Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 35 of 35

160 thermo vs 180 thermo vs stock?

This is a discussion on 160 thermo vs 180 thermo vs stock? within the External Engine forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Still having a little bit of trouble with this site, but let's see if this posts correctly. Originally Posted by ...

  1. #21
    Member Fran D's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Washington Crossing, PA
    Posts
    131
    Still having a little bit of trouble with this site, but let's see if this posts correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal View Post
    You can obviously use it any way you'd like, ...
    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal View Post
    but it doesn't change the fact that you didn't include when I added "re-setting the stock fan settings" being needed to realize any difference with a 160 thermo, only for you to then embellish on how you're settings were in fact altered...

    In fact, to quote part of you're arguement; "I've only moved the fan settings by 20F", this is exactly what I'm referring to. This is what would be needed to realize the benefit of a 160 degree thermostat. Keeping the fan settings at the 215 'stock' trigger point would be a complete waste of one's time.
    Once again, you've mixed propositions that are at odds with one another. You have declared an absolute, fan settings MUST be changed to realize ANY benefit. I have provided a conditional based on observation, there EXISTS a difference at cruise, regardless of fan settings (even if I had set them to 300F!). The absolute case, therefore, fails.

    I do not discount that the maximum benefit is achieved by changing fan settings (as I have done.), I only have an objection to the absolute proposition. If you can't see the difference between an absolute and conditional statement, then, well, I guess there's nothing more to be said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal View Post
    Sure about that?
    Yes.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Old Bridge "Raceway Park" N.J.
    Posts
    1,249
    2009 Corvette ZO6

    Quote Originally Posted by Fran D
    I only have an objection to the absolute proposition. If you can't see the difference between an absolute and conditional statement, then, well, I guess there's nothing more to be said.
    Quite content there aren't you, in getting you're point (?) across. You seem to rather enjoy trying to make something simple, into something a little more complicated to justify such a ridiculous arguement on you're behalf.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fran D
    Yes.
    Well, you're wrong then.

    Ya got an "A" for effort though...

  3. #23
    Member Fran D's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Washington Crossing, PA
    Posts
    131
    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal View Post
    Quite content there aren't you, in getting you're point (?) across. You seem to rather enjoy trying to make something simple, into something a little more complicated to justify such a ridiculous arguement on you're behalf.
    Ibid.


    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal View Post
    Well, you're wrong then.
    How so?

    By the way, I seem to be having a great deal of difficulty in using the Reply to Thread editing box with this website (and it only seems to be this website, other vBulletin sites appear to work fine). Even though I have HTML code OFF, I get nothing but HTML in the editor window. Also, random icons don't appear and are replaced by the red x box. Is anyone having the same problems?

  4. #24
    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Old Bridge "Raceway Park" N.J.
    Posts
    1,249
    2009 Corvette ZO6

    Quote Originally Posted by Fran D
    How so?
    You will hear it from many tuner's that when you switch over to a 160 degree thermostat, that they are just warm enough to get you up over Closed Loop Enable Temp and into Normal Fueling. Although the manual states 92/93 degrees being the set point in which Closed Loop is set to begin, you'll find otherwise when you go in to raise set temperature when tuning for Open Loop mode only. My factory Closed Loop Enable Temp setting was 156 degrees on my Z28 (manual says the same thing for Third Generation F-Body's as well), in which was then raised to 250 to maintain my desired Open Loop constant...

  5. #25
    Member Fran D's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Washington Crossing, PA
    Posts
    131
    Hope this posts correctly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal View Post
    ...Although the manual states 92/93 degrees being the set point in which Closed Loop is set to begin, you'll find otherwise when you go in to raise set temperature when tuning for Open Loop mode only. My factory Closed Loop Enable Temp setting was 156 degrees on my Z28 (manual says the same thing for Third Generation F-Body's as well), in which was then raised to 250 to maintain my desired Open Loop constant...
    Interesting, but the stock tuning that I pulled down from the car ('00 SS) shows the Closed Loop transition at ~93F. This is also confirmed by the fact that the car transitions out of FTC 22 around this temperature during warm-up. These are real measurements, not conjecture.

    Also, I'm not sure why anyone would wish to extend the Open Loop transition point. What benefit exists there? I'm wondering if there is some confusion with regard to the Closed Loop Enable Temp and the LTFT Learn Enable, since the latter occurs closer to 150F.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Old Bridge "Raceway Park" N.J.
    Posts
    1,249
    2009 Corvette ZO6

    Quote Originally Posted by Fran D
    I'm wondering if there is some confusion with regard to the Closed Loop Enable Temp and the LTFT Learn Enable, since the latter occurs closer to 150F.
    For those who are following along, there are basically two modes in which allow and engine to adapt to short, and long term changes; STFT (short term fuel trim), and LTFT (long term fuel trim). In CL (closed loop), the O2 sensors make fine adjustments to the SD (speed density) tables. STFT stores these corrections, and when continued for several hours, LTFT is adjusted to incorporate such changes.

    With these two trim tables, the computer can maintain its estimated SD fuel corrections when the system goes out of closed loop, and into open loop, in turn reducing emissions during open loop configuration....

    Getting back to the original topic though, of installing a 160 degree thermostat, and the possibility of it throwing the ECM back into Open Loop mode. If we go by what Fran is trying to point out, the latter of his arguement, LTFT Learn Enable being closer to the 15x temperature mark.... exactly what would happen if the engine temperature sensor suddenly reached 150 degrees during cruise (during closed loop)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fran D
    Also, I'm not sure why anyone would wish to extend the Open Loop transition point. What benefit exists there?
    My narrow band O2 sensor was not correctly adjusting my BLM's, plus, I've since come to the agreement with a few others that Closed Loop caters mainly to the catalytic converter... which I no longer run in my Z28.

  7. #27
    Member Fran D's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Washington Crossing, PA
    Posts
    131
    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal View Post
    .... exactly what would happen if the engine temperature sensor suddenly reached 150 degrees during cruise (during closed loop)?
    I'm not sure if I understood this question correctly. Do you mean fall back to 150F after being at some other, higher level? If that is the case, and if 150F represents the transition temperature for LTFT Learn Enable, from what I have previously logged I would expect to see the LTFT Learn Enable PID at DISABLE below that temperature and ENABLE at that temperature or above (while in CL).

    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal View Post
    My narrow band O2 sensor was not correctly adjusting my BLM's, plus, I've since come to the agreement with a few others that Closed Loop caters mainly to the catalytic converter... which I no longer run in my Z28.
    Well...CL caters to fuel mileage and emissions, of which the cats play a role in the latter. I don't see the removal of the cats obviating the need for CL.

  8. #28
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Age
    35
    Posts
    13

    white
    1999 Z28

    Get a tune

  9. #29
    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Old Bridge "Raceway Park" N.J.
    Posts
    1,249
    2009 Corvette ZO6

    Quote Originally Posted by Fran D
    I don't see the removal of the cats obviating the need for CL.
    CL averages a 14.7 AFR, whereas my OL tune runs a 14.7 AFR...

    I'll get back to the reasoning behind the question regarding the STFT/LTFT scenario in a bit...

  10. #30
    Member Fran D's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Washington Crossing, PA
    Posts
    131
    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal View Post
    CL averages a 14.7 AFR, whereas my OL tune runs a 14.7 AFR...
    Really? You have set the CL Enable Temperature well above your operating temperature so that you never enter CL? Well, I have to admit, I find that surprising. So, you never transition into FTCs 1-14?

    By the way, I looked back at my logs and found that the Learn Enable transition temperature is 149F...for what it's worth.

  11. #31
    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Old Bridge "Raceway Park" N.J.
    Posts
    1,249
    2009 Corvette ZO6

    Sorry for the delayed response, traffic getting home was a complete mess...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fran D
    Really? You have set the CL Enable Temperature well above your operating temperature so that you never enter CL? Well, I have to admit, I find that surprising. So, you never transition into FTCs 1-14?
    The stock engine was an LG4 (cc-carbed 305), and the engine management system didn't really have that much say in reference to fueling events. After swapping to the 454, I decided to take advantage of the stock ECM's ESC (Electronic Spark Control), as opposed to swapping to the more traditional vacuum advance distributor. Works flawlessly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fran D
    By the way, I looked back at my logs and found that the Learn Enable transition temperature is 149F...for what it's worth.
    Getting back to the original point of where I was headed with that question, I re-read what I asked... and seen that I wasn't as elaborate as I should have been. My point was, the term "Closed Loop" is not simply just one occurrence. It's based on a variety of different sensor readings in order for it to function properly (in a whole, "fully" that is), and some of these sensor readings do not transmit until a certain temperature is realized...

    On a typical stock ECM PROM, although Closed Loop is set to "activate" (or for a better word, prepare) itself for incoming readings, at a set temperature (lets say between 90 - 100 degrees), the following criteria still must be met;

    ARAP Closed-Loop Operation Parameters

    CTS < 14.7C (58F) for 75 seconds;
    CTS >14.7 (58F) and < 40.7 (105F) for 51.4 seconds;
    CTS >40.7C (105F) for 12.5 seconds;
    O2 >0.699V & O2<1.99V for 10 seconds;


    Coolant Temperature Sensor Related Parameters

    BLM enabled between 50C (122F) and 140C (284F)
    Cold spark advance disabled above 56C (133F)
    Hot spark retard begins above 116C (240F)
    Highway Mode spark advance > 59.8C (140F)
    Knock sensor disabled below 66.5C (152F)
    Power enrichment at base A/F ratios > 56C (133F)
    Target IAC idle RPM >80C (176F)
    IAC multiplier at 1.0 (base) > 32C (90F)
    Knock Control enabled > 67C (153F)
    EGR Duty-cycle enabled at 56C (133F)
    EGR Duty-cycle at MAX >80C (176F)
    TCC lockup enabled >50C (122F)
    SHIFT light enabled >50C (122F)
    Diagnostic communication enabled at 70C (157F)
    DTC 43 enabled > 90C (194F)
    Cooling fan #1 enabled at 107C (226F)
    Cooling fan #1 off at 104.7C (220.5F)
    Cooling fan #2 enabled at 115.2C (239.5F)
    Cooling fan #2 off at 110C (230F)
    Cooling fan duty cycle at 100% at 80C (176F)
    Acceleration enrichment multiplier at 1.00 below 80 C (176F)
    Acceleration enrichment multiplier at 0.75 above 80 C (176F)
    Acceleration enrichment multiplier at 0.50 above 104C (220F)
    Acceleration enrichment decay factor at 25% below 80 C (176F)
    Acceleration enrichment decay factor at 40% above 80 C (176F)
    Acceleration enrichment decay factor at 50% above 104 C (220F)
    Acceleration enrichment decay factor at 60% above 128 C (262F)
    Fuel limiting factor timer at 217 counts below 80 C (176F)
    Fuel limiting factor timer at 169 counts above 80 C (176F)
    Code 13 (oxygen sensor fault) enabled above 70C (157F)
    Code 14 (CTS high fault) enabled above 130C (266F)
    Code 32 (EGR fault) enabled above 30.5C (87F)
    EVAP canister purge enabled above 70.3C (158.5F)
    Hot closed-loop timer enabled above 70.3C (158.5F)
    Rich/Lean O2 offest at 16 counts between 20C (68F) and 92C (197.5F)
    A/C clutch disabled above 150C (302F)


    Special thanks goes out to Vader, in which obtained this information many many "moons" (pun intended) ago....

  12. #32
    Member Fran D's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Washington Crossing, PA
    Posts
    131
    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal View Post
    The stock engine was an LG4 (cc-carbed 305), and the engine management system didn't really have that much say in reference to fueling events. After swapping to the 454, I decided to take advantage of the stock ECM's ESC (Electronic Spark Control), as opposed to swapping to the more traditional vacuum advance distributor. Works flawlessly.
    I take it back then. I'm not that surprised. This is a completely different animal than what I was thinking of. Just out of curiosity, how does this relate to the discussion we were having on the p52 controller?

    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal View Post
    Getting back to the original point of where I was headed with that question, I re-read what I asked... and seen that I wasn't as elaborate as I should have been. My point was, the term &quot;Closed Loop&quot; is not simply just one occurrence. It's based on a variety of different sensor readings in order for it to function properly (in a whole, &quot;fully&quot; that is), and some of these sensor readings do not transmit until a certain temperature is realized...
    No disagreement there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Street Lethal View Post
    On a typical stock ECM PROM, although Closed Loop is set to &quot;activate&quot; (or for a better word, prepare) itself for incoming readings, at a set temperature (lets say between 90 - 100 degrees), the following criteria still must be met; (list omitted for brevity)
    Given all that, then, how am I wrong in stating that my stock CL enable transition temperature is ~93F?

  13. #33
    Senior Member Street Lethal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Old Bridge "Raceway Park" N.J.
    Posts
    1,249
    2009 Corvette ZO6

    See sig...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fran D View Post
    Given all that, then, how am I wrong in stating that my stock CL enable transition temperature is ~93F?
    Then I apologize then, you are not wrong by that statement, I honestly misunderstood. To be quite honest here, I guess it's safe to say that by installing a 160 degree thermostat (without altering certain trigger points), the PCM won't necessarily get thrown out of Closed Loop, but it might just very well throw it (the PCM) FOR a loop.
    Last edited by Street Lethal; 06-27-2006 at 04:16 PM.

  14. #34
    Member Fran D's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Washington Crossing, PA
    Posts
    131
    You're a good friend of the sport.

  15. #35
    Junior Member JJBones's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nv
    Posts
    26

    Black
    99 Z28

    Ok..I have read this complete thread. Lot of good information.

    I just moved to Las Vegas. No need to tell you all how HOT is get here and there is always lots of traffic. So based on what I have read.

    - I am keeping the 195 F thermostat. ( I may travel to the Utah mountains in the Winter time or maybe Lake Tahoe.
    - Adding a SLP or Thunder Racing remote fan switch to use in heavy traffic if needed.

    So far the system is working fine ( new waterpump)...but I would like that safey margin.

    Engine is stock except for Loud Mouth Exhaust, Cold Air Induction and a few brake and supension mods.

    ....or have I been in the Sun too long ????

    Any remarks or suggestion will be appreciated. ....JJBones in HOT LV

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. 160 thermo
    By jakez28 in forum Camaro / SS
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-11-2010, 01:10 PM
  2. 160 degree thermo.? is it worth it?
    By 2fast4u_99 in forum General Help
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 09-22-2007, 04:01 PM
  3. need thermo help to understand ping
    By predator in forum Almost Anything Goes
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 08-02-2007, 07:21 AM
  4. Thermo Quiet Pads FS
    By rdtce in forum Parts For Sale / Trade
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 06-18-2007, 09:08 PM
  5. 160 thermo
    By jcot72 in forum General Help
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: 11-25-2005, 03:32 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •