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Granatelli waste of money!!!!!

This is a discussion on Granatelli waste of money!!!!! within the External Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Originally Posted by Granatelli I took the reviews from the website - I could have hand picked a ton but ...

  1. #41
    Senior Member MadSeason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granatelli

    I took the reviews from the website - I could have hand picked a ton but I just took the last 3 that came in. It is not uncommon for autotrans cars to pick up torque big time with the meters. The tables (map) in the Auto trans cars are whimpy


    The only difference in the stock tables is that the table starts at 1,500hz, and goes up to 12,000hz on '99 and '00 cars, or 1,500 to 11,250hz on '97-'98 cars. Now, the actual tables used in 2001+ Z06 cars that come with these larger MAFs range from 750 to 12,000hz

    Manual and Auto Trans have nothing to do with the Tables in the computer



  2. #42
    Member Granatelli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadSeason
    So you're basically saying you're selling the same part as SLP that they sell for $180 but for an additional $100+ cost to your customer?

    It also amazes me that the Z06 Maf can be purchased with a harness for a 5pin to 3pin+2pin with the temp sensor at a price less than $130. Then the hotrodder can have the table put in by a tuner on a dyno who's going to be busting their balls over your resistor for the same price they're already paying for the tune.

    Granatelli Lower the price if you want more business
    Dude - you are confusing our 82mm MAF with 85mm. The 82mm is more money becuase it goes across the flow bench. The 85mm with the resistor does not. Hence it is less money. Like I said I am just offerring the info not looking for a fight. You are looking for trouble and using the wrong info compare the parts before you speak incorrectly

    Same as SLP version - not calibrated on a flow bench

    Each Meter is individually calibrated

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    "I have to say that this ride went from "real fast" to "I defy anybody to catch me from behind".

    From a lid, K&N and MAF.

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    Member Granatelli's Avatar
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    Basically you want to pick apart each word line by line What are you guys look at and trying to get to? Again we can agree to disagree but it is clear you either do not understand how airflow effects performance or you just want to take the post in a different direction. You are ruining it for the people that want to learn by making it a slamfest.

    I certainly do not need a lesson as to how the meters work. You are assuming the meter does nothing but output a frequency signal. It is what the ECM does with that info that you appear to not fully grasp. It is how the load tables are modified as they relate to the freq output

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    I have to say I noticed the part a lot on my 99' Z28. You just make sure you get the one with cold air tuning, and unhook your battery otherwise you will get spark knock like I did until I disconnected the battery for a day. Everything probably just kicked in how it is supposed to. Now not everyone is going to notice as huge of a gain as I did and it's just the characteristics of each car.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granatelli
    The meter allows the engine to ingest air with less restriction. PERIOD.
    This is just smoke and mirror's though, as you keep ignoring what is being said, repeatedly. Yes, the meter allows the engine to ingest air with less restriction over a stock MAF sensor, but only after a certain point. Put it this way, on an LS7 engine.... I'd choose a Granatelli MAF sensor, over a stock LS1 sensor any day of the week. But if we're talking stock LS1's w/bolt on's, then the Granatelli is a complete waste. PERIOD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Granatelli
    ...it is like breathing through a garden hose or a fire hose. Either way it is enough air but the fire hose is still better
    ... OMG, and you honestly had the nerve to question my anology? The stock LS1 heads can only take in so much air, and if the stock MAF is more than adequate, how is it that "you're" Granatelli MAF can possibly get more air into the engine's combustion chambers? Is it a magical MAF?
    Last edited by Street Lethal; 03-09-2006 at 03:54 PM.

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  8. #48
    Member Granatelli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Blown Vert
    As a reminder

    17. Sponsors bashing

    Our paying Sponsors deserve respect and restraint. Attacking a sponsor on the board is strictly prohibited.
    Thanks - I can handle myself. Everyone is entitled to speak their mind and I would hate to see a post pulled because I paid to have it done. Directly or indirectly.

    My point still stands

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    There have been lots of opinions on the effectiveness aftermarket MAF's on a stock or bolt on car, and it's nice to get both sides of the story here.

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    Member Granatelli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLOW346
    There have been lots of opinions on the effectiveness aftermarket MAF's on a stock or bolt on car, and it's nice to get both sides of the story here.
    I agree but we really only have 1 & 1/2 sides. We have my side that shows 8 to 10 hp increase and we have the other side that says their tuner could not make it work or it can not posible work on a stock engine...but no evidence to support it.

    Does anyone know what it takes to gain 10hp from the stock intake system?

    12.8cfm. That's all

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    Senior Member MadSeason's Avatar
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    Where do you get 12.8cfm? Also whats the curve to HP gain/ Additional CFM, there has to be a point where you're limited because doubling that doesn't mean you get 20HP, your units flow a lot more than 12.8cfm and produces dyno tested gains of 10HP on stock systems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Granatelli
    I went back to the track Friday with my stock MAF installed. I thought you'd be interested in knowing the results. The car was linearly slower without the GMS MAF sensor. The 60'was about 1/10 slower. It was about 2/10 slower at the 1/8th mile. And the 1/4 was about 3/10 & 3 mph slower. (13.50s @ 103 vs. 13.20s @ 106) The only real variable was the MAF. Other than that, the car had an identical setup.- M.G.
    What about outside temp? Tire pressure? Etc, etc......

  13. #53
    Member Granatelli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadSeason
    Where do you get 12.8cfm? Also whats the curve to HP gain/ Additional CFM, there has to be a point where you're limited because doubling that doesn't mean you get 20HP, your units flow a lot more than 12.8cfm and produces dyno tested gains of 10HP on stock systems.
    Rather then show all my cards at this point, tell us how many pounds of air equals 1 hp. X lbs Air = Y hp

    Then tell us How many CFM equals 1 hp

    Then of course X cfm = Y lbs.

    This is all simple math and this is exactly how a restrictor plate motor works. When NASCAR wanted to slow down the race cars they knew that everyone was going to cheat so they said install this plate between the carb and manifold. Now we don’t care what you do above or below the plate because the plate dictates airflow. (Naturally there are other rules but the plate is the real determining factor).

    The MAF works the same way. The fact that a stock MAF can flow the air does not mean it can flow it as easy (pressure drop across the meter) and that means the car with the GMS MAF can “ramp” or accelerate quicker because it can breath easier.

    I will be happy to give you the answer but since you are taking the postion that you speak from fact and not opinion, I was hoping you could tell me why I am wrong rather then just saying
    "you're limited because doubling that doesn't mean you get 20HP"

  14. #54
    Senior Member MadSeason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granatelli
    Rather then show all my cards at this point, tell us how many pounds of air equals 1 hp. X lbs Air = Y hp

    Then tell us How many CFM equals 1 hp

    Then of course X cfm = Y lbs.

    This is all simple math and this is exactly how a restrictor plate motor works. When NASCAR wanted to slow down the race cars they knew that everyone was going to cheat so they said install this plate between the carb and manifold. Now we don’t care what you do above or below the plate because the plate dictates airflow. (Naturally there are other rules but the plate is the real determining factor).

    The MAF works the same way. The fact that a stock MAF can flow the air does not mean it can flow it as easy (pressure drop across the meter) and that means the car with the GMS MAF can “ramp” or accelerate quicker because it can breath easier.

    I will be happy to give you the answer but since you are taking the postion that you speak from fact and not opinion, I was hoping you could tell me why I am wrong rather then just saying
    "you're limited because doubling that doesn't mean you get 20HP"
    I'm having trouble grasping your NASCAR analogy simply because the throttle body on a stock application is smaller than your MAF, making that the restriction which needs to be opened up, not the at MAF. Now in a 90/90 setup the coin is flipped and it will help no doubt as with a boost application. Nascar creats a restriction at 29/32nds and is estimated to be about a 300HP loss, you're talking about 10HP gain. Similar concepts, but a drastic difference.

    There is no right answer for your equation for how much CFM and Pounds of air = HP, you must also factor in Temperature and pressure for the Air Density. Even at SAE the number is going to vary by the factors inside the motor such as the cam, S&D compression, octaine, timing..... Ask anyone who runs boost, no two identical boost Settings are going to gain the same about of power unless the rest of the setup is identical. Different cams and setups people customize to their tastes make different power. I simply can't give you an answer.

    Now I personally will be going with a 90/90 setup and will want a bigger MAF here by the end of June and as early as mid April. I'm going to go with the 85MM Z06 Maf and program in the tables during the dyno tune, going that route will cost me roughly 60 dollars for the MAF and $20 for a harness, the tables will be included with the dyno. Now against your expensive calibrated MAF which is only 82mm as you stated previously. If I were to purchase that MAF, test it during the dyno to see which setup is better, what is your return policy if I am not satisfied with the results?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadSeason

    There is no right answer for your equation for how much CFM and Pounds of air = HP, you must also factor in Temperature and pressure for the Air Density. Even at SAE the number is going to vary by the factors inside the motor such as the cam, S&D compression, octaine, timing..... .
    6lbs of air is equal to 1 hp. Temp and Air Density automatically factor in because the density (mass of air) changes and the MAF captures that. This is the main reason the factory went from think film MAF to "hot wire" design and again this is why they integrated the air temp sensor into the 85MM style meter. Cam changes (like overlap) can alter the airflow reading but we are talking about 1 change at a time. So if you are talking about a meter change and then a back up dyno pull, then with no other changes 12.8 cfm is 8hp increase.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadSeason
    Ask anyone who runs boost, no two identical boost Settings are going to gain the same about of power unless the rest of the setup is identical. Different cams and setups people customize to their tastes make different power. I simply can't give you an answer.
    I guess I can ask myself that question. You are preaching to the choir as I ran Paxton Superchargers from 1983 to 1990. In 1990 I became the owner and I am credited as the designer and creater of the Novi 2000 supercharger, the first and only 50 state legal supercharger to support 1000hp. I am fully aware how what boost does, can do and will do...especially as it relates to the MAF's

    Quote Originally Posted by MadSeason
    Now I personally will be going with a 90/90 setup and will want a bigger MAF here by the end of June and as early as mid April. I'm going to go with the 85MM Z06 Maf and program in the tables during the dyno tune, going that route will cost me roughly 60 dollars for the MAF and $20 for a harness, the tables will be included with the dyno. Now against your expensive calibrated MAF which is only 82mm as you stated previously. If I were to purchase that MAF, test it during the dyno to see which setup is better, what is your return policy if I am not satisfied with the results?
    We offer a money back guarantee - always have

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    Wow ! You kick ass evil Cartman !

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    I have had a GMS on my car for four years and have never had a problem with it. Oh I did notice a small difference after the install...

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    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Blown Vert
    Our paying Sponsors deserve respect and restraint. Attacking a sponsor on the board is strictly prohibited.
    I'm not attacking any sponsor, I'm just trying to have a logical conversation with one. Yes, paying sponsors have the right to have their messages both heard and respected... but then again, so do the paying LS1.com members who purchase their products.

    The Mass Air Flow debate has been a very heated one for quite sometime now. I for one believe that by keeping the stock MAF (which can always be ported), while recalibrating the PCM for a leaner WOT, is ultimately the best way to go. It's just my humble opinion, and hopefully I'm entitled to one...

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    This is the thing that confuses me.

    Lid-usual 10 hp gain-$90
    Cutout-usual 10 hp gain-less then $75 welded in
    FREE RAM AIR mod...FREE..usually good for a 6-10 hp jump specially up top at highway speeds....FREE

    GMAF...claimed 10 hp....$280? Why so much? $280 gets you uncoated headers and a nice 20-25 hp gain for the same price. I agree with above that the $280 is overcharging your customers just a bit too much, especially for something that comes with questions about it's gains.

    Keep this thread UNLOCKED because of the simple fact that it is good for both sides of this eternal argument to get their sides out and on the table for everyone to read. Specially when it is the sponsor directly responding to the detractors.

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    member since may 2000 nhraformula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granatelli
    If you install a Granatelli MAF and loose power, you’re doing something wrong. Allowing the engine to breath better can never be a bad thing.

    Every Granatelli Meter goes across our flow bench and they are measured for accuracy and consistency.

    I get a kick when I read these posts that start out like this, “my friend said” or “my tuner said to take the Granatelli meter off because he can’t tune for it”

    If your tuner or calibration person can’t tune your car with the meter installed then he needs a new job. One thing is for sure every Granatelli meter outputs the same so if they are off – they are all off the exact same amount – that means a tuner should be able to tune for it if they know what they are doing.

    In 1998 when we first gained popularity on LT1 meters, we were the mod of choice. Then, the LS1 guys were all over it. When the Chip tuners started touting their virtues the meters started to take a hit. Chip tuners said they could tune for the ported meter and said why give Granatelli your money when you can give it to them.

    Well all of you that want a simple bolt on and don’t want to spend all day on the dyno, the Granatelli meter is the perfect bolt on.

    I agree with the proper tuning, a ported meter



    will work just as well. That is why we offer the housings

    We introduced the 85mm MAF for the F-body. SLP was quick to copy our part and several of you were quick to jump on the SLP meter. Some said they made more power with the SLP. That is like saying your car runs faster with blue paint instead of black paint. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE. LOL!






    Bottom line we have the right part for you. Plain ported meters or perfectly calibrated. We are here to help - bashers and all

    i put on one of youre units a few years ago.
    ses light comes on and i get pinging.

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