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Thinking about an LS3

This is a discussion on Thinking about an LS3 within the General Help forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; Well, like we were saying earlier, I don't really care what the 1/4-mile time would be, since a "true" time ...

  1. #161
    Senior Member Naaman's Avatar
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    Well, like we were saying earlier,

    I don't really care what the 1/4-mile time would be, since a "true" time is supposed to take things like high rpm clutch drops and 60-foot times into consideration. Those are measurements that I just don't care to subject my car to.

    What I can say is that, in 1st gear, snap throttle acceleration always spins the tires since the heads/cam went on. But it's not a noisy, screechy, smoke-producing spin. I can't even hear it. I just feel the car not accelerating, despite the RPMs climbing. Once it gets to 5000, the tires tend to hook, and there is a sudden surge of power, but at that point, I'm usually just getting ready to upshift.

    As for just tooling around, the car is fine. But my tires are near the end of their tread life, so I suspect that fresh rubber will make the difference.
    Though I'd still probably be timid with the throttle for the sake of my 10-bolt. A rolling start is mandatory, and snap-throttle will be rare until I can get that 12-bolt.

    In those brief moments when I do get some kind of traction, there is a HUGE difference in the forward thrust of the car. Other than that, for all practical-use purposes, the net result is actually a slower car. As I get more familiar, that will change. I'd also like to beef up the breaks, to give me a bit more confidence about reigning in the power and speed.

  2. #162
    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    If you can't hear the tires spinning and your RPM'S are climbing, how do you know it's not your clutch slipping and then finally grabbing? Just wondering.
    It's on jackstands.

  3. #163
    Senior Member raynor139's Avatar
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    I'd be worried about the clutch in this case too. I would think if your spinning up to 5k you would hear the tires. Do you smell anything after it finally catches?
    Mods - Lid, Skip Shift Eliminator, MGW shifter, UMI SFCs, Founders Lower Control Arms, Founders Panhard Bar, Founders Adj. Torque Arm, UMI Torque arm mount, MWC Drive shaft safety loop, KONI Yellows, Strano Springs, Strano Sway bars, UMI Upper and lower A Arms, 160 thermostat, TSP headers and TSP true duals Monster stage 2 clutch, racetronix fuel pump, Strange S60 rear axle and tune by Frost.

  4. #164
    Senior Member Naaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 35th-ANV-SS View Post
    If you can't hear the tires spinning and your RPM'S are climbing, how do you know it's not your clutch slipping and then finally grabbing? Just wondering.
    Quote Originally Posted by raynor139 View Post
    I'd be worried about the clutch in this case too. I would think if your spinning up to 5k you would hear the tires. Do you smell anything after it finally catches?
    No I don't. But I can feel the tail wagging a little bit sometimes. I suppose it could be the clutch. I haven't really done any WOT, but I have gone to about 1/2 - 3/4 of gradual application (and by "gradual" I simply mean "not all at once").
    Last edited by Naaman; 03-05-2015 at 04:23 PM.
    Lid, Throttle Body, LS6 Intake, Heads, Cam, Magnaflow, LS7 Clutch, SFCs, STB, Panhard Bar, Strano Springs, Hollow Sway Bars, Poly/Roto LCAs, Konis, MGW Shifter

  5. #165
    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    I only brought it up because you also mentioned grinding when shifting and it's possible the two are related to one another. Not necessarily, but possible. I would think you'd hear the tires though if they were losing traction. Again, just speculation.

  6. #166
    Senior Member Naaman's Avatar
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    Yeah, I appreciate it. It didn't even occur to me that it might be the clutch, but, when I think about it, it makes sense: if a drive train component isn't engaged, then it cannot transmit power properly.

    I heard back from Sean today. He says not to worry about it for the first 500 miles. Just drive it gently.
    Last edited by Naaman; 03-05-2015 at 04:24 PM.

  7. #167
    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    I'd agree there's a break-in period of 500 miles on a clutch. I installed the Spec Stage 3+ on mine which is much more aggressive and followed the same instructions. It chattered slightly, but after I got aggressive with it, that stopped lol.

  8. #168
    Member RONS98TA's Avatar
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    I would wait until after the 500 mile break in period has passed. Which in my case would probably in about 2 days time. If I hadn't had my toy for a period of time, then got a pretty significant amount of work done to it, I would be in that sucker driving everywhere! LOL After said break in period occurs, how about trying to do another launch and have a buddy watch your tires to see if they are spinning or not? It should be pretty easy to hear the motor rev up and be able to tell if its the clutch or not.

  9. #169
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Since our cars are making nearly identical RWHP numbers, your descriptions sound pretty much like my wifes car.

    When we had the 3.42's in it, and new tires, I could roll into the throttle quickly in first gear and it would 9 times out of 10 just hook and go as long as the road conditions were good (ie: not dusty/dirty) Snapping second gear and popping the clutch however would induce fishtailing and wheel spin.
    As the tires aged over a period of a few years that changed. In some instances jumping in the throttle in first gear without popping the clutch could induce wheel spin, sometimes not expecting it but the car was very managable, easy to drive, predictable, and just didn't make quite enough power to do anything stupid or unexpected. You could tell however the tires were getting old.

    That all changed with just a simple rear gear change. Now with the 12 bolt and 3.73 gear, any full throttle run in first gear will induce copious amounts of wheel spin without popping the clutch, whether I had new tires on it or not. Doesn't sound like much of a gear change but it sure did make that engine happy. I can snap the throttle rolling in first gear and induce wheel spin at will. Some instances it happens so quickly that I'm on the rev limiter (6700) before I can snap the next gear. Funny how a mild gear change completely changes the attitude of a car. Aggressive driving now has to be cautiously done. If accelerating up to speed needs to be done in a hurry, gotta be a little more gentle on the throttle now and make sure you have the car pointing straight. It actually takes off in second gear from a stop fairly easy now. Overall, it's made the car much more fun to drive in my opinion and was a worthwhile upgrade.
    Had 4.10's in it for a while too, Boy was that fun!

  10. #170
    Member RONS98TA's Avatar
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    If I had a 6 speed, I would def upgrade to a 9 inch with 410 gears.. I think overall, that is the best gear for fuel milage and 1/4 mile times. Obviously, there are better gears for fuel milage, and there are better gears for track times, BUT a happy medium is 410. Just my 2 cents.

  11. #171
    Senior Member Naaman's Avatar
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    I am curious about a steeper gear ratio... I wish I could try it before I buy it, but with a rear end costing $2500, and me being happy with my 3.42s, I'm reluctant to do something that would be expensive to reverse. In any case, that is a long way off, so for now, I'm rocking the 3.42s

    I've been driving around town the last few nights and there seems to be less grinding and slippage (like Jon was saying) as I have been doing a lot of stopping and starting.

    I'm still a little scared to go full throttle, though.

  12. #172
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    I can tell you from my own experience, I didn't like the 4.10's with the 6-speed that much.

    The one complaint I had was the 2.66 first gear, the car barely moves and you're looking for second. Don't get me wrong, it was fun, and for a toy car or weekend fun, it's great, but for day in and day out driving, it got old. If the trans had a more manageable 2.20 first gear or there-abouts, I would have been much happier.

    The other complaint came from my wife. With 3.42's it was nothing to knock down 30 mpg. The 4.10's immediately dropped that to 24 mpg at best. She was driving 200 miles round trip every day to work, so that just wasn't going to get the job done. I ended up switching to 3.73's and the mileage picked up to 27-ish for her commute, that was acceptable. So yeah, the gears have a pretty big impact on mileage when you're trying to keep up with traffic on the I-17 where the speed limit is 75mph and 80-85 is the norm.

    3.73's were a very happy medium. I like the spunk it gave the car, it went from mundane acceleration in first gear to a tire frier that fishtails when you simply push the throttle down, yet it drives around town nicely, I can still lug the engine in 6th gear at 30-35 mph easily so I'm not hunting for gears all the time, and it allows very little effort to get rolling from a stop without needing to slip the clutch, and at the same time 1st gear is now long enough that I can at least get through an intersection before looking at the next gear. In town driving the car still knocks down 21 mpg in stop and go traffic, repeatable on every fill up.

    I have no qualms running the 12 bolt behind the 6 speed either. With 33 spline axles and an 8.875 ring gear, it's not going to break I see more output shafts snap on the 6 speeds than I see 12 bolts break. If I were abusing this car, at this point I'd be more worried about the transmission.

    Naaman, for a daily commuter I personally wouldn't go more than 3.73's. I just didn't care for the 3.42's myself once you start installing a camshaft and changing the power band. First gear was a bit sluggish to me and I didn't like waiting for the engine to come to life. When I crossed the finish line in 3rd I knew the car needed a gear badly
    If that doesn't bother you, then leaving the 3.42's in there works fine.

  13. #173
    Exalted Cyclops 67CamaroRSSS's Avatar
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    FWIW, even though my car has been put back to stock (by Sean) it still has SFC's and a built (by Sean) tranny. Although it's an A4 I can nail it at 15 or so and it drops to 1st, spins the tires and jumps like a raped ape. I miss having the torque arm though as it has major wheel hop at WOT off the line. I now have an SLP lid (it works with the AIR - the MTI doesn't) with an opened bottom and SLP smooth bellows. I really miss having the supporting mods, especially the LT's and Magnaflows. OTOH, it can pass Cali smog (visually, 25 and 40 mph dyno)...

    FWIW, I found Sean to be the most honest guy I've ever dealt with (from a mechanics standpoint - hell, from a human standpoint). I remember him calling me one day after I picked up my car to let me know that he'd overcharged me by $.37. He even looked at my Vette when I was in town last December and didn't charge me for putting it in the air to check things out.

    Tell him Jim Blake says "Hi!" next time you talk to him.

    Also, Hi Larry! Long time no see...
    67 Camaro: K-K + 797-z (look it up), 454/Th400/4.10 12-bolt = 6mpg, PS/PDB/PW tilt, tach, gauges...

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    2002 Z28: NBM/Tan, MTI smooth lid, smooth bellows, !AIR, !cats, 1-3/4" QTP SS LT's, 2-1/2" TD's with X-pipe, MagnaFlows dumped at axle, custom welded SFC's, MidWest Chassis body mount adjustable T/A, 3400 stall, 3.23 gears (was 2.73). Tuned: 343rwhp/357rwt (before TD's). Best: 12.559 @ 108+, 1.73 60' @ 3500' DA w/MT ET Street DR's.

    Carbon footprint? CLOWN SHOE!

  14. #174
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 67CamaroRSSS View Post
    FWIW, even though my car has been put back to stock (by Sean) it still has SFC's and a built (by Sean) tranny. Although it's an A4 I can nail it at 15 or so and it drops to 1st, spins the tires and jumps like a raped ape. I miss having the torque arm though as it has major wheel hop at WOT off the line. I now have an SLP lid (it works with the AIR - the MTI doesn't) with an opened bottom and SLP smooth bellows. I really miss having the supporting mods, especially the LT's and Magnaflows. OTOH, it can pass Cali smog (visually, 25 and 40 mph dyno)...

    FWIW, I found Sean to be the most honest guy I've ever dealt with (from a mechanics standpoint - hell, from a human standpoint). I remember him calling me one day after I picked up my car to let me know that he'd overcharged me by $.37. He even looked at my Vette when I was in town last December and didn't charge me for putting it in the air to check things out.

    Tell him Jim Blake says "Hi!" next time you talk to him.

    Also, Hi Larry! Long time no see...
    I also believe Sean is top notch and honest. I wouldn't hesitate to use his services.

    Jim,,,,is that really you?? Where the hell have you been? Hey you might get a kick out of this, my wife is planning to drive that ole 1st gen daily. Guess I'll have to blow the cobwebs out of that, literally.

  15. #175
    Senior Member Naaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    I can tell you from my own experience, I didn't like the 4.10's with the 6-speed that much.

    The one complaint I had was the 2.66 first gear, the car barely moves and you're looking for second. Don't get me wrong, it was fun, and for a toy car or weekend fun, it's great, but for day in and day out driving, it got old. If the trans had a more manageable 2.20 first gear or there-abouts, I would have been much happier.

    The other complaint came from my wife. With 3.42's it was nothing to knock down 30 mpg. The 4.10's immediately dropped that to 24 mpg at best. She was driving 200 miles round trip every day to work, so that just wasn't going to get the job done. I ended up switching to 3.73's and the mileage picked up to 27-ish for her commute, that was acceptable. So yeah, the gears have a pretty big impact on mileage when you're trying to keep up with traffic on the I-17 where the speed limit is 75mph and 80-85 is the norm.

    3.73's were a very happy medium. I like the spunk it gave the car, it went from mundane acceleration in first gear to a tire frier that fishtails when you simply push the throttle down, yet it drives around town nicely, I can still lug the engine in 6th gear at 30-35 mph easily so I'm not hunting for gears all the time, and it allows very little effort to get rolling from a stop without needing to slip the clutch, and at the same time 1st gear is now long enough that I can at least get through an intersection before looking at the next gear. In town driving the car still knocks down 21 mpg in stop and go traffic, repeatable on every fill up.

    I have no qualms running the 12 bolt behind the 6 speed either. With 33 spline axles and an 8.875 ring gear, it's not going to break I see more output shafts snap on the 6 speeds than I see 12 bolts break. If I were abusing this car, at this point I'd be more worried about the transmission.

    Naaman, for a daily commuter I personally wouldn't go more than 3.73's. I just didn't care for the 3.42's myself once you start installing a camshaft and changing the power band. First gear was a bit sluggish to me and I didn't like waiting for the engine to come to life. When I crossed the finish line in 3rd I knew the car needed a gear badly
    If that doesn't bother you, then leaving the 3.42's in there works fine.
    Your car must be better than mine if you're getting 27 mpg combined. On the other hand, I do drive with the top down every day. I suspect this increases drag quite a bit as compared to a coupe. The way I've been driving the last couple of weeks, though, I have only put about 12-14 miles per day, and 90% of that is in-town (deliberately trying to break in the clutch). I've just passed the 1/2 tank marker, and only went 156 miles. Normally, when the needle is where it's at now, I'll see about 230 miles on my trip odo.

    As for 6th gear, I feel no difference (despite the additional torque) compared to the stock engine (torque might even be less below 2000 rpm, now, though). I remember watching a video review on youtube where a guy took a 2nd gen Viper for a drive and he said that the T56's 6th gear was totally useless (other than for an OD, of course): the car absolutely did not accelerate worth a darn. Personally, though, I like it that way.

    As for 1st being too sluggish, 2.66 is rather tall, especially with a 3.42 in the back (compared to other cars). But the way my car is now, 1st gear pulls so much stronger from 2500 on up (similar power band to what stock was) that it gives me that feeling in my gut like being on a roller coaster that suddenly drops or accelerates hard (the good feeling, not a sick-to-my-stomach feeling) . The old set up didn't even come close to doing that. It's all relative, I guess. The clutch still isn't ready for any high rpm shifts, though, so I only get little bursts of single gear acceleration to play with. 2nd gear is nothing special, but I haven't played with it much, other than on freeway on ramps. I also haven't explored beyond 5500, so not sure what it will be like if I take 1st all the way to, say, 6500 before reaching for 2nd. With the old set up, 2nd felt good so long as I took 1st up to the redline.

    I am curious about the 3.73s... I just don't want a bunch of wheel spin. Maybe when I do a 12-bolt, the 3.73s will be worthwhile if I can get a wide enough, sticky enough tire. Also, I'm anticipating a further drop in bottom-end torque whenever I get long tubes, pushing the power band higher. This is a trade-off I may not be willing to make (might go for shorties, for example), since one of the things I enjoy about the car is the instant acceleration from down low (not that its perfect, but I don't think I want to reduce it further). In fact, one of my complaints before was the anticlimactic push above 4500 rpm. The initial push on snap-throttle acceleration gave a good thump, but then it just plateaued. Now, though, there's so much more power that the acceleration feels quick and strong, rather than just quick.

    Quote Originally Posted by 67CamaroRSSS View Post
    FWIW, even though my car has been put back to stock (by Sean) it still has SFC's and a built (by Sean) tranny. Although it's an A4 I can nail it at 15 or so and it drops to 1st, spins the tires and jumps like a raped ape. I miss having the torque arm though as it has major wheel hop at WOT off the line. I now have an SLP lid (it works with the AIR - the MTI doesn't) with an opened bottom and SLP smooth bellows. I really miss having the supporting mods, especially the LT's and Magnaflows. OTOH, it can pass Cali smog (visually, 25 and 40 mph dyno)...

    FWIW, I found Sean to be the most honest guy I've ever dealt with (from a mechanics standpoint - hell, from a human standpoint). I remember him calling me one day after I picked up my car to let me know that he'd overcharged me by $.37. He even looked at my Vette when I was in town last December and didn't charge me for putting it in the air to check things out.

    Tell him Jim Blake says "Hi!" next time you talk to him.

    Also, Hi Larry! Long time no see...
    Hey Jim! If I'm not mistaken, Magnaflow is CARB legal. And why no torque arm? Is Cali possibly more idiotic than I even realized? With my M6, I've found that wheel hop only happens when I take 2nd gear during full blast acceration (and I always lift and shift). I do have a lot of suspension mods, and SFCs, but no torque arm. What tires are you running? I use Michelins. Made worlds of difference compared to the Goodyear Eagle F1s.

  16. #176
    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Not sure what that guy in the viper was smokin' but with a V10 and 500 ft lbs. in a lightweight car there's not reason why that viper won't accelerate in 6th gear.

    Our 4th gen accelerates nicely in 6th gear and we use it all the time cruising around town in 35 mph zones, and it has no where near the power of a viper. I can simply push the throttle a bit and it picks up speed just fine when we get into 45 and 55 zones without the need to downshift. Shucks, we were doing this with 3.42's, and it's just that much easier with 3.73's. There is no need to go around town in low gear buzzing the engine at 2,000 rpms, unless someone just likes to waste gas and listen to the engine.

    I spent alot of time on the tune to reach those mpg numbers getting the AFR spot on, went SD tune for more consistency. Driving like a normal person around town the car repeatably gets 21+ mpg in stop and go, mainly 25-45 mph zones. Highway is 27ish depending on how fast you want to go. It's a very economical car for what it is and the power it puts down in my opinion.

    Just a heads up, the long tube headers will actually broaden and help the torque curve of the engine, especially in the mid range, as well as pick up HP throughout the curve.
    Shorties won't do much for torque but will help the peak HP.
    Last edited by Firebirdjones; 03-10-2015 at 06:07 AM.

  17. #177
    Exalted Cyclops 67CamaroRSSS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    I also believe Sean is top notch and honest. I wouldn't hesitate to use his services.

    Jim,,,,is that really you?? Where the hell have you been? Hey you might get a kick out of this, my wife is planning to drive that ole 1st gen daily. Guess I'll have to blow the cobwebs out of that, literally.
    Yes. it's really me. I'm usually in AAG when I'm on here.

    As for where I'm at, I moved to San Diego almost 3 years ago for a really good job opportunity. Easier work with almost double the pay how could I not accept.

    Tell her to be careful if she uses the 1st gen as a DD. Lot's of careless drivers out on the highway.

  18. #178
    Exalted Cyclops 67CamaroRSSS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naaman View Post
    Hey Jim! If I'm not mistaken, Magnaflow is CARB legal. And why no torque arm? Is Cali possibly more idiotic than I even realized? With my M6, I've found that wheel hop only happens when I take 2nd gear during full blast acceration (and I always lift and shift). I do have a lot of suspension mods, and SFCs, but no torque arm. What tires are you running? I use Michelins. Made worlds of difference compared to the Goodyear Eagle F1s.
    The Magnaflows may be CARB legal but the way I had them mounted they weren't (race headers with TD's dumped at the axle). I had a short body mount torque arm to get the strain off of the tranny. Putting the stock exhaust back on (I kept all of the stock stuff when I modded the car) put the Y-pipe in the way of the torque arm, so (for the cheapest solution) the stock torque arm went back on. Might go with a long adjustable TA someday. I have stock size Falken's on it now for better longevity as it's now my DD (the Vette is now the toy but it's hard not to drive it every day LOL). They're hard as a rock (compared to MT's) but that's what makes them last.

    If I power brake it or nail it from slow speed, even with the stock stall (it's an A4 and I used to have a 3400 stall) it'll wheel hop and/or start to fish tail. When I was racing it I used MT E/T DR's (see sig) with the TA set to -2*. Power brake it to 2500 and it was an "insta hook" off the line (no wheel spin). Even with the A4 I broke 2 sets of gears (3.73's, like FBJ said, not enough tooth contact area) and welded a pinion bearing to the pinion. It now has a set of 3.23's that came out of Sean's car.

  19. #179
    Senior Member Naaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Not sure what that guy in the viper was smokin' but with a V10 and 500 ft lbs. in a lightweight car there's not reason why that viper won't accelerate in 6th gear.
    Yeah, I could always use 6th gear to accelerate, too. Even idled around town at 30 mph in 6th. But When I would want to go faster, I just couldn't "feel" it accelerating. I suspect that it may be similar on the GTS. The car will pick up speed, but just doesn't feel like it's doing anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by 67CamaroRSSS View Post
    The Magnaflows may be CARB legal but the way I had them mounted they weren't (race headers with TD's dumped at the axle). I had a short body mount torque arm to get the strain off of the tranny. Putting the stock exhaust back on (I kept all of the stock stuff when I modded the car) put the Y-pipe in the way of the torque arm, so (for the cheapest solution) the stock torque arm went back on. Might go with a long adjustable TA someday. I have stock size Falken's on it now for better longevity as it's now my DD (the Vette is now the toy but it's hard not to drive it every day LOL). They're hard as a rock (compared to MT's) but that's what makes them last.

    If I power brake it or nail it from slow speed, even with the stock stall (it's an A4 and I used to have a 3400 stall) it'll wheel hop and/or start to fish tail. When I was racing it I used MT E/T DR's (see sig) with the TA set to -2*. Power brake it to 2500 and it was an "insta hook" off the line (no wheel spin). Even with the A4 I broke 2 sets of gears (3.73's, like FBJ said, not enough tooth contact area) and welded a pinion bearing to the pinion. It now has a set of 3.23's that came out of Sean's car.
    With 3.23s and the auto having really steep gearing, it makes a lot of sense what you're saying.

  20. #180
    Moderator 35th-ANV-SS's Avatar
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    Just get a Procharger. Then you can make drag radials spin going 60mph lol.

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