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sarge help me some

This is a discussion on sarge help me some within the General Help forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; alright why run a 0W30 when factory is 5w30 wouldn't be to thin until some heat was in the oil ...

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    Member zmg00camaross's Avatar
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    sarge help me some

    alright why run a 0W30 when factory is 5w30 wouldn't be to thin until some heat was in the oil we run amsoil in my race car I bought the car and previous owner always used mobil 1 but was think of changeing to amsoil with prefereed customer what's the benfits what about 10w30 thanks in advance

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    i personally see no need for 0w unless you live in the great white north. i live and PA and run 20w50 in my setup.

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    does amsoil make 5w40 I didn't see it on the website

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    Quote Originally Posted by zmg00camaross View Post
    alright why run a 0W30 when factory is 5w30 wouldn't be to thin until some heat was in the oil we run amsoil in my race car I bought the car and previous owner always used mobil 1 but was think of changeing to amsoil with prefereed customer what's the benfits what about 10w30 thanks in advance
    Check out Sarges "oil junkie" thread tons of hard data on the subject. Also with the tight tollerances of todays engines 20-50 may do more damage then good. Check out the thread it's worth it.

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    Member zmg00camaross's Avatar
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    I check there is so many pages of lube it's crazy, couldn't find why ppl run euro 0w30 I don't get it. just want a little light on y they use it that's all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zmg00camaross View Post
    I check there is so many pages of lube it's crazy, couldn't find why ppl run euro 0w30 I don't get it. just want a little light on y they use it that's all.
    Best bet maybe ask Sarge himself. Send him a pm he'll probably get back to ya pretty quick. But I believe his labratory data showed excellent wear data, and very good particulate suspention characturistics on certain Euros' and dinos' aswell as amsoil. Seems he uses a mixture for best test results for his GTO. He's got 35 years studying oil and test results to back it all up too. I'd just ask him personally. He'd know the best combo for your needs or at least point you in the right direction. I've read his entire post believe me start to finnish he got his shit together on lube. Good luck..
    Last edited by Smittro; 03-21-2009 at 04:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smittro View Post
    Check out Sarges "oil junkie" thread tons of hard data on the subject. Also with the tight tollerances of todays engines 20-50 may do more damage then good. Check out the thread it's worth it.
    dont forget if your motor sees high temps then its best to use a thicker oil. i been running 20w50 in my toys for 4 yrs now. not one issue

    you are right tho depending on how the motor is built is what oil you use.

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    Post 5W-40

    Quote Originally Posted by zmg00camaross View Post
    does amsoil make 5w40 I didn't see it on the website
    AMSOIL Synthetic 5W-40 Premium Diesel Oil (DEO)


    CompSyn

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    Quote Originally Posted by zmg00camaross View Post
    alright why run a 0W30 when factory is 5w30 wouldn't be to thin until some heat was in the oil we run amsoil in my race car I bought the car and previous owner always used mobil 1 but was think of changeing to amsoil with prefereed customer what's the benfits what about 10w30 thanks in advance
    I know it is confusing enough and then you add in internet misinformation and it gets really confusing. Most folks go after a lower viscosity not because they live on the North Pole but they know 90% of engine wear occurs at start up and they want the thinnest oil to minimize the time it takes the oil to circulate/lubricate at start up. Many people don't understand that. So often you will find threads asking about 0/5/10 weights being diluted with folks posting about -50f below zero and weather/geographic considerations and that is missing the point/question about protecting against start up wear. So let me take a shot at it in plain language......I think the first place to start is talking a bit about viscosity and it's impact...good and bad....
    Lets talk about "pumpability" first. How much quicker does a 0 weight get to critical components versus a 10 weight. Well the API assigns viscosity "W" weights by seeking a oils viscosity at 0f. Yes that is zero degrees Fahrenheit. The first viscosity number is not assigned at room temps nor ambient temps but at 0f. So for the purposes of discussion let's look at the oil's cold start pumpability and viscosity at 60f. 60f seems to be a middle of the road ambient temp. I'll save us a lot of time ( please feel free to Google) and just tell you there is none. Well not enough to make any difference in the real world. So I propose/submit there is nothing gained at start up by running a 0 weight versus a 10 weight. Not enough to make a long term difference on engine wear anyway.
    Now the above statement I would not have made 2 years ago (or even less) but base oils have come very far in recent 2 years that the advantage a 0 weight would have is all but gone over a 10 weight.
    So now lets look at any advantage of one specific weight versus another.
    I think you must know how multi viscosity oil works to begin with to better understand. Multi viscosity oils work like this: Polymers are added to a light base (5W, 10W, 20W), which prevent the oil from thinning as much as it warms up. At cold temperatures the polymers are coiled up and allow the oil to flow as their low numbers indicate. As the oil warms up the polymers begin to unwind into long chains that prevent the oil from thinning as much as it normally would. The result is that at 100 degrees (centigrates or 212f) the oil has thinned only as much as the higher viscosity number indicates. Another way of looking at multi-vis oils is to think of a 20W-50 as a 20 weight oil that will not thin more than a 50 weight would when hot. So as you can see a 10-30 oil is really a 10 weight oil! It is not a 30 weight oil. Now make no mistake about this. The polymers do wear out.....yes they do.....and this causes shearing....in other words you may start out with a 5-30 but after 500 miles you are running a 20 weight. Polymers is where Royal Purple falls on its face. I have had Royal Purple 40 weights test out at a 20 weight after 500 miles. I dont want a 20 weight oil in my Stroker 408 thank you very much and my wear metals agreed with me Now to make things more complicated them propeller heads at Amsoil go and use much more robust/expensive Esters and dont use polymers so now I have to say the above applies to all oils EXCEPT Amsoil. Also I must tell you that oils like Shaeffers and RedLine use more and better polymer agents and do not have the shearing issues with their multi weight oils. You have to look at the specific blenders receipe and analyze a oil's add packs to determine it's ability to stay in grade. Bean counters have a impact on this often and many "go cheap" on you. A perfect example of this is Mobil1. They have gone cheap on their blends in the past 18 months. Mobil1 of 2 years ago was a much better oil than it is today. By the way did any of you see the cost go down on Mobil1 after they went cheap on their blends?
    So with all the above said I recommend the 10-30 weights as they have a) less polymers b) a 10 weight base oil and these two add up to more shear resistance. You want an oil that is going to stay in grade. You want pumpability at start up to eliminate metal on metal (also see film strength but that is another day) you want a oil to lubricate and carry heat away.
    I recommend a 10-30 with the exception being Amsoil and I recommend their SSO 0-30.
    Hope I didnt ramble on you man and hopefully this will help you in your oil decesions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smittro View Post
    I use 20w50 in my GM tuner cause the original prototype TDC 60* v6 used it. I did a full spec recreation of it so just went with 20-50 too. Also because that particular engine has a very long oil travel and I use a over sized cooler.
    I showin almost no wear on all 4 cams. High presure pump helps too.
    you know of hills of PA and it says new ken... is that new ken pa?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    Also I must tell you that oils like Shaeffers and RedLine use more and better polymer agents and do not have the shearing issues with their multi weight oils.
    Just did a search for Schaffer dealers.............closet one to me is 25 miles away.........damn

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    Last edited by Smittro; 03-21-2009 at 07:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smittro View Post
    The Sarge has arrived!
    its much better when you meet the man in person

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    Quote Originally Posted by CompSyn View Post
    hey thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
    I know it is confusing enough and then you add in internet misinformation and it gets really confusing. Most folks go after a lower viscosity not because they live on the North Pole but they know 90% of engine wear occurs at start up and they want the thinnest oil to minimize the time it takes the oil to circulate/lubricate at start up. Many people don't understand that. So often you will find threads asking about 0/5/10 weights being diluted with folks posting about -50f below zero and weather/geographic considerations and that is missing the point/question about protecting against start up wear. So let me take a shot at it in plain language......I think the first place to start is talking a bit about viscosity and it's impact...good and bad....
    Lets talk about "pumpability" first. How much quicker does a 0 weight get to critical components versus a 10 weight. Well the API assigns viscosity "W" weights by seeking a oils viscosity at 0f. Yes that is zero degrees Fahrenheit. The first viscosity number is not assigned at room temps nor ambient temps but at 0f. So for the purposes of discussion let's look at the oil's cold start pumpability and viscosity at 60f. 60f seems to be a middle of the road ambient temp. I'll save us a lot of time ( please feel free to Google) and just tell you there is none. Well not enough to make any difference in the real world. So I propose/submit there is nothing gained at start up by running a 0 weight versus a 10 weight. Not enough to make a long term difference on engine wear anyway.
    Now the above statement I would not have made 2 years ago (or even less) but base oils have come very far in recent 2 years that the advantage a 0 weight would have is all but gone over a 10 weight.
    So now lets look at any advantage of one specific weight versus another.
    I think you must know how multi viscosity oil works to begin with to better understand. Multi viscosity oils work like this: Polymers are added to a light base (5W, 10W, 20W), which prevent the oil from thinning as much as it warms up. At cold temperatures the polymers are coiled up and allow the oil to flow as their low numbers indicate. As the oil warms up the polymers begin to unwind into long chains that prevent the oil from thinning as much as it normally would. The result is that at 100 degrees (centigrates or 212f) the oil has thinned only as much as the higher viscosity number indicates. Another way of looking at multi-vis oils is to think of a 20W-50 as a 20 weight oil that will not thin more than a 50 weight would when hot. So as you can see a 10-30 oil is really a 10 weight oil! It is not a 30 weight oil. Now make no mistake about this. The polymers do wear out.....yes they do.....and this causes shearing....in other words you may start out with a 5-30 but after 500 miles you are running a 20 weight. Polymers is where Royal Purple falls on its face. I have had Royal Purple 40 weights test out at a 20 weight after 500 miles. I dont want a 20 weight oil in my Stroker 408 thank you very much and my wear metals agreed with me Now to make things more complicated them propeller heads at Amsoil go and use much more robust/expensive Esters and dont use polymers so now I have to say the above applies to all oils EXCEPT Amsoil. Also I must tell you that oils like Shaeffers and RedLine use more and better polymer agents and do not have the shearing issues with their multi weight oils. You have to look at the specific blenders receipe and analyze a oil's add packs to determine it's ability to stay in grade. Bean counters have a impact on this often and many "go cheap" on you. A perfect example of this is Mobil1. They have gone cheap on their blends in the past 18 months. Mobil1 of 2 years ago was a much better oil than it is today. By the way did any of you see the cost go down on Mobil1 after they went cheap on their blends?
    So with all the above said I recommend the 10-30 weights as they have a) less polymers b) a 10 weight base oil and these two add up to more shear resistance. You want an oil that is going to stay in grade. You want pumpability at start up to eliminate metal on metal (also see film strength but that is another day) you want a oil to lubricate and carry heat away.
    I recommend a 10-30 with the exception being Amsoil and I recommend their SSO 0-30.
    Hope I didnt ramble on you man and hopefully this will help you in your oil decesions.
    Thanks sarge this helps greatly. But why wouldnt you recommend amsoil 5w30? Is 0w30 superior to the 5w30 i just want the best oil and if mobil one isnt up to par then its out of my motor and amsoil it is my buddy pro stock car he tried to run royal purple and kept chewing bearings up so i always stayed clear of that crap and went back to amsoil. That what is in my race motor, so why not in my street car. and agian thanks for all your help i appreciate it

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    Quote Originally Posted by hurraquio View Post
    its much better when you meet the man in person
    I could only imagine. But I'm a little far from TX.LOL
    Last edited by Smittro; 03-22-2009 at 12:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zmg00camaross View Post
    Thanks sarge this helps greatly. But why wouldnt you recommend amsoil 5w30? Is 0w30 superior to the 5w30 i just want the best oil and if mobil one isnt up to par then its out of my motor and amsoil it is my buddy pro stock car he tried to run royal purple and kept chewing bearings up so i always stayed clear of that crap and went back to amsoil. That what is in my race motor, so why not in my street car. and agian thanks for all your help i appreciate it
    The SSO has a seriously advanced add pack over the 5-30. Now don't get me wrong here....Amsoil 5-30 is the bomb. Great stuff....but the SSO 0-30 has a TBN of like 12.X and is off the charts.

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    well guess its time to be a perferred customer for amsoil, looks to be a good deal and thanks again sarge

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    You bet...the SSO will stand up to the fuel dilution and keep lubricating.
    You know somebody mentioned Royal Purple eating bearings earlier and I have to share...
    My buddy runs a NHRA fuel altered....He will not listen to anybody about anything...ran Royal Purple 0-10 weight crapola and ate push rods left and right. These things looked like they had been grinded down....metal on metal.....I got him a case of Amsoil 0-20

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