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How to run your LS1 on E85

This is a discussion on How to run your LS1 on E85 within the External Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; ...

  1. #61
    Grand Imperial Wizard Sarge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Runn_WS7 View Post
    1. Yes this is a problem. They are not yet using E75 in Sweden but they are talking about it. But it looks like this is the system thats going to be used.
    But since i dont use my car in the winter itīs not a problem for me but i understand that it might be different in USA.
    But the Lambda adjustment doesn'tīt have any problems with compensating for the small different between E85 and E75. You already have pumps with E10 (and there are talking about E20 correct?) and pumps without and the cars are adjusting for the difference without trouble.
    We have a HUGE carpark with cars that have been converted be the owners themself and we are trying to convince the goverment not to use E75 or atleast give us the option to decide for usself which fuel to use.

    Click for full size

    But yes it is a problem. I want my car to have a perfect tune and it isnīt possible if the fuel is changing... But it is only two times a year, And i like to tune... But if you dont have a tuner i understand your problem or if you cant get the fuel you want. Here we have E85 everywhere.

    2. Yes, Water contamination is a problem, I agree.

    It would be really interesting to see a test done on an open and closed fueltank, How long time it takes for the E85 to suck up water from the air to the point to it is dangerous to use. It might come in the future, But up til then keep your fueltanks closed I only damage i have seen from E85 yes is a rubber hose that couldnīt take it on my -82 Datsun Yes it is possible to run it on E85, Hell i even run my lawnmower on E85. I just wish i had a Turbocar to experiment on. Since E85 is perfect for boost, I have many friends here in Sweden with forced induction that use E85... Thanks to the cooling effects and higher octane you can use alot more boost.
    Just look at the Saab 9-5 Turbo with Biopower engine (big seller here in Sweden) that when it is fueled with E85 gives 20% more hp and 16% more torque compared with regular gas.


    Water contaminated fuel from the pump isnīt much you and i can do anything about but hoping the gascompanies have there shit together


    Is E85 more toxic or dangerous than gasoline?
    No. 100% ethanol (not 100% E85) can be and is ingested by human beings. The fuel ethanol must be "denatured" with gasoline or a bitter agent to prevent ingestion. Also, ethanol does not contain the harmful carcinogens and toxins found in gasoline.

    Statement below is taken from the flextek page.
    If I have a gasoline vehicle and convert it to alcohol, am I going to damage the engine?
    No. There are currently over 50,000 vehicles on the road using the FlexTek to burn alcohol fuels. There have been no reports of engine damage due to the conversion. In fact, burning alcohol instead of gasoline has been shown to decrease engine oil contamination and extend engine life. Alcohol burns cooler than gasoline providing additional benefits in terms of engine life and performance.


    BTW i will copy and paste this post in the thread on the other forum which cant be named here, this info was made for that forum from the start but since i post here from time to time i thought i would be i nice fellow and post it here aswell. Ouch Boy was i wrong. I wont post any more here since i dont feel welcome. I have gotten a few "hatemail" since i started this thread aswell, I wont post any names, You know who you are...

    Bye.

    If you have more question feel free to post in the other thread.
    You didn't get no PM's from me...and dont get all butthurt cuz we are having a discussion about E85....Sounds like you agree with the points brought out in this string......you see the difference between the LS1 "tech site" and this one is simple....over there the mods go with the crowd....here we will discuss the technical merits of issues/mods raised like grown ups.....now if your gonna take your marbles and go home because some folks want to discuss both sides of your proposal to tune LS1's for E85 and the pro's and con's associated with E85 then by all means haul ass.....but dont act like it is "our" fault we all didn't just mindlessly jump up and down like 13 year old cheerleaders over your cut and paste post man....your welcome here anytime man.....but be prepared to discuss....and may I suggest next time you post something like this and it is being discussed.....when challenged don't go back and edit your post.....you lose any credibility you may have had....
    Last edited by Sarge; 11-11-2006 at 04:11 AM.

  2. #62
    no hate mail from me either!

  3. #63
    Grand Imperial Wizard Sarge's Avatar
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    Nobody sent him nothing. Just butthurt.

  4. #64
    Senior Member FasstChevys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    Is it E10 or E85?

    I'd bet he's talking about E10...

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    Senior Member FasstChevys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    Is it fair to summarize?
    We all in agreement to tune your car back and forth is bullshit?
    Okay, I'd like to address this. When you discussed tuning back and forth, basically you were talking about carrying a laptop and HP Tuners around and constantly tuning. Okay. I agree, that would suck to carry your laptop everywhere and be tuning all the time, but let's be more realistic and then talk about who actually would do such a thing? How many people travel across the country with their LS1 F-bodys? I'd say we're all in agreeance that most miles put your "toy" type vehicles are within a 250 mile radius of your home. "Most" of the time, the altitude isn't going to change that much, and carrying your laptop for tuning wouldn't be an issue. (I think)

    Now then, let's say you drag race the car at different altitudes at different tracks across the country. In that case, carrying the laptop wouldn't be a burden.

    Maybe I didn't pick up on what your point was on this one......any help?

  6. #66
    Grand Imperial Wizard Sarge's Avatar
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    I exaggerated to make my point.....that being if I understand all this......that one would have to retune to match the % of mix that is being pumped into his tank....In other words....a E75 versus a E85 versus straight gasoline....around here I know of zero stations that even offer Eanything...so If I tune for E85 and travel to a place that has no E85...only 93 octane....I am going to have issues...am I not?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swedish Fella
    But yes it is a problem. I want my car to have a perfect tune and it isnīt possible if the fuel is changing... But it is only two times a year, And i like to tune... But if you dont have a tuner i understand your problem or if you cant get the fuel you want. Here we have E85 everywhere.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    Is it E10 or E85?
    The 10 percent mix.
    Like damn near every station in the US sells.

    I discussed this with YoMommaTA a few weeks back. He told me that even the 10% mix will eat your lines. I said that didn't make sense, all the stations around here sell the mix.
    At least that is how I read it, I could have been drinking.
    Correct me if I am wrong.

  8. #68
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    "It is not as harmful to the nature/environment as gasoline or any other petroleum products for that matter. Ethanol is made out of renewable energy resources such as crops and trees to name a few things. The carbon dioxide that an ethanol powered car emits is not contributing to the greenhouse effect, but is taken up by the plants and is being "re-used". The carbon dioxide then goes around in a closed loop. Gasoline on the other hand is made from oil that comes from old dinosaurs , plants and other stuff 100 000 of years ago, and it doesnīt take part in the closed loop but only adds to the amount of greenhouse gasses."

    In a word, BULLCRAP!!! My professors would turn over in their graves if they ever saw this. Last I knew, CO2 was CO2, 1 atom of carbon and 2 atoms of oxygen, a colorless odorless gas. Whether you get CO2 from E85, gasoline, good CO2 from beer fermentation, whatever, it's all the same stuff. Nature doesn't differentiate! If I'm wrong, I'll burn my degree in Chemical Engineering.

    Also, as Sarge noted, ethanol due to it's natural properties will try to absorb water to dilute itself. It's extremely difficult to get chemically pure, 100% alcohol - the minute you expose it to air, it will absorb any moisture to dilute itself to an azeotropic mixture. The water/alcohol bonds in an azeotropic mixture are extremely strong and hard to break - look it up in your chemistry book. Most fuels on the market are now 10% ethanol - the oil companies haven't loudly announced this fact. They did it because 1) alcohols oxygenate fuels and help them burn more cleanly and 2) it's a cheap way to boost octane, you don't have to refine and distill the petroleum feedstocks as much, i.e. more gallons of gas per barrel of oil. If you hadn't noticed recently from the runup in gas prices, oil companies aren't doing the motoring public any favors by trying to be nice guys - it's all about the dollor and how far they can stretch the barrel of oil. Remember adding drygas (be it methanol or ethanol, both products are sold as drygas) to your gas in the wintertime to prevent fuel line freeze-up? Well, you don't need to do it any more. Alcohols act as a co-solvent with water and oil products - alcohols mix readily with both. The water gets 'diluted' and mixes with the alcohol, which in turn mixes with your gas. This mixure then gets carried into the engine and burned. A 10% mixture of ethanol is far more alcohol than you would ever get when you add a 12 oz. bottle of drygas to the tank. Well, I may be slightly wrong - perhaps I should thank the oil companies for saving me $0.50 per tankful this winter 'cuz I ain't adding drygas no more! 'Nuff said.

  9. #69
    i'm going out to get pics in a few mins,10% efuel for two years with nothing added to help protect the system.

  10. #70
    Grand Imperial Wizard Sarge's Avatar
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    I guess we made the Yahoo news fella's...we be famous.....look at today's yahoo home page...
    http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center-...ob25kYS1wcm9z-

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoMommasTA View Post
    i'm going out to get pics in a few mins,10% efuel for two years with nothing added to help protect the system.
    I really want to see this.

    I don't doubt you, just telling you my experiences.

  12. #72
    UNFORTUNEATLY the fuel rail which was totally trashed got tossed out<forgot about that.I also suck at taking pics and its very dark cloudy day here.Heres a few to look at,the rest didn't turn out because of the poor lighting.I take some more on a nicer day.look closely at the fuel pump.Also if you look close the stainless steel parts are not touched in anyway.

  13. #73
    i want to get some close ups of the lines,the insides are completely trashed.

  14. #74
    Senior Member Too Fast's Avatar
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    My .02 is, why even bother with E85 in the States? Maybe overseas with the big difference in cost, but not here. Marathon gas is $2.30 a gallon for 93 octane here in Indy. Also, you need a lot of modifications to run E85 in our cars. The GM bulletin is right, only up to 15% is ok for the F-bodies. Go with other things to increase HP or gas mileage.

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    It's good government PR, like Bush's other failed policies. In a time of high gas prices and an otherwise failed, non-existant "energy" policy that was written by Cheney with the help of big oil, it makes the government look like they're trying to do something. Need I say more? Ethanol production for fuel use, not human consumption, is currently subsidized by the government. At true market value/cost without subsidies on the ethanol, gas prices would have to increase considerably before an alcohol/gas mix would be economically viable if you look at a real cost per mile comparison.

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    Senior Member FasstChevys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastcar View Post
    It's good government PR, like Bush's other failed policies. In a time of high gas prices and an otherwise failed, non-existant "energy" policy that was written by Cheney with the help of big oil, it makes the government look like they're trying to do something. Need I say more? Ethanol production for fuel use, not human consumption, is currently subsidized by the government. At true market value/cost without subsidies on the ethanol, gas prices would have to increase considerably before an alcohol/gas mix would be economically viable if you look at a real cost per mile comparison.
    Without subsidies? You are kidding right? As if oil isn't subsidized! The subsidies for ethanol are a drop in the bucket in comparison to oil.

  17. #77
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    I would advise all to go to toptiergas.com to see what stations gm recommends with the system they have developed with other manufacturers. It is interesting to see what places are not "TOP TIER" and not approved for gm vehicles. I don't have some of these in MI but at least a couple are. This could help with damaged fuel systems from whatever we are putting in.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastcar View Post
    In a word, BULLCRAP!!! My professors would turn over in their graves if they ever saw this. Last I knew, CO2 was CO2, 1 atom of carbon and 2 atoms of oxygen, a colorless odorless gas. Whether you get CO2 from E85, gasoline, good CO2 from beer fermentation, whatever, it's all the same stuff. Nature doesn't differentiate! If I'm wrong, I'll burn my degree in Chemical Engineering.
    Well burn it....

    if you burn ethanol, you will not contribute to the global warming, and why is that? Why will it not contribute to an increase of co2 in the atmosphere??

    the whole point with ethanol, is to grow it as fast as you consume it.
    Thus leading to, every ethanol gallon u burn, u must produce equal amount of ethanol...
    What does plants do when they grow?? They use, sunlight to turn water and co2(from the air) into "glukos", i dunno what to call it on english..

    So when u burn ethanol, u grow plants absorbing equal amount of co2. thus there is no increase in co2 in the atmosphere.

    The problem with oil is that its been dorment for MANY years.... Your putting dinosaurs into your car...
    This high amount of co2 released by oil will eventually go back inte oil, but hey man, geez.. Were turning back the planets evolution a bit far here..

    The more discussed problem is the production of ethanol compared to oil refinering etc.

    This is a study dated this year, from a group in university of california.
    http://rael.berkeley.edu/EBAMM/summary.html

    it shows that it actually takes less MJ energy to produce 1MJ ethanol, than 1MJ gasolin... Combining that with that ethanol doesnt contribute to global warming but oil does. Who comes out as the winner.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by azguz View Post
    Well burn it....

    if you burn ethanol, you will not contribute to the global warming, and why is that? Why will it not contribute to an increase of co2 in the atmosphere??

    the whole point with ethanol, is to grow it as fast as you consume it.
    Thus leading to, every ethanol gallon u burn, u must produce equal amount of ethanol...
    What does plants do when they grow?? They use, sunlight to turn water and co2(from the air) into "glukos", i dunno what to call it on english..

    So when u burn ethanol, u grow plants absorbing equal amount of co2. thus there is no increase in co2 in the atmosphere.

    The problem with oil is that its been dorment for MANY years.... Your putting dinosaurs into your car...
    This high amount of co2 released by oil will eventually go back inte oil, but hey man, geez.. Were turning back the planets evolution a bit far here..

    The more discussed problem is the production of ethanol compared to oil refinering etc.

    This is a study dated this year, from a group in university of california.
    http://rael.berkeley.edu/EBAMM/summary.html

    it shows that it actually takes less MJ energy to produce 1MJ ethanol, than 1MJ gasolin... Combining that with that ethanol doesnt contribute to global warming but oil does. Who comes out as the winner.

    I wouldn't put any faith in "studies" by left-wing, environmentalist wackos like those at Cal-Berkeley whose "studies" are fabricated to fit their global socialist agenda regardless of the empirical evidence which doesn't support the myth of man-made global warming.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by GatorSS View Post
    empirical evidence which doesn't support the myth of man-made global warming.
    Well, thats bs!

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5314592.stm

    "In the core, the fastest increase seen was of the order of 30 parts per million (ppm) by volume over a period of roughly 1,000 years.
    The last 30 ppm of increase has occurred in just 17 years."

    "Ice cores reveal the Earth's natural climate rhythm over the last 800,000 years. When carbon dioxide changed there was always an accompanying climate change."

    http://svt.se/svt/jsp/Crosslink.jsp?d=56362&a=663219
    Its in Swedish, but Iīll translate the interresting part.

    "During a period of 420 000 years, the concentration of carbon dioxide has never been over 280ppm and the concentration of metangas has not been over 750 ppm.
    Year 2004 the concentration of carbon dioxide had reached 370ppm and concentration of metangas has reached 1700ppm."

    "The changes in temperature and the amount of gases in the atmosphere has a clear connection, the curves(graphs) follow each other."

    If carbon dioxide has a faktor 1 on global warming, metan has about 20..

    The claim that man-made global warming is a myth, Is utterly bullshit!

    Etanol Isnt 100% "global warming free", but to claim that Itīs as dirty as oil Is bullshit!
    Etanol: produktion contributes, consuming it doesnīt.
    Gasoline: Produktion and consuming it, both contributes.

    Personally I think hydrogen made by molecular complexes, driven by sunlight is more of the future, but that technology is far away in the future, and we have no time to wait.

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