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How to run your LS1 on E85

This is a discussion on How to run your LS1 on E85 within the External Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Originally Posted by FasstChevys This is a bullshit statement all by it's self Sarge. You won't hear one person in ...

  1. #21
    Grand Imperial Wizard Sarge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FasstChevys View Post
    This is a bullshit statement all by it's self Sarge. You won't hear one person in the ethanol industry that knows anything say that ethanol is the entire answer to our energy issues. It's going to take many other avenues to get closer, and it won't happen overnight. To say it's a scam is a crock of shit, and I don't agree, period.

    You said above that ethanol gets 30% less fuel mileage. Your statement above suggests 50% less fuel mileage? Which is it?
    'LOL...not my statement and I see I did not provide the link to the "source"...my bad........and on a side note....that is why I left all the links in the reference statement active for further documentation and to show it was not my statement but a quote from another document........with that said....I posted those statements simply for the economics of ethanol....and in rebuttal to the thread starters statement of "Why is ethanol a better fuel"....which I think is bullshit and should be dismissed as you yourself point out...nobody in the industry (which you are in the ethanol industry and that is fine) would champion that statement....and I agree!!! Thus my adding the economics of Ethanol in rebuttal to the thread starters comments....as for the math....and once again not my numbers but various reports under varying conditions by various "entities"...show less MPG than petrol.....The thread starter himself says 30% less miles per tankful with E85 versus petrol and I do not disagree with that...do you?
    And in the spirit you have set...that is exactly one of my biggest concerns with E85 and the entire program...."Which is it"...damn numbers jump all over everywhere...depends on if folks have an agenda....I do not have an agenda....just observations...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FasstChevys View Post
    Fuel mileage is different with any vehicle and is not 30% less with E85 compared with gasoline on a vehicle set up to burn both. Bullshit again Sarge.
    Bullshit rightback at you friend. Here is a documented study utilizing a 2007 Flex Fuel GMC Tahoe set and manufactured specifically for Gasoline or E85....guess what? 30% less MPG on E85. Call them up and holler "bullshit" at them pal... http://www.caranddriver.com/features...omy-page7.html
    "Differences in acceleration times were insignificant (although GM says E85 improves horsepower by as much as three percent). On the downside, the fuel economy on E85 was diminished more than 30 percent in two of the three tests, about what we expected. The EPA’s numbers suggest that fuel economy worsens by 28 percent on E85 compared with regular gas. On any Tahoe equipped with a 5.3-liter V-8, the E85 flex-fuel feature is a no-cost option, but running E85 reduces the driving range from roughly 390 miles a tank to about 290."
    Last edited by Sarge; 11-10-2006 at 11:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FasstChevys View Post
    Ok Sarge, let's go toe to toe. I have facts and experience producing and using ethanol. What experience do you have? Let's talk about it.
    I think I got to all your post.....and await your rebuttal to continue our public discussion....but I will now answer this question.....My experience? sure MBA and CEO...BB Six Sigma methodologies....and 30 years experience dealing with and consulting with Fortune 50 companies on a global basis defining return on investments to true cost.....so I can qualify myself as not getting a paycheck from either the ethanol community nor the petrol community.....can you?
    Last edited by Sarge; 11-10-2006 at 11:13 AM.

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    OK...Now I would love somebody in the industry or championing this stuff to address, versus ignore, the questions raised here concerning water/corrosiveness of E85 in a car not "modified" to run E85. I will continue any agenda driven discussion with anybody as I have no agenda...but I find it unfortunate not to address the real issues as presented in this string by other members concerning fuel system degradation and damage from running E85.

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    It is also not 40cents cheaper in many states that are just starting to come online so cost is not really a arguement yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YoMommasTA View Post
    Sarge i have pictures of my fuel system subjected to two years of 10% efuel.The damage is quite frankly unbelieveable,holes eatten through the fuel rail,fuel lines rusted and corroded badly,all the metals parts in the fuel bucket assemby completely ruined.I'll glady post them up.
    Let see em!

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    [QUOTE=Sarge;459826]
    Quote Originally Posted by FasstChevys View Post
    Ok Sarge, let's go toe to toe. I have facts and experience producing and using ethanol.
    Sure....It is healthy and good for everybody to have mature rational discussion. This will be fun.....Maybe you can school this old man and maybe not...we'll see....OK....I see you have posted a few items....let me answer ...
    Very respectfully Sarge. I am an open-minded person, and give respect where it's due.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    Bullshit rightback at you friend. Here is a documented study utilizing a 2007 Flex Fuel GMC Tahoe set and manufactured specifically for Gasoline or E85....guess what? 30% less MPG on E85. Call them up and holler "bullshit" at them pal... http://www.caranddriver.com/features...omy-page7.html
    "Differences in acceleration times were insignificant (although GM says E85 improves horsepower by as much as three percent). On the downside, the fuel economy on E85 was diminished more than 30 percent in two of the three tests, about what we expected. The EPA’s numbers suggest that fuel economy worsens by 28 percent on E85 compared with regular gas. On any Tahoe equipped with a 5.3-liter V-8, the E85 flex-fuel feature is a no-cost option, but running E85 reduces the driving range from roughly 390 miles a tank to about 290."
    In regard to the 5.3 liter Chevy engines, my friend does have a flex fuel 5.3 liter Avalanche and says the mileage is indeed quite lower. (perhaps 30% in that instance) Again, it goes back to each vehicle being unique, I think we can agree on that. The Ford Taurus in my instance is not even 5% difference. So, in our examples we have a range from 5 to 30%. That really doesn't say much for our technology, but like I said before, you have to start from somewhere.

    My arguement is, and always will be ,the fact that any car manufacturer can achieve any fuel economy they want to....but that's really not part of the discussion. Either way, the Saab 95 Turbo proves this without question by actually improving fuel mileage and horsepower with E85 over gasoline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SSTODD View Post
    It is also not 40cents cheaper in many states that are just starting to come online so cost is not really a arguement yet.
    Why isn't it an arguement? It's very rare to see E85 under 20 cents per gallon cheaper than gas anywhere it's sold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    'LOL...not my statement and I see I did not provide the link to the "source"...my bad........and on a side note....that is why I left all the links in the reference statement active for further documentation and to show it was not my statement but a quote from another document........with that said....I posted those statements simply for the economics of ethanol....and in rebuttal to the thread starters statement of "Why is ethanol a better fuel"....which I think is bullshit and should be dismissed as you yourself point out...nobody in the industry (which you are in the ethanol industry and that is fine) would champion that statement....and I agree!!! Thus my adding the economics of Ethanol in rebuttal to the thread starters comments....as for the math....and once again not my numbers but various reports under varying conditions by various "entities"...show less MPG than petrol.....The thread starter himself says 30% less miles per tankful with E85 versus petrol and I do not disagree with that...do you?
    And in the spirit you have set...that is exactly one of my biggest concerns with E85 and the entire program...."Which is it"...damn numbers jump all over everywhere...depends on if folks have an agenda....I do not have an agenda....just observations...

    By the way, my bad if I put those words in your mouth.

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    Sarge, here is a little info on E85 and pipelines. E85 is a summer mixture, not because of the miscibility of water and ethanol, but because of the lower vapor pressure and its effect on starting. Winter blends require more gasoline to provide enough volatility for starting. On the pipeline issues, the problems are not with ethanol and its effect on pipes, which is nothing at all, but on the crap left behind by gasoline and other petroleum products. Ethanol is an excellent solvent, and cleans out all that stuff left in the pipeline—including water. There is so much water in our pipeline system that the first transshipment of ethanol will come out the other end of the pipe looking like tea (rather than clear and bright, as it must be by definition) and it will be below specification in proof. Fuel ethanol is required to be less than 0.5% water. No way you can ship through the pipeline and meet the specification. However, a major pipeline company in the Midwest has already experimented with pipeline shipments of ethanol. Their results showed that pipeline shipments are possible, but would require at least a once a week shipment to keep the pipelines clean enough to not degrade the ethanol quality. The first shipment comes out at lower proof and tea colored, and then shipments after that are OK. With the rapid growth of the ethanol industry in the Midwest, and with major gasoline consumers being on the coasts, there will be a push to pipeline larger quantities of ethanol in the coming years. I applaud the use of ethanol.

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    Yup....I think we may have strayed here....I responded not so much as to what the fella overseas had to share...but to cut and paste the exact same thing in numerous car forums (word for word) was poor taste and leads one to dismiss anything he was saying. If you read everything he says he gets loose with facts there...also he "skirts" some issues rather nicely...so all in all...I call bullshit......Now is alternative fuel a good thing...yup.....I think we may/will never see E85 as a cost effective viable alternative due the infrastructure requirements and the modifications needed to run it in cars built before E85.....and the sheer numbers tell us it is not viable on a mass scale.....maybe inner city/metropolitan areas...or public transportation and farm equipment type stuff...sure...maybe....but to jump on numerous forums and blast " This is how you tune your LS1" is getting out there on the edge of reality. In short....you and I can "tune" our LS1's to run processed pig fat...doesn't make it viable though.....oh well....mebbe he can enlighten us or send some of pics of him with Swedish babes....then I don't care what in the hell type of fuel the boy uses Your a good guy and I appreciate your responses...
    I do have a question for you though....do you advocate pulling into a gas station and loading up with E85 and making no changes to your gas burning designed car?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    OK...Now I would love somebody in the industry or championing this stuff to address, versus ignore, the questions raised here concerning water/corrosiveness of E85 in a car not "modified" to run E85. I will continue any agenda driven discussion with anybody as I have no agenda...but I find it unfortunate not to address the real issues as presented in this string by other members concerning fuel system degradation and damage from running E85.
    Sarge, you aren't going to hear me say that running E85 in any vehicle (including LS1's) not set up for it will not cause any damage. I hope you didn't get that out of anything I said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    Yup....I think we may have strayed here....I responded not so much as to what the fella overseas had to share...but to cut and paste the exact same thing in numerous car forums (word for word) was poor taste and leads one to dismiss anything he was saying. If you read everything he says he gets loose with facts there...also he "skirts" some issues rather nicely...so all in all...I call bullshit......Now is alternative fuel a good thing...yup.....I think we may/will never see E85 as a cost effective viable alternative due the infrastructure requirements and the modifications needed to run it in cars built before E85.....and the sheer numbers tell us it is not viable on a mass scale.....maybe inner city/metropolitan areas...or public transportation and farm equipment type stuff...sure...maybe....but to jump on numerous forums and blast " This is how you tune your LS1" is getting out there on the edge of reality. In short....you and I can "tune" our LS1's to run processed pig fat...doesn't make it viable though.....oh well....mebbe he can enlighten us or send some of pics of him with Swedish babes....then I don't care what in the hell typer of fuel the boy uses Your a good guy and I appreciate your responses...
    I do have a question for you though....do you advocate pulling into a gas station and loading up with E85 and making no changes to your gas burning designed car?
    Hell no on the last question! But, I will admit running straight E85 in the company truck ('03 6.0 liter Chevy p/u) just to see what it would do.

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    If its not raining here tomorrow i will get the parts out of storage and take pictures.The damage is so bad you might think these parts were left outside to degrade.They infact have been inside stored in a plastic bag,i was hoping gm would help pay some of the bill.

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    Well .....on the pipeline thing.....I had to go find the goverment report...and I did....that sez E85 is corrosive as hell..... http://www.cga.ct.gov/2006/rpt/2006-R-0524.htm
    "
    Ethanol is not easily transported through fuel pipelines because it absorbs both water, which may remove some of the ethanol, and impurities, which can harm motor vehicle engines. Ethanol also is corrosive and may damage the pipeline itself. Ethanol therefore must be shipped to terminals by truck, barge or train before it is blended with gasoline.

    According to the U. S. Department of Energy, care must also be taken in handling and dispensing E85. Ethanol is not compatible with aluminum, and all aluminum products must be removed from a gasoline dispensing system that will be used to dispense E85.
    There also are some restrictions on how E85 must be stored. For more information, see the U. S. Department of Energy's Handbook for Handling, Storing and Dispensing E85 (attached).


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    Quote Originally Posted by YoMommasTA View Post
    If its not raining here tomorrow i will get the parts out of storage and take pictures.The damage is so bad you might think these parts were left outside to degrade.They infact have been inside stored in a plastic bag,i was hoping gm would help pay some of the bill.
    FYI, Minnesota mandates a 10% ethanol blend in ALL of the gasoline. In that regard, all of the gas that's ran through my LS1 has been an ethanol blend. It's unfortunate what has happened to you and your fuel system, but I haven't seen the corrosion you speak of in any of my vehicles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FasstChevys View Post
    Hell no on the last question! But, I will admit running straight E85 in the company truck ('03 6.0 liter Chevy p/u) just to see what it would do.
    LOL...when I was about 14 or 15 we put jet fuel we "borrowed" from Bell Helicopter in my Dad 64 PU Truck It fucked it up something fierce.....50 years later I still ain't said shit to nobody about it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    Well .....on the pipeline thing.....I had to go find the goverment report...and I did....that sez E85 is corrosive as hell..... http://www.cga.ct.gov/2006/rpt/2006-R-0524.htm
    "
    Ethanol is not easily transported through fuel pipelines because it absorbs both water, which may remove some of the ethanol, and impurities, which can harm motor vehicle engines. Ethanol also is corrosive and may damage the pipeline itself. Ethanol therefore must be shipped to terminals by truck, barge or train before it is blended with gasoline.

    According to the U. S. Department of Energy, care must also be taken in handling and dispensing E85. Ethanol is not compatible with aluminum, and all aluminum products must be removed from a gasoline dispensing system that will be used to dispense E85.
    There also are some restrictions on how E85 must be stored. For more information, see the U. S. Department of Energy's Handbook for Handling, Storing and Dispensing E85 (attached).

    I see what you're saying, but I find their wording to be interesting by using the words "may" and "can"........a lot. They use those words since they haven't tried it on a full scale over long periods of time yet. I'll go back to my statement that says all of these things and problems cannot be solved over night......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    LOL...when I was about 14 or 15 we put jet fuel we "borrowed" from Bell Helicopter in my Dad 64 PU Truck It fucked it up something fierce.....50 years later I still ain't said shit to nobody about it
    Now that right there is funny

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