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A stall or Headers + ORY ?

This is a discussion on A stall or Headers + ORY ? within the General Help forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; I have a 00 Z28 A4 with a catback and lid. Thinking about whether to get some LTs and a ...

  1. #1
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    A stall or Headers + ORY ?

    I have a 00 Z28 A4 with a catback and lid. Thinking about whether to get some LTs and a ORY or a 3200 stall ? What do you guys think ? I dont want to get both because I can only afford one. I would if I could though. Thanks!

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    Slower Than a 3rd Gen juiced99ws6's Avatar
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    since you already have a catback and lid I would say go for the headers and y pipe. the stall may get you a better track times right now but the headers amd ory are definatly needed if you plan on modding past this stage.

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    Junior Member prietodogg's Avatar
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    I would say LT headers! help your car breath better! Headers are worth it and you will feel the difference. Save the stall for heavier racing!

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    Visualize°Design°Create SSwt00SS's Avatar
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    what are your goals, street or strip? we dont have enough info...

    but my opinion is, i would go stall, at the track that would more of a gain than LT's/ORY...

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    Thanks bros. I want to make the ride 60% track, 40% street. It will be a daily driver, I will be happy with a 12 sec timeslip

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    Junior Member Gunny's Goat's Avatar
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    I'd say go with the stall. It will pick your times up by .5 or more. The headers may pick you up .1 to .2 most. Seeing how you are 60% track and wanting the fastest times, no question, stall.
    2004 GTO, A4, Torrid Red/Blk, 1 of 1031, Yank SS3600, Dart-225s 62cc, Cometic .040, CompCams 230/236-.613/.608-112LSA, Hi Tech 7.350 pushrods, Kook 1 7/8, CAT/Reson. delete, 3" H-pipe, super 40s, Ported TB, TB bypass, 160TS, SLP MAF, JBA wires, NGK TR-55, New ERA CAI, tuned = 392hp/344tq

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    Junior Member Gunny's Goat's Avatar
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    I'd go stall. Seeing you are track 60%, and want the fastest times, no question, stall. Stall will pick you up .5 or more, headers will only get you .1 to .2. The headers won't do that much for you until you make motor mods.

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    Member SSpdDmon's Avatar
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    +1 for stall if you can afford/borrow sticky tires. 0.4~0.5 seconds off your ET is very possible...but only if you have the rubber to put the power to the pavement. Headers will help you on the top end and sound great. But, I wouldn't expect more than a 0.2 second & 2 mph gain on your time slip.

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    Will sticky tires be an ABSOLUTE requirement when it come to.. say a 3200-3500 stall ? I want a good street racer as well. thanks for the input

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    Go with the stall and make sure you get trans cooler to keep it working.

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    I see your goals are a 12 second car with your A4---I have a 12 sec. A4corvette and i know what it takes to make it go in the 12's--Don't know if you've been to the track yet but I would guess you are about a 13.50 . If so then i would say neither stall or headers---You're gonna need cam/heads or cam/ headers.But if i'm wrong on your #'s and you are dead set on those 2 pics-- I would choose the headers---A stall's 1st job in my opinion is to get a High Horsrepowered engine into it's power band quicker by being loose on the bottom RPM's so it can get up to say 4000-5000 faster and have more torque multiplication at those RPM's----You have basically a stock motor so your power band is way low--- Torque peaks out i'd say at 4000 and HP at 4800.--your stock converter can handle this fine--Where as LT headers will make ANY motor produce 20-30 RWHP with tuning---that would help you out more--But you still need much more to get into the middle 12's

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    A stall gets my vote. It's more bang for the buck. Even a stock motor, especially these LS1's that are kinda soft down low, really wake up with a loose converter. A good stall around or above 3,000 on a stock motor will yield about 4-5 tenths with no other changes. Headers won't do that for you. The stock manifolds on these LS1's are not that terrible when the motor is stock, which is why the HP gains are so minimal.

    Save the headers for later when a cam change is in the works, then you will see some benifit. Larry.

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    Member SSpdDmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tblu92 View Post
    I see your goals are a 12 second car with your A4---I have a 12 sec. A4corvette and i know what it takes to make it go in the 12's--Don't know if you've been to the track yet but I would guess you are about a 13.50 . If so then i would say neither stall or headers---You're gonna need cam/heads or cam/ headers.But if i'm wrong on your #'s and you are dead set on those 2 pics-- I would choose the headers---A stall's 1st job in my opinion is to get a High Horsrepowered engine into it's power band quicker by being loose on the bottom RPM's so it can get up to say 4000-5000 faster and have more torque multiplication at those RPM's----You have basically a stock motor so your power band is way low--- Torque peaks out i'd say at 4000 and HP at 4800.--your stock converter can handle this fine--Where as LT headers will make ANY motor produce 20-30 RWHP with tuning---that would help you out more--But you still need much more to get into the middle 12's
    I think you're a little off. I had a stock internals, bolt-ons Z running mid 12's because I had a 3200 stall (actually flashed to 3600) along with sticky tires. Yes, the converter is loose down low. But, it's the torque multiplication that gives you the benefit. Ever hear of people talking about power under the curve? It's the same concept. The converter increases the amount of delivered-to-the-pavement 'umph' that you need to start hauling ass. Think of it like going to the strip in an M6 and launching at 1800rpm while slipping the clutch or 3600rpm while slipping the clutch on N2O. How fast you slip the clutch is the STR. Converters with a higher STR hit harder (ie like dumping the clutch). Point is, you take any two stock LS1 cars and put a stall/sticky tires on one and headers/tune on the other.....the stalled LS1 will get down the 1320 faster every time.

    BTW, here's the dyno graph from my untuned, bolt-ons '99. HP peaked near 5600 and torque near 4600. Having a converter that holds you closer to where that peak torque number is will get you moving faster. Remember...multiplication. 2x200 is 400 but 1.8x330 is 594. Yes, a stock stall is more efficient. But, the other one works harder.

    Last edited by SSpdDmon; 04-24-2007 at 06:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SSpdDmon View Post
    I think you're a little off. I had a stock internals, bolt-ons Z running mid 12's because I had a 3200 stall (actually flashed to 3600) along with sticky tires. Yes, the converter is loose down low. But, it's the torque multiplication that gives you the benefit. Ever hear of people talking about power under the curve? It's the same concept. The converter increases the amount of delivered-to-the-pavement 'umph' that you need to start hauling ass. Think of it like going to the strip in an M6 and launching at 1800rpm while slipping the clutch or 3600rpm while slipping the clutch on N2O. How fast you slip the clutch is the STR. Converters with a higher STR hit harder (ie like dumping the clutch). Point is, you take any two stock LS1 cars and put a stall/sticky tires on one and headers/tune on the other.....the stalled LS1 will get down the 1320 faster every time.

    BTW, here's the dyno graph from my untuned, bolt-ons '99. HP peaked near 5600 and torque near 4600. Having a converter that holds you closer to where that peak torque number is will get you moving faster. Remember...multiplication. 2x200 is 400 but 1.8x330 is 594. Yes, a stock stall is more efficient. But, the other one works harder.

    Click for full size
    How can you say I'm off when I'm talking about my own car and giving "my opinions" based on my experience ???? Your dyno graphs mean nothing to me---they aren't my car or my combination----Why would I want a stall when I can't keep tires on it now ?--It is a street car with street tires and gonna stay that way--I have plenty of power--maybe you need a stall to get your car to move off the line--I don't--My opinion on this gentleman is he needs other parts 1st to ahieve his goal of 12 seconds --everytime someone is slow they always say gears and stall---Its a dead givaway of an underpowered motor---Now I'm not talking about race cars here---just what kind of stuff we do only-- weekend warriors !!!!!
    This forum is about sharing ideas , sharing opinions and helping each other with problems ----When you start off a comment with " you're a little off " when I am sharing an opinion and trying to help someone make a decision--it only shows that you can't read and this forum isn't about helping and sharing with others to you----its about making YOU always right about everything and stroking your ego-----I was racing before you were born sonny and I don't need a 27 year old to disrespect me--I have laid down over 1000 passes down the track and have 32 national evnt wins --with an automatic--Next time you open your big mouth be careful who you insult.

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    Member SSpdDmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tblu92 View Post
    How can you say I'm off when I'm talking about my own car and giving "my opinions" based on my experience ???? Your dyno graphs mean nothing to me---they aren't my car or my combination----Why would I want a stall when I can't keep tires on it now ?--It is a street car with street tires and gonna stay that way--I have plenty of power--maybe you need a stall to get your car to move off the line--I don't--My opinion on this gentleman is he needs other parts 1st to ahieve his goal of 12 seconds --everytime someone is slow they always say gears and stall---Its a dead givaway of an underpowered motor---Now I'm not talking about race cars here---just what kind of stuff we do only-- weekend warriors !!!!!
    This forum is about sharing ideas , sharing opinions and helping each other with problems ----When you start off a comment with " you're a little off " when I am sharing an opinion and trying to help someone make a decision--it only shows that you can't read and this forum isn't about helping and sharing with others to you----its about making YOU always right about everything and stroking your ego-----I was racing before you were born sonny and I don't need a 27 year old to disrespect me--I have laid down over 1000 passes down the track and have 32 national evnt wins --with an automatic--Next time you open your big mouth be careful who you insult.
    Well, when I said you're a little off, I was refering to the numbers you posted (peak tq = 4000 rpm and peak hp = 4800). Unless you have some unique kind of LS1, you're numbers are 'a little off.' Last time I checked, LS1 HP was advertised to be 320 @ 5800 RPM and torque to be 330 @ 4400 RPM. Bolt-ons don't move those numbers up or down that much at all. As for you're opinion about doing headers first....fine...that's your opinion and I don't have a problem with that. I'm just telling you there are hundreds of other people out there that say gears and stall for a reason (me being one of them). Yes, a stickier tire is going to be necessary to hook up the added delivered torque. What's wrong with runnin a Nitto DR? I know I'm not the only one who does. You can still drive your weekend street warrior on drag radials. If you want a stiffer sidewall, run the R2's. They're virtually the same thing, except with a better sidewall for autocrossing.

    It's not my goal on this (or any) forum to surpress people's opinions. Only to surpress false information. Anyone who says a tuned header car is faster down the 1320 than a comparable stalled/geared car is going to get the same response. The header car may trap a higher MPH....it may not. But, it sure won't have a better ET.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SSpdDmon View Post
    Well, when I said you're a little off, I was refering to the numbers you posted (peak tq = 4000 rpm and peak hp = 4800). Unless you have some unique kind of LS1, you're numbers are 'a little off.' Last time I checked, LS1 HP was advertised to be 320 @ 5800 RPM and torque to be 330 @ 4400 RPM. Bolt-ons don't move those numbers up or down that much at all. As for you're opinion about doing headers first....fine...that's your opinion and I don't have a problem with that. I'm just telling you there are hundreds of other people out there that say gears and stall for a reason (me being one of them). Yes, a stickier tire is going to be necessary to hook up the added delivered torque. What's wrong with runnin a Nitto DR? I know I'm not the only one who does. You can still drive your weekend street warrior on drag radials. If you want a stiffer sidewall, run the R2's. They're virtually the same thing, except with a better sidewall for autocrossing.

    It's not my goal on this (or any) forum to surpress people's opinions. Only to surpress false information. Anyone who says a tuned header car is faster down the 1320 than a comparable stalled/geared car is going to get the same response. The header car may trap a higher MPH....it may not. But, it sure won't have a better ET.
    I am not saying anything here other than my opinions and what I know from my combination and the averages of the nearly 300 cars I have tuned--
    You keep saying things that I never said---Like I mentioned earlier you can't read !!!
    I never said anything about a stalled and geared cars performance--Wgerer did that come from ?? I never said it
    Now you are calling me a liar? My cars peak TQ is at 4200 and peak HP is at 5300---and I have heads and cam---PeaK HP at 5800 you said that --on a STOCK motor NO WAY-----And peak TQ you say 4400----well I said 4000 looking at a stack of dyno sheets here some peak at 4000 and most are a bit higher yes around 4400-- so I was just guessing and was a bit low-but many do peak at 4000----

    Don't accuse me of saying false things--I am just saying my opinions from my experiences--If people choose to believe me fine-If they choose to believe you I don't care--- As far as tires go we aren't allowed to use D.R. in our racing class. WHO DIED AND MADE YOU THE RSIDENT EXPERT ANYWAY ? AND WHO GIVES YOU THE RIGHT TO SAY WHATS TRUE OR FALSE?? NO ONE


    PS--Is there any speacial reason your Dyno sheet is in MPH rather than RPM's because you are hiding something ????? like the real peak HP range and the real peak TQ range ???? I'M through with your BS don't bother me any more.

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    Preferred Member CWW17's Avatar
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    +1 for stall... its a great mod for any A4

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    Member SSpdDmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tblu92 View Post
    I am not saying anything here other than my opinions and what I know from my combination and the averages of the nearly 300 cars I have tuned--
    You keep saying things that I never said---Like I mentioned earlier you can't read !!!
    I never said anything about a stalled and geared cars performance--Wgerer did that come from ?? I never said it
    Now you are calling me a liar? My cars peak TQ is at 4200 and peak HP is at 5300---and I have heads and cam---PeaK HP at 5800 you said that --on a STOCK motor NO WAY-----And peak TQ you say 4400----well I said 4000 looking at a stack of dyno sheets here some peak at 4000 and most are a bit higher yes around 4400-- so I was just guessing and was a bit low-but many do peak at 4000----

    Don't accuse me of saying false things--I am just saying my opinions from my experiences--If people choose to believe me fine-If they choose to believe you I don't care--- As far as tires go we aren't allowed to use D.R. in our racing class. WHO DIED AND MADE YOU THE RSIDENT EXPERT ANYWAY ? AND WHO GIVES YOU THE RIGHT TO SAY WHATS TRUE OR FALSE?? NO ONE


    PS--Is there any speacial reason your Dyno sheet is in MPH rather than RPM's because you are hiding something ????? like the real peak HP range and the real peak TQ range ???? I'M through with your BS don't bother me any more.
    Dude you seriously need to chill.

    1) This thread is about performance. That's why he asked which would be better....not better sounding...not better looking.

    2) You're not the only one of the two of us who tunes cars....nevermind the fact that you tuning cars doesn't mean sh!t for the purposes of this thread.

    3) How the hell I'm supposed to know your little club doesn't allow drag radials? Besides, if the author of the thread wanted an autocross car, I'd think he'd have the common sense to buy an M6 instead of an A4.

    4) Those HP/TQ figures I posted are advertised by GM. You want to claim false advertisement on their part? Fine.

    5) I never said I took over as the end all be all after someone died. You and your assholish attitude came up with that one all on your own.

    6) I too have experiences and opinions that I share. It's too bad you haven't figured that one out and that maybe...just maybe you're being a little too defensive.

    7) The reason my dyno is in MPH is because the dyno operator had a hard time getting a spark reading off my plug wire through the inductive clamp. As a result, the RPM view would not show torque accurately. For someone who has tuned 'over 300 cars', I would think you would know that already since it's a somewhat common problem with inductive clamps when they don't have a great ground connection.

    8) You need to chill...the whole world isn't against you and neither am I. You should re-read this thread because you're the one that came with the attitude first. I only expressed my opinion by saying, "I think you're numbers are a little off." YOU ARE THE ONE THAT STARTED TALKING ABOUT YOUR WINS AND CLAIMING I'M 'STROKING MY EGO' BY DISAGREEING WITH YOU. WTF are you smoking dude????

    9) You recommended at one point in this thread the guy keep his stock manifolds, stock stall, and go with a head and cam package to hit 12.50's!!!! And you're talking to me like I'm the idiot???

    Now, I'm through with YOUR bullsh!t...so don't you bother me no more.
    Last edited by SSpdDmon; 04-24-2007 at 07:19 PM.

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