ventillation will build up fumes and will ignite in the presence of fire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecterGT260 View Post
    lol, actually yes, if you wait for the vapor to settle, liquid gasoline will put out a match. im sorry... i thought it was common knowledge.....
    I know it is, J/K, but a lot of others won't get it. I know you've got brains, and know a lot more than I do about this stuff. But, do you have any ideas or thoughts on solutions to any H2 related theory? What are your thoughts on fuel cells? Bio-diesel, that works. It seems to me, if we had scientists on the Manhattan Project that could get a chain reaction out of atoms, we could certainly use H2 (or maybe something else) to increase fuel economy. Ever heard of the Pogue Carburetor? Nikola Tesla? Seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecterGT260 View Post

    and im still confused.... uve been disagreeing with me this whole time? i couldnt figure it out based on ur responses
    I am not disagreeing, not everything, a passionate conversation for the sake of alternative fuels. Helps me and others understand. I appreciate your thoughts and info.
    Last edited by TedsB4Csled; 05-21-2008 at 10:08 PM. Reason: more

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    lol, its cool. I mentioned fuel cells, but its in an edit so maybe u didnt catch it. we studied those a little this year (but i knew it wasnt on the test so i didnt study it hard.... lol)

    the key issue is efficiency (which they have, but.....) and storage. H2 gas IS very dangerous. just like anything else it NEEDS a "spark" in quotes because the metaphorical spark can be just heat in some cases.... but also many times an actual pre-existing flame, heat source, or energy input of some other time, in order to actually blow.

    theres a few different types of fuel cells, some work at high temps but NONE work by combustion. its just redox initiated by electrical input. basically, the combination of o2 and h2 release alot of energy. they work with just like a battery would, with an anode and cathode. just that the batteries we use are typically lead and sulfuric acid rather than hydrogen and oxygen. wiki says the difference is that here the reactants are consumed... this is true of batteries too....they are just self contained. the end result is nice and cheap electrical current, and a big ass electric motor moves ur car.


    EDIT:
    i think i went on a tangent there a little bit..... my bad.
    the other issue is storage, aside form being dangerous, H2 takes up a LOT of space. i cant remember the different ways they are trying to store it, but its in liquid form, and in a way that is easily attainable QUICKLY (which electrifying water is not a good way to get it FAST nor in large amounts)

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    Also in freezing cold days, I believe the fuel cells need to be heated? Or is it the actual H2? In order for it to function. Did you study PEMs?

    I'm taking an electric car conversion this summer, just for fun. Just love the immediate torque they can put out! Most people don't realize electric cars came before ICEs.

    Also another off the wall piece of info; Exxon, Mobil and the like purchased many patents for carburetors that inventors claimed could get high mileage. When initially they regarded them as frauds. The Pogue carb for instance got 100 mpg(claimed), was then called a fraud, but yet Exxon(purchased) owns the patent? It's all here if you look: http://www.uspto.gov/main/profiles/acadres.htm

    We are a nation getting screwed. You never know who to believe, but those with money have a way of skewing perceptions.

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    i doubt it was real anyways..... those patants cant really be enforced internationally. some french dude would be cruising around right now in it instead of some dorky smart car. also yeah, fuel cells operate at specific temp ranges depending on the type. some of them need to be REAL hot. really, the only reason we looked at them is because the prof worked for honda for several years on their HFC projects. also, i didnt know before that civics were so named for the fuel mixing process used in early honda motors or CVC lol.... but it should be noted that this was an economy process.... not performance process.

    as far as PEM.... dont knwo what u mean without googling it or seeign it spelt out. Im a chemist, not an engineer. I can understand whats going on within alot of what the engineers are doing, but the study of the actual parts themselves not so much. u wanna talk reaction coordinates, enthalpies, entropies, free energy, quantum mechanics, statistical thermodynamics, im game.

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    Wait

    I went out and found this...

    #
    # "Jim Cash" wrote the following on Roadfly.com, "The Nitrogen Oxide emissions come from running a lean burn engine. This is good in that it lowers CO emissions but can cause the NO issue in the higher temperatures of a lean mixture operation. The Cats are there to clean up the NO issue

    and

    At ambient temperatures, the oxygen and nitrogen gases in air will not react with each other. In an internal combustion engine, combustion of a mixture of air and fuel produces combustion temperatures high enough to drive endothermic reactions between atmospheric nitrogen and oxygen in the flame

    The idea I get from hydrogen and oxygen, is that they will increase the combustion of lean burn which should decrease the Nox because there will be less oxygen to react with because you are increasing the efficiency of the burn right?

    You say that hydrogen is very combustible, that combined with the lean issues of most vehicles where knock occurs. Knock is generally caused by more than one explosion occuring in the cylinder or a miss fire right?

    If hydrogen increased the combustibility of Gasoline going into the cyclinder during lean cycle. Wouldn't that increase power and let you go even leaner on the fuel burn??? It would require shortening the spark advance. Which on the ls1 is around 20-30 percent right? Least according to my obd2 scanner.

    I remember, a researcher who was experimenting with natural gas injection. Not to say that everything on discovery is real. But he was able to increase the combustion efficiency of ICE up to 80 percent.

    As for videos, I was commenting that you can learn how to make the basic design and even use the electricity to build your own Generator.

    http://youtube.com/user/ZeroFossilFuel
    You can learn most of that through this guy and thinking about it a little. It's really not rocket science.

    I'm commenting that its not difficult to make your own HHO generator. While the above video may be a rather advanced version. Its gives you an idea of what the basic process is.

    As for the vacuum that the guy was commenting about. Hydrogen like water when it first starts to boil likes to stay in the water like little bubbles. Using the vacuum from the engine would make the water more likely to boil that out. Much like water boiling easier at higher elevations requiring the use of a pressure cooker.

    Most people usually use distilled or filtered water combined with baking soda for use with HHO. Not every method is perfect.

    If you could go 20 percent leaner and only had to expend 40-50 percent of that on electricity generation wouldn't you be ahead?

    Though, I dunno if I'd try it on my ls1. I'm happy that it has always has and still continues to get 24-25mpg with an autotragic no less. All stock and proud of it. 120 thousand miles on it and still doesn't burn oil between the 10k synthetic oil changes.

    But on my daily driver Honda and its mad 1.5L of raw power. I'd consider it just for the challenge and fun of the project that would probably take a weekend and be fun to do. Also, see HHO bombs, cool videos on Youtube.

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    i have the ebooks now, guess what i paid ten bucks for em!!!! lol, but i still havent had the time to figure them out. any smart genuses out there? ill tottaly comply! if you in return share the info. (hope this discussion isnt illegal!, if it is I appologize )

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    My last post has to be approved by moderator or something.

    Anyways, while it works to be approved.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/zerofossilfuel
    http://www.youtube.com/user/madscientist

    Many use Baking soda added to the water.

    I'm not a chemist or an engineer, but I can grasp a theory and converge ideas pretty well. Though, I'm more of a Popperist about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hurraquio View Post
    i have the ebooks now, guess what i paid ten bucks for em!!!! lol, but i still havent had the time to figure them out. any smart genuses out there? ill tottaly comply! if you in return share the info. (hope this discussion isnt illegal!, if it is I appologize )
    PM me I'll bite.

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