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Rebuild LS1, or drop in LS2/LS6?

This is a discussion on Rebuild LS1, or drop in LS2/LS6? within the General Help forums, part of the LSx Technical Help Section category; sorry what i meant was inexpensive head porting because i was leaning toward doing it yourself to save money and ...

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    no more 4th gen secondgearscratch's Avatar
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    sorry what i meant was inexpensive head porting because i was leaning toward doing it yourself to save money and as a learning experience. i agree. i wouldnt want it done twice but i hate to see all this money spent on clearancing and decking the block and having little or no money for anything else. it gets expensive. if youre on a budget why not learn alittle and attempt things yourself? then you have the sense of accomplishment to go along with outrageous speed.

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Gotcha, i think I know what you meant now

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    Member danziger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScrapMaker View Post
    Thanks! How far you can you go with the stock injectors? But even if I had to swap them out, couldn't I just use LS1edit to compensate?
    I'm running SVO 30lbers on my 383, but ran the stockers on my heads/cam setup. Yes, LS1edit would do the trick.

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    Member danziger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    I was always told and under the impression that an LS2 won't simply drop into an Fbody without the LS2 computer to go with it. Since the LS2 uses a different reluctor wheel with more or less tooth count for the crank trigger than an LS1 does.
    Is there now a simple wire harness or crank trigger change that cures this problem or is this a myth?
    Like I stated up top, the LS2 doesn't simply "drop in" as a replacement. The electronic throttle, knock-sensors, PCM and other issues would need to be addressed...
    You were informed correctly...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LS2Tuner View Post
    Sorry I guess I should of stated I could build myself a 450 ci + short block for $5000. With the new LSX block being well under $2000 Sorry to say I can buy a rotating asssembly for under $3000. I can put together my own mtr. I'm not paying someones crazy labor rate to assemb. a short blk.
    Heh. Not everybody has that kind of talent...I wish I did. I could probably put the engine together, but I don't know enough about the little idiosyncracies/tricks/tolerances to do it with confidence.
    However, even if he could put the 450ci LSx together for $5K, I'm not sure I would want to bolt stock heads to it...

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    Member danziger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by secondgearscratch View Post
    whoever said trading up for a forged 347 +1 on that and stroke it!!!!!!!! do it yourself if you have the time and save some money. maybe go with a lunati 4 inch crank and get your block clearanced and cleaned and get the stroker kit. save money wherever you can. hell if you find an inexpensive machine shop have them port your heads. hand port them if youre brave....if you have the money to throw around by doing it yourself just get the most cubes you can with minimal machining costs.
    actually on second thought do whatever feels good and keep us updated (pics!)
    good luck
    Heh. I really think a forged 347 with some decent, maybe good used heads is this guy's solution. The foundation will be there if you want to spray the snot out of it...

    Here's a nice 347 short-block for $2750: http://www.texas-speed.com/shop/item...mid=42&catid=3

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    Nitrous Tuner LS2Tuner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danziger View Post
    Heh. Not everybody has that kind of talent...I wish I did. I could probably put the engine together, but I don't know enough about the little idiosyncracies/tricks/tolerances to do it with confidence.
    However, even if he could put the 450ci LSx together for $5K, I'm not sure I would want to bolt stock heads to it...
    Why not...... You could run it with the stock heads without having problems. Heads could be added much later. With that kind of displacement the TQ is fierce!! You could even run a stock LS6 cam in it and it would be a tire fryer with all that low end tq.
    Thats a great way to make a sleeper. BIG motor looking ALL stock with factory casting heads and all.
    With a huge bore like that and stock valves it would have port volocity from hell!!!
    Don't be afraid of the bottle!!! Be afraid of your tune!!!

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    Member danziger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LS2Tuner View Post
    Why not...... You could run it with the stock heads without having problems. Heads could be added much later. With that kind of displacement the TQ is fierce!! You could even run a stock LS6 cam in it and it would be a tire fryer with all that low end tq.
    Thats a great way to make a sleeper. BIG motor looking ALL stock with factory casting heads and all.
    With a huge bore like that and stock valves it would have port volocity from hell!!!
    The only reason I would be leery of the stock heads is because of the larger bore of the block, but I've never done it, so don't know if there would be issues... besides, the OP doesn't sound like the type to want to do much more than drop it in and go...
    I agree that a big-cube/small cam LSx would make a great street car with all the torque and a total sleeper as well. I'd love to see the torque "curve" of a big-inch LSx with a LS6 intake and the relatively small valved heads.

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    I would not say I am the most mechanically-inclined person in the world... which is why I was sorta looking for a drop-in solution... I also don't really have the time to work on something like this...

    Does the LS6 drop "right in"? Y'all say the LS2 doesn't match up, sensors or whatever, but does the LS6 work fine?

    If I could get that motor with a warranty from that link, or something similar, it seems like it would be a hell of a deal... put in a mild cam, and I'd be set... or not... I would be happy with 400hp...

    How easy is it to swap in an LS6?

    It also looks like I will still need to buy the LS6 intake to go with the motor in that link?

    Thanks for everything guys... this is going to be a real headache soon, when the engine starts having serious issues... I'd like to get the new motor in, so I can sell the old one before a piston goes through the block!

    -Steve

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    no more 4th gen secondgearscratch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScrapMaker View Post
    I would not say I am the most mechanically-inclined person in the world... which is why I was sorta looking for a drop-in solution... I also don't really have the time to work on something like this...

    Does the LS6 drop "right in"? Y'all say the LS2 doesn't match up, sensors or whatever, but does the LS6 work fine?

    If I could get that motor with a warranty from that link, or something similar, it seems like it would be a hell of a deal... put in a mild cam, and I'd be set... or not... I would be happy with 400hp...

    How easy is it to swap in an LS6?

    It also looks like I will still need to buy the LS6 intake to go with the motor in that link?

    Thanks for everything guys... this is going to be a real headache soon, when the engine starts having serious issues... I'd like to get the new motor in, so I can sell the old one before a piston goes through the block!

    -Steve
    i dont know if you realized this or not (not trying to rip on you at all) but the ls6 isnt bigger in anyway that it would give you install problems. it is an ls1 with a different casting #. the difference (small) is the ls6 block supposedly improves cylinder breathing by having thinner passages cast into the block. not too mention the ls6 intake which came on 01-02 f bods and the very mild ls6 cam (dont know specs off the top of my head). it will "drop in", its an ls1. still a 347. the long running debate to my knowledge with the ls1 vs. ls6 block has been that the ls6 might be good for a few (a few!!) extra hp or that it weakens the block because of the thinner passages. personally i dont have a preference. its all basically the same. if you arent too mechanically inclined then have it installed. no shame in that at all. then later if you want YOU can put in a cam with alittle effort and do heads and exhaust. i see that you would be happy with 400hp and a fresh ls6 would be right around there. i would think that an ls1 with the ls6 intake could be had for alittle cheaper since the ls6 block is just ssssssssooooooooo rare and then you could use the extra dough to get a more aggressive cam than the ls6. just a thought. good luck

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    I think what he means by asking if the LS6 will drop in and run,,,,is whether or not our Fbody computers will run the motor without too much issue, and whether or not the sensors match up, wireing harness etc....what kind of issues would he run into with that?

    Only thing I can think of off the top of my head is the LS6 intake has no EGR provisions, so if you are doing this with a 98-00 Fbody that would have to be addressed,,,,,01-02 Fbodies came factory with LS6 intakes so this isn't a problem.
    But what other little snags are involved dropping in a crate LS6? Surely someone has done this already,,,right?
    Knock sensors?
    Crank sensor?
    Cam sensor? I know sometimes this stuff gets moved around to different areas of the blocks over the years,,,so wire harness extensions would be needed,,,and I believe there are companies making that sort of thing just for oddball engine swaps.

    This is the kind of info that I think would be usefull to anyone contemplating an engine swap like this,,,,,hint hint

    I would say at the very least for the LS6 to run at it's best a custom tune would be needed right off the bat, even for a stock crate motor,,,,but what other oddball problems would he run into? Larry.

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    The LS6 is basically the same engine as the LS1, but with a MILD heads/cam package. The LS6 block has different windowing and a different PCV set-up...that's it AFAIK. The LS6 heads have slightly different ports and valves. A healthy Z06 usually puts down 355-365rwhp, so yor resulys would be about the same (F-body has more restrictive exhaust, but more efficient drivetrain). With all the bolt-ons you could get near 400rwhp...
    As for install problems, I can't really think of any. You could probably even get by with the factory tune for a while... Good luck!

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Has anyone done this swap before that can tell us anything we are missing? I really hate to guess at this sort of thing.

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    i just did alittle reading in a gm high tech performance mag i have by the shitter and it said its all the same except for the egr delete which was standard in 01-02, which is the only years the ls6 coded blocks were "available" in f bodies. it is infact the exact same thing except for what i and danziger stated earlier. IMO i think i would like to have started with an 01-02 set up because then you can just drop in race headers and dont have to worry about the EGR bung and blocking the bitches off. the factory tune will be different bc its a different cam than the small ones from 01 -02 f bodies but the cam is basically the only difference between an ls6 z06 vette and an ss or ws6 with the ls6 block and intake.
    hope i helped in some way.....

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    Sounds great. Also the heads are different as well, with revised intake and exhaust ports. Combustion chamber I believe is slightly less cc on the LS6 head as well.
    Actually I am not sure how many 01-02 if any got an LS6 block, it seems a few did but not many. I have an 02 SS and it has the standard LS1 block with the LS6 intake.
    It sounds as though the LS6 crate motor would be a worthy swap if you are in need of a complete motor, and once tuned correctly would put an Fbody easily into the 12's with no other changes.
    Add a nice camshaft and some headers for very little money and have some fun as well.

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    no more 4th gen secondgearscratch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebirdjones View Post
    Sounds great. Also the heads are different as well, with revised intake and exhaust ports. Combustion chamber I believe is slightly less cc on the LS6 head as well.
    Actually I am not sure how many 01-02 if any got an LS6 block, it seems a few did but not many. I have an 02 SS and it has the standard LS1 block with the LS6 intake.
    It sounds as though the LS6 crate motor would be a worthy swap if you are in need of a complete motor, and once tuned correctly would put an Fbody easily into the 12's with no other changes.
    Add a nice camshaft and some headers for very little money and have some fun as well.
    i agree. yep as i was walking away from the computer i forgot the actual ls6 had alittle different heads. it should be worth it since he would be getting a "true and complete" ls6 which i believe was good for about 375 at the wheels. i personally would opt for a more aggressive cam so +1 on what you said. good luck
    John

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    So what I'm getting out of this, is that there is no real reason to go with an actual LS6, unless I'm looking to keep/use the GM factory-warranty on a brand-new LS6? Seeing it's the same block, and uses the same exact sensors as my LS1, right?

    It sounds like I should just have my LS1 rebuilt by a local shop, because then I won't have to deal with the EGR-delete... unless that's no big deal.

    So essentially, if I were to put on LS6-similar heads, intake, and cam-shaft, I would have around 400bhp? Or would I need to change all the internals? Pistons, lifters, etc?

    Honestly, even a stock LS1 would be a vast improvement on this car... the fastest time I've gotten in the 1/4 mile is 14.0... with brand-new Khumo Ecstas... The engine feels fine, aside from a slight vibration that I've had for some time now.

    If I had this motor rebuilt to stock LS1 specs, with aftermarket heads/intake/cam... could I easily get 400bhp, or would I need to make drastic changes to the internals?

    I am going to call around to some specialty shops around here, but I honestly think they are going to charge me MORE to make my LS1 400hp, than it would be to just get an LS6 put in here, brand-new...

    Someone mentioned that an actual LS6 can put close to 375 to the ground... what could I get with a mild cam? No matter what I do, I want to maintain at least 17-19mpg city, and 22+ highway... that's already so damned low, I couldn't afford to go lower..

    Although, if getting an LS6 to work is not all that difficult, that sure would be cool to say I had an LS6 under the hood... I bet that's fairly rare...

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    Moderator Firebirdjones's Avatar
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    Other advantages of going to a crate motor is for one,,,,quick and easy,,,very little down time,,,,no headaches dealing with machine shops or poor quality work that no one wants to take blame for,,,,you get a warranty with a crate motor,,,plus everything is brand new rather than remachined if that matters to you,,,keeping in mind some high mileage LS1's may not have enough material for a satisfactory boring if the wear is excessive,,,you won't know that until you tear into it and send it to a machine shop,,,,you already know the performance potential of a crate motor without guessing,,,I could go on.
    Yes you can reach 400 rwhp easily on an LS1 with a good heads and cam package provided the bottom end is in sound condition,,,but if you want a complete rebuild the door is open.

    Most likely a complete rebuild of your LS1, with ported LS6 heads, cam etc...with all proper machine work and new parts would likely cost you as much or more than some crate motors,,,that LS6 that someone mentioned earlier for $4,100 is a great deal that would seriously tempt me. Hard to rebuild an LS1 completely and do it right,,,and not spend that much money,,,and if you can't assemble it yourself,,,figure in assembly labor on top of that.
    It really depends on what you want to spend, and how much work you want or can do. Larry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScrapMaker View Post
    So what I'm getting out of this, is that there is no real reason to go with an actual LS6, unless I'm looking to keep/use the GM factory-warranty on a brand-new LS6? Seeing it's the same block, and uses the same exact sensors as my LS1, right?

    It sounds like I should just have my LS1 rebuilt by a local shop, because then I won't have to deal with the EGR-delete... unless that's no big deal.

    So essentially, if I were to put on LS6-similar heads, intake, and cam-shaft, I would have around 400bhp? Or would I need to change all the internals? Pistons, lifters, etc?

    Honestly, even a stock LS1 would be a vast improvement on this car... the fastest time I've gotten in the 1/4 mile is 14.0... with brand-new Khumo Ecstas... The engine feels fine, aside from a slight vibration that I've had for some time now.

    If I had this motor rebuilt to stock LS1 specs, with aftermarket heads/intake/cam... could I easily get 400bhp, or would I need to make drastic changes to the internals?

    I am going to call around to some specialty shops around here, but I honestly think they are going to charge me MORE to make my LS1 400hp, than it would be to just get an LS6 put in here, brand-new...

    Someone mentioned that an actual LS6 can put close to 375 to the ground... what could I get with a mild cam? No matter what I do, I want to maintain at least 17-19mpg city, and 22+ highway... that's already so damned low, I couldn't afford to go lower..

    Although, if getting an LS6 to work is not all that difficult, that sure would be cool to say I had an LS6 under the hood... I bet that's fairly rare...
    im not sure if you know but you dont have to change anything internal to achieve 400hp witht the ls1. whichever way you go, be it rebuild or crate, you will have a fresh start. 375 with the true ls6 setup is right, but the ls6 cam is a mild cam. i say go for the less expensive route of either a rebuild or a regular old ls1 crate, do exhaust and the ls6 intake, and choose little more aggressive cam than the ls6 specs. change pushrods and rocker arms and maybe throw on an ls2 timing chain for good measure. hand port the heads or have it done, get a solid tune and voila!!!! 400 hp easy for the price of a crate ls6 IMO. im sure i forgot a few things but you get the picture....

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    Member danziger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScrapMaker View Post
    So what I'm getting out of this, is that there is no real reason to go with an actual LS6, unless I'm looking to keep/use the GM factory-warranty on a brand-new LS6? Seeing it's the same block, and uses the same exact sensors as my LS1, right?
    Correct. The block is pretty much the same. A warranty is good no matter where you get a motor done and most reputable shop will have one.

    It sounds like I should just have my LS1 rebuilt by a local shop, because then I won't have to deal with the EGR-delete... unless that's no big deal.
    EGR delete is as simple as a few strokes on the computer keyboard. You will most-likely get a tune anyway, so the shop can program the EGR out...

    So essentially, if I were to put on LS6-similar heads, intake, and cam-shaft, I would have around 400bhp? Or would I need to change all the internals? Pistons, lifters, etc?
    Yes. You could put the LS6 top-end on a stock LS1 and get AT LEAST 400CHP provided the engine was in good shape. My point is that you are wanting to get a rebuild anyway due to a possible bad bearing, so why not upgrade the internal while you're in there?

    Honestly, even a stock LS1 would be a vast improvement on this car... the fastest time I've gotten in the 1/4 mile is 14.0... with brand-new Khumo Ecstas... The engine feels fine, aside from a slight vibration that I've had for some time now.
    You could probably find a pulled stock LS1 cheap, but then it is anyone's guess as to how it was treated.

    If I had this motor rebuilt to stock LS1 specs, with aftermarket heads/intake/cam... could I easily get 400bhp, or would I need to make drastic changes to the internals?
    My stock bottom-end heads/cam LS1 made 436rwhp/420rwtq N/A with no exotic parts and a 234/236 nitrous cam. 400rwhp from heads/cam is easy anymore...

    I am going to call around to some specialty shops around here, but I honestly think they are going to charge me MORE to make my LS1 400hp, than it would be to just get an LS6 put in here, brand-new...
    The LS6 might be your best option insofar as quick-easy-warranty-turnaround time...

    Someone mentioned that an actual LS6 can put close to 375 to the ground... what could I get with a mild cam? No matter what I do, I want to maintain at least 17-19mpg city, and 22+ highway... that's already so damned low, I couldn't afford to go lower..
    I'd say in a stock auto F-body you'd be looking at around 350-360rwhp with a factory-spec 405HP LS6. With a mild cam like a TR224, I'll bet you'd be up around 370rwhp. Add in all the bolt-ons and more like 390rwhp...

    Although, if getting an LS6 to work is not all that difficult, that sure would be cool to say I had an LS6 under the hood... I bet that's fairly rare...
    No more difficult to drop in a LS6 than a LS1 and it would be very cool...
    Hope this helps and good luck whatever you choose. If it were my $5K, I'd spend $1000 getting your current short-block squared away (mild bore/hone, new bearings etc), $600 for a set of forged Diamond pistons, $1200 for a set of decent heads, $500 on a cam package, $300 on a LS6 intake and spend the rest on labor for removal/install. If you have anything left, buy headers or beer...

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