Page 1 of 7 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 134

How to run your LS1 on E85

This is a discussion on How to run your LS1 on E85 within the External Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; ...

  1. #1
    Member Runn_WS7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Tranås, Sweden
    Age
    41
    Posts
    211

    Black
    1998 Trans Am WS7

    Post How to run your LS1 on E85

    MORE INFO IS COMMING! WORK IN PROGRESS





    Soo you want to use E85? Iīm getting alot of question about E85 and i try to answer but i dont have the time to answer everybody. Soo i have put together some info for you... First the info you need and later a small howto.

    There is tons of info about sparktiming and best AF to use with Gas but on E85 it is almost nothing, We have to work together here and share our experiences.


    Be patient please, more info will be added

    First of all, what is E85?:
    E85 consists of 85% ethanol and 15% additives. The additives vary a lot depending on where you live and time of the year. But roughly, the 15% additives is mostly made up of gasoline, additives that helps the engine to make a complete burn, additives that helps the engine start when itīs cold and additives to color the fuel and the flame (so you know what substance it is, and also to help you see that it is really burning).


    (Positive) facts about E85:
    1. It is not corrosive to the fuel system or the engine. This is a myth and ethanol is often confused with methanol, which actually have corrosive properties. Iīve run my car for well over two years on E85 without a problem. Some models before 1988 on the other hand may have some parts that is not ethanol resistant. If we are talking Volvoīs, then this mainly applies to the non-electronically injection systems such as K-jet etc. Most cars with electronical fuel injection (EFI) should be resistant to ethanol. Some people say it would kill your engine right away and that you should buy there racefuel instead (of course they say :eyes: )

    2. It is not as harmful to the nature/environment as gasoline or any other petroleum products for that matter. Ethanol is made out of renewable energy resources such as crops and trees to name a few things. The carbon dioxide that an ethanol powered car emits is not contributing to the greenhouse effect, but is taken up by the plants and is being "re-used". The carbon dioxide then goes around in a closed loop. Gasoline on the other hand is made from oil that comes from old dinosaurs , plants and other stuff 100 000 of years ago, and it doesnīt take part in the closed loop but only adds to the amount of greenhouse gasses. Ethanol is also easily bio-degradeable if it should leak into our environment.

    3. E85 is 104-105 octane and therefore itīs more knock-resistent and can tolerate more boost or a higher CR.

    4. E85 cools the intake charge more and therefore itīs more knock-resistent and can tolerate more boost or a higher CR. And it also makes the engine run cooler and to some degree, even safer.

    5. E85 is in most cases at least 5% more effícient than gasoline at the same lambda value (up to 25% more efficient on some cars optimized soley for E85). Mill your heads

    6. Since E85 has very good cleaning properties as well as leaving behind a rest-product of water, it is cleaning the fuel system and it will keep the injectors nice and clean. The combustion chambers, valves, ports and the exhaust will also be clean(er), almost like the car had water injection.

    7. In most cases it will cost less $/mile to run on E85.


    (Negative) facts about E85:
    1. Cars running on E85 have some trouble starting when the engine temperature drops below +5*C. Cars running E100 (not very common) have some trouble starting when the intake (the air) temperature is below +15*C. This is easily solved by using an engine heater in the winter, electrical or fuel-heated (this is recommended on all cars regardless of fuel to get better mileage, less wear on the engine and less impact on the environment etc., but that is another matter to discuss and will not be brought up here...). Some people also adds a little extra gasoline to the tank of E85 to help with cold-starts.

    2. Since cars running E85 requires roughly 30% more fuel, a tank of E85 will not get you as far as a tank of gasoline and you will have to refuel more often. This is often disregarded by E85 users who learn to live with it because of the economical gains.


    Technical facts about the mentioned fuels:
    E85 requires 39% more fuel to reach stoich even if that is not what you may come up with when doing calculations based on the table below. This is because the injector flow is slightly different when using E85 among many other things I canīt really think of at this time (will be added at a later time).

    Fuel ........................ AFRst ........ FARst ....... Equivalence Ratio ... Lambda
    Gas stoich ................ 14.7 .......... 0.068 ................ 1 ................... 1
    Gas max power rich .... 12.5 .......... 0.08 ................. 1.176 .............. 0.8503
    Gas max power lean .... 13.23 ........ 0.0755 .............. 1.111 ............. 0.900
    E85 stoich .................. 9.765 ....... 0.10235 ............ 1 ................... 1
    E85 max power rich ...... 6.975 ....... 0.1434 .............. 1.40 ............... 0.7143
    E85 max power lean ..... 8.4687 ...... 0.118 ............... 1.153 .............. 0.8673
    E100 stoich ................ 9.0078 ...... 0.111 ............... 1 .................... 1
    E100 max power rich .... 6.429 ........ 0.155 .............. 1.4 .................. 0.714
    E100 max power lean .... 7.8 .... ...... 0.128 .............. 1.15 ................ 0.870

    Ethanol reaches max torque at richer mixtures than gasoline will.
    The term AFRst refers to the Air Fuel Ratio under stoichiometric, or ideal air fuel ratio mixture conditions. FARst refers to the Fuel Air Ratio under stoichiometric conditions, and is simply the reciprocal of AFRst.

    Equivalence Ratio is the ratio of actual Fuel Air Ratio to Stoichiometric Fuel Air Ratio; it provides an intuitive way to express richer mixtures. Lambda is the ratio of actual Air Fuel Ratio to Stoichiometric Air Fuel Ratio; it provides an intuitive way to express leanness conditions (i.e., less fuel, less rich) mixtures of fuel and air.

    As you can see from the table shown above this section, the ideal target AFRīs under boost for both gasoline and E85 are listed. For gasoline itīs 13.23-12.5, and for E85 itīs 8.47-6.975. However, with E85 you will not need to richen the mixture under WOT/boost as far as 6.975 or beyond. It does not need to be proportionally richer when compared to gasoline.

    Why? Again, Because the fuel has a cooling effect on the intake charge and the space in which the combustion occurs. And at such a low AFR as 9.765 (lambda=1 on E85) or lower the fuel cools pretty good, donīt you think so?

    Many people with some experience in mapping an ECU for use with E85 says that as high AFR as 8.5 or lambda=0.80-0.85 works well. No need to go to the extreme end of the useable scale to get safe power. It only uses a lot of fuel without giving any benefits.

    E85 burns faster than gasoline at best mixtures so it is an inherently more effecient fuel. It also produces more exhaust gas for a give weight of fuel air mix giving higher average cylinder pressures inspite of lower EGT's. With streight E85 in a properly tuned car its good for about +5% power / torque increase. I suspect on a turbocharged car the benefit is larger.

    Since you donīt have to richen the mixture as many percent (proportionally) as you have to on gasoline, you can make more power without having to use as much fuel.

    How does ignition timing change on E85 ?
    Timing on ethanol blends will not change very much. MBT timing for both gasoline and E85 are very nearly the same at light to moderate engine loads. At high engine load the E85 will want just slightly more advance. The big difference will be fuel/air mixture. The E85 will give improved torque with much richer mixtures than gasoline. Both gasoline and E85 will give best thermal effeciency at about 15% rich of stoich, so the equivalent of 12.78:1 on gasoline would be about 8.5:1 on E85, but E85 will continue to give better torque numbers up to about +40% rich of stoich or 7:1 mixtures, so on a utec you would want to richen up your WOT high load cells and add a tweak of timing to get the most out of E85 from what I've read. I run my car on 8.3:1 right now. I have tried much richer mixtures but i have not compared it on a dyno yet.

    Quote:
    Are you sure you don't mean that E85 will allow more advance?
    Just passing on what I've found in the various sources. Logically you are correct, but one source says simply that MBT timing is the same for E85 and gasoline, and another report says at low loads the E85 and gasoline like the same MBT timing but at high loads MBT timing for the E85 is slightly more advance.

    I suspect this is due to them not running ideal max power mixtures but cannot confirm it. Burn speed for E85 changes quite a bit with mixture, so if they were just a little bit lean or rich of ideal the burn rate would be lower.

    Lots and lots of variables not well covered in some of the sources and in general they are focusing on emissions issues not max power torque so that would incline them to use less than best power timing advance. In a couple of the reports they also had limited control authority over timing and may not have explored the extremes very thoroughly.
    I have also read that E85 burns much quicker than gas at rich mixtures soo if you have your timing advanced and go WOT you could get powerloss (And you micht not pick up any knocks) because of the burnspeed being to fast.


    Economical gains:
    So let me tell you guys about the fuel prices here in Sweden.
    98 octane gasoline cost 12sek/L = $1.68/L = $6.36/gallon.
    And 104 octane E85 cost 8sek/L = $1.12/L = $4.24/gallon.

    Even that my car wants more fuel with E85 i still save money.
    www.ws7.se
    http://www.ls1.com/forums/f69/my-black-ta-modemkiller-1249/
    Running on E85

    Twin Turbo Project Started

    Hello from Sweden.

  2. #2
    Member Runn_WS7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Tranås, Sweden
    Age
    41
    Posts
    211

    Black
    1998 Trans Am WS7

    My experience with E85:
    1. Better power (cooler intake charge, higher octane and the fact that it is cleaning the engine pretty good).

    2. Smoother power and better stability at part-load.

    3. I donīt want to go any higher than 16psi on the stock 13c piece of **** turbo, but it pulls harder and harder all the way to redline.

    4. After only 50 miles the tail-pipe began to get a lighter color. It was black inside before, now itīs brown and very transparent. My pipe is chromed and now you can see the chrome on the inside as well. When I have driven the car for a couple of 100 miles more I will tell you if it has got any cleaner inside.

    5. The sound from the engine is different. It sounds more powerful.

    6. The smell from the exhaust is much nicer. I cant describe the smell, When the car is hot i dont smell anything wierd. BTW i drive without cats.


    Will my O2 sensor work with E85 and high ethanol blends?
    The O2 sensor is not an issue, all it cares about is if your at stoich combustion at low throttle settings, it doesn't much care how you get there, so no need to change it. There is a thread about this on this forum somewhere where i explane this... (see if i can find i later)

    What about oil contamination?
    Modern lubricants, especially the synthetic oils are much much different than the oils used during those studies, and modern engines run at higher temperatures today which will quickly boil any traces of alcohol out of the oil.

    How much will my miles per gallon of fuel drop with E85?
    The only negative to E85 is that it gives a lower fuel milage on a gallon for gallon basis to gasoline. The actual difference in energy content between straight gasoline and E85 is about 27%.
    The drop in milage is not as significant as you would think based on that difference due to the higher effeciency of the ethanol as a high performance fuel.
    The lower milage is not really a big deal, ethanol has lower energy per gallon but your reduction in milage is not nearly as large as that difference would imply. Due to the higher torque,you use slightly smaller throttle openings to get the same level of preformance, and due to the greater quantity of combustion products (more moles of gas) per lb of fuel the engine effeciency actually goes up slightly.

    Will a wide band O2 sensor accurately read fuel air mixtures with E85 blends ?
    To get an accurate AFR reading you need to switch the meter to Lambda or equivalence ratio setting rather than AFR. Most O2 sensors assume you are running gasoline and will report a stoichimetric mixture as 14.7:1 which is the proper value for gasoline. E85 has a Stoichemetric mixture of between 9.7 - 10:1 and a max power mixture of about 6.98-8.5:1 or so, where with gasoline it is 12.5:1-to 13.1.

    If you must use an O2 sensor that only reports gasoline AFR information simply divide the numbers it reports by 1.47 - 1.50.
    The O2 sensors would still work. They don't understand AFR, they only understand rich/lean. If you are using regular or E10 the stoich AFR is ~14.7:1 (as you well know) and when the O2s are switching, this is the AFR it is indicating. When you are using E85 (AFR 9.765:1), the O2s will still work, switching between rich/lean. It's just that the point they are switching at is 9.765:1. You have to know what fuel you are burning to properly interpret the information the O2 sensors are providing.
    Lambda 1 is always Lambda 1 no matter what you drive your car on, the o2 sensor doesnīt care if the AFR are 14,7 or 9.765... it measures the available o2 in the exhaust gases.

    Is Ethanol less corrosive than Methanol?
    Methanol is much more corrosive than ethanol. It attacks certain soft metals that are not much used in modern fuel systems. Years ago, the carburators were made of un-anodized aluminum and if methanol fuel was used, you had major problems with electrolytic corrosion between the aluminum and copper components used in the fuel system, since they were in continous contact.

    That sort of corrosion only occurs when you have a current path between the dissimilar metals AND, a conductive path through the fluid in the system.

    In Brazil where they have run high ethanol fuels since 1939, they found that to convert older cars designed for gasoline, long before ethanol blends were common, needed several changes to convert the cars over. This led to changes in valve materials, piston rings choices, nickle plating of the fuel tanks etc.

    Modern cars in the U.S. are designed for use with ethanol up to 10% concentration in the fuel. That has led to several changes in component materials over the last 30 years that the U.S. has used ethanol enhanced fuels. All modern fuel lines and such are designed with the expectation that some ethanol will be in the fuel.

    What about fuel system corrosion?
    Corrosion does not appear to be an issue with modern OBDII cars. They are all certified by the manufactures to be safe to use on 10% ethanol fuel blends, and industry insiders say they are safe for much higher percentages. You don't install components that are "sorta safe" with a chemical, you put in a fuel hose etc. that is ethanol safe for concentrations well above what you expect to use. Not to mention that folks have been talking for years about raising the ethanol level to 20% or more.

    Many years ago there were studies that indicated engines that ran on alcohol ALONE as a fuel, had issues with lubrication and valve seat wear. Keep in mind, those studies were done a long time ago, when engine oils were much less sophisticated than they are now, and some engine manufactures in the 1940's,1950' and 1960's made stupid engineering decisions and did not use hard valve seat inserts like stellite in the cylinder heads. This resulted in valve seat recession problems if you did not have lead additives in the fuel to protect the valve seats.


    To sum it all up
    Why is Ethanol a better fuel ?
    1. It has a much higher evaporative cooling power than gasoline so the intake air charge in the cylinder is significantly cooler that it is with a comparable mixture of gasoline --- that means higher VE.

    2. Its octane as blended in E85 is about 100, its blending octane when added to gasoline is rated at 118, so it is a very cost effective octane booster.

    3. Ethanol burns faster than gasoline but has a slightly longer ignition delay during the slow burn phase of combustion so the engine does not do as much negative work fighting rising cylinder pressures due to large ignition advances. The total ignition advance for E85 is almost identical to the ideal advance for gasoline so it does not cause the PCM problems when you mix them.

    4. At proper mixture you actually are releasing more energy in the cylinder due to the higher quantity of fuel you can burn. ( Ethanol can burn effeciently at much richer mixtures than gasoline can) That means about a 5% increase in energy release all by itself.

    5. Peak combustion pressures are actually lower for ethanol than for gasoline but the cylinder pressures stay higher longer, so you have more (longer) crank angle that is usable by the engine. This lower peak cylinder pressure also helps with detonaton control.

    6. Theorethically, the gain is 5% just by switching fuel. 350 hp X 5% = 15 hp, plus what can be gained from timing.

    7. The ethanol is cleaner and does not cause problems and if used in an E85 mix it will promote better lubrication of the parts in contact with the mixture and thus, will increase the engine useful life and ensure a significant increase in fuel economy.
    Last edited by Runn_WS7; 11-11-2006 at 01:04 AM.

  3. #3
    Member Runn_WS7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Tranås, Sweden
    Age
    41
    Posts
    211

    Black
    1998 Trans Am WS7

    And what about the HowTo?

    Actually there isnīt much you have to do..

    1. Buy HPTuners.

    2. Buy bigger injectors and istall them. Iīm using #42. Iīm going to upgrade to a better fuel pump in the future (at the same time that iīm installing new heads... AFR with high compression to take advantage of E85īs high octane)

    3. Empty your fuel tank, just run the tank as empty as you can, Doesnīt really matter if there is some gas left, When you fill it up the next time youīl know you only have E85.

    4. To save valueble "tuningtime" use HPTuners and change your Stoich AFR to 9.799 (look at picture). Or you can leave it alone but then you have to increase your VE-table alot more.

    picture 1 http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3918721

    I found out that raising the Cranking fuel tables by 20% made the car easier to start and adding 15% to the OLFA makes the enging run smoother on warmup.

    5. Iīve put my PE to look like this (and iīve also added a couple of degrees timing up top). Start with your standard timing and standard PE... We can talk timing and PE later on in this thread.
    My stoich is put to 9.799 and my PE to 1.18 - 9.799/1.18=8.3 which if you look at the tables earlier in the post you would se that it a good value for lean power.

    picture 2 coming later...

    picture 3, itīs an old picture iv'e added more timing since... http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3918723

    6. Fill up your tank with E85 and put the new values in your PCM. Since the Stoich is changed the VE-table might not change so much it depends of how well your car was tuned before. But take it slow and tune in the low map at first. WB is recommended but you can tune in the lower part af the VE with stock O2. You should be able to feel the extra torque that E85 gives you :drive:
    Of course you can mix it with gasoline if you want to and start with maybe 20% E85 and go from there and next time tune with 40% E85 and so on.

    7. The E85 will clean the tank and fuel lines from old "crap" i recommend that you change your fuel filter when the fuel tank goes empty. Buy two because you really want to change it after a couple of tanks again. Better safe than sorry. E85 acts as an injector cleaner which is really nice, This means that your injectors are always in perfect "shape".

    8. When you have your whole VE tuned in, Start experimenting with PE and timing (Be aware of the octane (104) of E85, you can use so mutch timing that you will loose power and possibly also damage your engine, This WITHOUT any knock) , A dyno will help alot here...

    9. Post up your results. I am very interested at which timing you find most power at. Also if you have alot of dynotime experment with lean and fat WOT PE.

    I canīt think about anything more right about now, But ask questions...

    More info will come

  4. #4

  5. #5
    Member 01blkformula's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    tulsa ok
    Age
    29
    Posts
    198

    black
    2001 pontiac formula

    this should be a sticky, nice wright up

  6. #6
    Member Runn_WS7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Tranås, Sweden
    Age
    41
    Posts
    211

    Black
    1998 Trans Am WS7

    Quote Originally Posted by 01blkformula View Post
    this should be a sticky, nice wright up
    Thanks.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Runn_WS7 View Post
    Thanks.
    Geez anyone reading this thread DO NOT put E85 in your fbody!If YOU DO you'll be sorry trust me on this.E85 is so wrong for your LS1 its insane!

    I gotta add one more thing the info in this thread is wrong it should be deleted from this site.

  8. #8
    Grand Imperial Wizard Sarge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Texas Department of Corrections
    Posts
    18,129
    Retired Outlaw Sum Bitch

    This info is bogus as hell. Misleading and inaccurate. I will address later on this weekend point by point but for right now I will tell you flat out this entire write up is a boatload of crap and misinformation.

    I'll just quickly qualify my statement with a couple of facts for all to ponder.
    1. E85 is a summer blend of 85% alcohol and 15% gasoline. In the winter it must be blended to 70%-30% or at the least 75%-25%. You must retune again to compensate for this fuel mixture to have a chance of running it....then tune back as the blends adjust throughout the year or worse yet....adjust your tune depending on where your travels take you as various parts of the country will have various mix ratios. Anybody want to carry their laptop and HP Tuners around tuning all the time? And the fun factoid about this stuff and our LS1's......why do they adjust the blend?....lets go on to item #2.....
    2. E85/E75 attracts water.....lots of it. They " the E85 advocates" have been trying for a few years to work out how to reduce the moisture/water in this stuff ( notice not eliminate) and if it has a chance in hell of succeeding as a alternative fuel it must be transported around the country in pipelines. They cannot get the water out. It is so bad the best they have come up with will corrode and rust the pipelines, even with Teflon coatings, in less than a year....
    The reason they adjust the blend is the higher the ethanol mix the more water it attracts/absorbs in cooler temps. Define cooler temps...OK.....under 90*f. So I live in New York...Temps at night in the summer drop to 78*f....my LS1 is out there making water in my gas tank....
    Bottom line is a alternative fuel is a good thing. This is not the answer. Facts are it is unstable as hell and requires you to tune constantly to even run the stuff. It is a water making SOB and I ain't running corn/gas/water in my car for shit. The hypocrisy of trying to "poo poo" the fact the very advocates of this stuff cannot figure out how to pipeline transport this stuff without corroding the pipelines...but on the other hand telling us it will not corrode any of our high dollar fuel plumbing is a damn shame.
    I'll go toe to toe with this Swedish fella this weekend. I love a good debate and maybe my old ass can learn something....but right now I cannot sit on my ass and let this go unchallenged.
    The BIG problem I have with this stuff is more economics. Is it cheaper right now? Yes....you know why? Cuz the government ( Your tax dollars) is subsidizing it. Well shit....The Government is subsidizing it to get it "off the ground" then they will not subsidize it anymore...and with the very fact it is more expensive to refine than petrol....the cost will exceed petrol when the subsidies cease. That and it get like 30% less MPG than gas and you got a big ol ball of inefficient shit sandwich you got to tune constantly to run, is more expensive, but your kyrptonite fuel plumbing only cost you $3000 dollars and looks good
    Sicky? Sticky my ass....should go into the bullshit hall of fame.
    Last edited by Sarge; 11-10-2006 at 05:11 AM.
    This is my signature. It is mine. Nobody else has one like it.

  9. #9
    Sarge i have pictures of my fuel system subjected to two years of 10% efuel.The damage is quite frankly unbelieveable,holes eatten through the fuel rail,fuel lines rusted and corroded badly,all the metals parts in the fuel bucket assemby completely ruined.I'll glady post them up.

  10. #10
    Grand Imperial Wizard Sarge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Texas Department of Corrections
    Posts
    18,129
    Retired Outlaw Sum Bitch

    I hear ya...this guy obviously has an agenda outside of just sharing info...a cut and paste job posted on numerous forums....bullshit....I'll discuss/debate each and every claim at his leisure....I know this shit does major fucking damage to a car not setup to run it.....GM will admit and warn you about it...so anybody coming to this forum with this cut and paste propaganda bullshit better be ready.
    I came close to just deleting his post....but thought we use this forum to learn....and misinformation posted like this on numerous forums is a learning opportunity in my humble opinion....so instead of deleting I welcome the opportunity to discuss this mans claims from Sweden or wherever the fuck he really comes from....His IP address is out of Amsterdam....

  11. #11
    MOTOR CITY MARO' SSTODD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    LIVONIA,MICHIGAN
    Age
    51
    Posts
    786

    PEWTER
    2000 CAMARO SS #3821

    What about the new vehicles made to run on all types? If they have not solved the problem I don't think I want to buy one capable of burning the stuff just to pay dearly down the road for repairs.

  12. #12
    Grand Imperial Wizard Sarge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Texas Department of Corrections
    Posts
    18,129
    Retired Outlaw Sum Bitch

    Well firstly the cars being built to run E85 have some major differences than our cars. 2ndly......the economics of nationwide E85 usage is a pipe dream. It makes no sense at all......

  13. #13
    Grand Imperial Wizard Sarge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Texas Department of Corrections
    Posts
    18,129
    Retired Outlaw Sum Bitch

    I hear your question: "If that's true, why is the conventional wisdom so wrong?" That deserves an answer. Several answers, actually, because there are a lot of different groups with different interests converging to the same point of emphasis.
    • The farm lobby wants concentration on ethanol because it wants grain prices to stay high. Farmers have been extremely successful, to the point that they have produced more grain than US consumers and even farm animals can eat. This condition of surplus makes it a buyer's market; the price falls below the cost of production and farmers are threatened with bankruptcy. We used to deal with this problem with production set-asides to manage supply, but one period of shortage caused price spikes and a consumer backlash which threw that out the window.

      For farmers, the 30-billion-odd gallon figure is a good thing. The market for liquid motor fuel is one that grain farmers can never saturate (absent a huge change in the vehicle fleet). But conditions of perpetual shortage and high prices which are good for farmers are very bad for consumers.
    • The auto makers want ethanol because the law gives them huge benefits for doing almost nothing. Take GM's "Live Green, Go Yellow" campaign. This takes advantage of the "E85 loophole"; maybe $150 for a flex-fuel sensor and some ECU software, and a monster gas-guzzler like a Suburban or Durango gets close to a 50% CAFE-rating boost. (Here's another link.) The loophole assumes that flex-fuel vehicles will use E85 half the time, but seriously: do you visit any stations with E85 pumps? Have you even seen an E85 pump? Do you think many people would actually buy E85 knowing that they'd pay a mileage penalty between 1/4 and 1/3?

      This is also why some carmakers are playing with hydrogen fuel for conventional engines instead of fuel cells: it's cheap to demonstrate, and it makes them look like they're doing something.
    • The oil industry has a love/hate relationship with ethanol. The blenders hate it because its high vapor pressure requires special refining for the gasoline fraction, and its finicky tendency to separate if it gets damp requires special (and expensive) shipping. But the business as a whole loves it; it's not a competitive threat, it makes the public feel that Something Is Being Done, and they get to enjoy high prices while people vacillate about whether or not to ditch liquid fuels completely and go with something like electricity.
    There are some voices on the other side. For instance, the CEO of AutoNation has called for the automakers to produce vehicles which can run at least partly on electricity. This would cost in the short term, but be much better for the health of the industry and the nation in the long term. Think about energy security: if you depend on corn or switchgrass for your fuel, a drought or period of grass fires (like Kansas through Texas this year) could jeopardize the nation's fuel supply as badly as a bunch of hurricanes in the Gulf. But if your "extra" fuel is electricity, you can make it from wind, sun, coal or even splitting atoms. The supply of electricity is much more secure than the supply of gasoline or ethanol.

  14. #14
    MOTOR CITY MARO' SSTODD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    LIVONIA,MICHIGAN
    Age
    51
    Posts
    786

    PEWTER
    2000 CAMARO SS #3821

    Car and Driver had a big write up on the same thing that it cannot cover our thirst for fuel. You may have seen it but it had alot of good data.

  15. #15
    Senior Member FasstChevys's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    3,315

    White
    '10 ZR1

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    Well firstly the cars being built to run E85 have some major differences than our cars. 2ndly......the economics of nationwide E85 usage is a pipe dream. It makes no sense at all......
    Ok Sarge, let's go toe to toe. I have facts and experience producing and using ethanol. What experience do you have? Let's talk about it.

  16. #16
    Senior Member FasstChevys's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    3,315

    White
    '10 ZR1

    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    [LIST][*]Corn ethanol can't do the job. The USA burns about 140 billion gallons of gasoline per year. Ethanol has less energy per gallon, so it would take about 210 billion gallons of ethanol to replace it. But even the entire record corn harvest in 2004 (11.8 billion bushels) would make barely more than 30 billion gallons of ethanol. In short, "Live Green, Go Yellow" and other variations on that theme are scams.
    This is a bullshit statement all by it's self Sarge. You won't hear one person in the ethanol industry that knows anything say that ethanol is the entire answer to our energy issues. It's going to take many other avenues to get closer, and it won't happen overnight. To say it's a scam is a crock of shit, and I don't agree, period.

    You said above that ethanol gets 30% less fuel mileage. Your statement above suggests 50% less fuel mileage? Which is it?
    Last edited by FasstChevys; 11-10-2006 at 09:55 AM.

  17. #17
    Senior Member FasstChevys's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    3,315

    White
    '10 ZR1

    Fuel mileage is different with any vehicle and is not 30% less with E85 compared with gasoline on a vehicle set up to burn both. Bullshit again Sarge.

  18. #18
    Senior Member 440 rwhp trans am's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    houston, tx
    Age
    33
    Posts
    2,045

    red ta orange gto
    97 trans am 06 gto

    Quote Originally Posted by FasstChevys View Post
    Ok Sarge, let's go toe to toe. I have facts and experience producing and using ethanol. What experience do you have? Let's talk about it.
    lol let him have it sarge! before he

  19. #19
    Senior Member FasstChevys's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    3,315

    White
    '10 ZR1

    Quote Originally Posted by 440 rwhp trans am View Post
    lol let him have it sarge! before he
    I'm ready, and have no reason to as you put it. To say that the thread starter is giving misinformation is like the pot calling the kettle black due to some of the responses so far.

    Example: Company car - 2003 Taurus Flex Fuel- gasoline fuel mileage - 21 mpg
    E85 mileage - 20 mpg

    If my math skill are working, that's a 4.76% reduction in fuel mileage in this instance. Do the math on the price, E85 is the winner when it's 40 cents a gallon cheaper.



    Saab 95 Turbo yields 20% BETTER fuel mileage using E85 as compared to gasoline.

    All facts.
    Last edited by FasstChevys; 11-10-2006 at 10:12 AM.

  20. #20
    Grand Imperial Wizard Sarge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Texas Department of Corrections
    Posts
    18,129
    Retired Outlaw Sum Bitch

    Quote Originally Posted by FasstChevys View Post
    Ok Sarge, let's go toe to toe. I have facts and experience producing and using ethanol.
    Sure....It is healthy and good for everybody to have mature rational discussion. This will be fun.....Maybe you can school this old man and maybe not...we'll see....OK....I see you have posted a few items....let me answer ...
    Last edited by mrr23; 11-11-2006 at 07:29 AM. Reason: fixed quote

Page 1 of 7 12345 ... LastLast

LinkBacks (?)

  1. 01-08-2017, 09:20 PM
  2. 03-04-2016, 09:02 PM
  3. 08-27-2014, 06:29 PM
  4. 08-16-2014, 06:40 AM
  5. 11-16-2013, 01:28 PM
  6. 09-20-2013, 08:56 PM
  7. 06-23-2013, 06:55 PM
  8. 05-07-2013, 11:05 AM
  9. 10-07-2012, 09:13 AM
  10. 04-26-2012, 10:42 AM
  11. 02-06-2012, 02:06 PM
  12. 01-18-2012, 01:13 PM
  13. 01-11-2012, 09:07 PM
  14. 12-14-2011, 06:51 PM
  15. 12-14-2011, 04:24 PM

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •